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Can we talk WR for a bit?


Da'Rick Rogers, WR, 6'3, 217
6.71 three cone which is spectacular for his size. Good for any size. Patriots love the three cone, not sure if they'll love the guy.
 
love rogers hopefully we could get him in the 3rd whether its at 91 or through a trade back getting him and one of wheaton/patton would be really good for this team another WR i really like is connor vernon from duke he'll be taken in the 5th most likely and if we trade down i hope we can get him
 
to me, ryan swope provides the best value
 
Did anyone catch the video from last week of Belichick saying that college receivers are hard to evaluate because the passing game between the college and NFL level are so different? Is it really that much different with a decent amount of college programs running pro style offenses now? If is really his opinion, you can see why they never would draft a receiver in the first round, if he thinks there's too much risk involved with a young player picking up their offense. Maybe that's why he's looking at Jones, Jenkins, and Amendola, and he thinks that evaluating receivers that have been in the league are much easier to evaluate than college players, we probably won't see them draft a receiver in the first few rounds, especially if they bring back Lloyd and/or Edelman.
 
How about Ace Sanders of South Carolina as a late round selection who can add extra value reurning kicks while learning the offense.

Sanders and Burkhead in the 7th, and I am happy!

Sanders is a great returner but the Pats just signed kick return specialist Leon Washington. I think they will prioritize receiving abilities in their WRs this year.

I'm partly basing this on the thought that New England will trade down a few times and acquire picks in the mid to later rounds as well. I also still expect them to take a WR although if they land Sanders, that may change where they take said WR.

- Stedman Bailey is expected to go around Round 3 to Round 4 so he's not really a "top" receiver. He has proven big play ability in that offense. He averaged 14.2 YPR in 2012 and 17.8 in 2011 so I'm not quite sure where the knock is coming from (but feel free to clarify for me).
- Marquise Goodwin I'm really high on, even if he's only 5'9. He's expected to be gone by Round 4 at the latest but possesses extremely rare deep speed (which NE fans have been clamoring for since at least 2005 it seems). If fans really want a legitimate deep threat at WR, nobody is best suited for that role than Goodwin in this year's draft regardless of size.

New England doesn't have any "smurfs" on the roster at WR if you were paying attention. If they bring in Emmanuel Sanders, he also is 5'11 and Julian Edelman is 5'10 if he's brought back.

Donald Jones = 6'0. Matt Slater = 6'0. Danny Amendola = 5'11. Jeremy Ebert = 5'11.

Good points about the height but none of those guys project as starters for us except for Amendola and 5'11 isn't exactly tall. Bailey in round 3, I'd probably consider but he plays the same position as DA, slot receiver. If Edelman comes back, I don't see us having room at the inn. We need an outside wideout.
 
Sanders is a great returner but the Pats just signed kick return specialist Leon Washington. I think they will prioritize receiving abilities in their WRs this year.

There's nothing wrong with Ace Sanders' receiving skills. I believe, purely in terms of receiving skills, that he's better than Tavon Austin. As for returning, he could do punt returns whilst Washington handles kickoffs.
 
If we could land Hunter then trade back for Swope I'd splooge.
 
This probably wont be very popular, but having looked back at these WR I really think Keenan Allen is overrated. I really think he is a slot WR in the NFL and I can't see what new element he would add to this offense. He has good hands and is excellent after the catch, but over 63% of his catches are made at less than 5 yards. And less than 4% of his catches were made over 20 yards, so he certainly doesn't stretch the defense with an average catch made 4.57 yards from the LOS. Statistically he is a huge red flag to me, but even more than that on tape I think he struggles getting separation on the outside. He works well over the middle with slants and short curls, but on the outside I think he gets eaten up by decent CB's, especially if they are physical at the line. We do need to take into account the poor QB play at Cal, but it still doesn't change the fact that he really hasn't shown very much in terms of being an outside WR in the NFL. And he isn't a freak athlete that you can dream on like Justin Hunter or Stephan Hill, so I really question his value and impact he would have on this team. I personally have him ranked as the 8th best WR in this draft for our needs and system (with Tavon Austin 9th). For other teams I would rank him higher, but for us I just don't see it.
 
Keenan Allen. If he's there somehow at 29, we can not pass on him. I would even consider trading up for him. In my opinion he's the safest bet at WR in the draft.
 
I think there is a lot of talent at WR in this draft, but Justin Hunter is the best fit for the patriots

Justin Hunter, 6'4'' 4.36 40, 39.5 vert, not the biggest hands, but is a big playmaker.

he's got the size and speed we need in an X receiver, but his cone isn't spectacular.
 
If we can get two 3s and pick up Rodgers and Goodwin I'd be supremely happy.
 
Keenan Allen. If he's there somehow at 29, we can not pass on him. I would even consider trading up for him. In my opinion he's the safest bet at WR in the draft.

Allen is my least favorite of the potential 1st round WR's. He's a short yardage/avg YAC guy and we have that in Amendola already. He may also have injury issues with the knee.

Guys like Hopkins and Wheaton are what's needed to stretch the field.

Reposting the link comparing these guys.

http://secondroundstats.com/2013/02/04/tier1-wrs/
 
Allen is my least favorite of the potential 1st round WR's. He's a short yardage/avg YAC guy and we have that in Amendola already. He may also have injury issues with the knee.

Guys like Hopkins and Wheaton are what's needed to stretch the field.

Reposting the link comparing these guys.

Tier 1 WRs: Allen, Patterson, Bailey and Hopkins, A Metrics Breakdown | Second Round Stats

Just because a WR isn't a blazer doesn't mean he's not any good. There's no reason at all Allen can't play the X in our offense the way David Givens and Brandon Lloyd did very effectively.

You can spend a much lower pick if all you want is a guy who can run fast. Hell, if Jeff Demps is still around, we already have the guy for that.

Allen (or Robert Woods) would help the offense tremendously, just in working the outside parts of the field. And Hopkins isn't a burner either.
 
Top Draft Prospect WR drop rate - min 40 targets

Red=boundary WR; Blue=slot type receiver
---player------------targets--------drop rate
Aaron Dobson .........92................0
Ace Sanders............73................0
Quinton Patton.......158................0.9
Tavon Austin.........145.................2.6
C. Patterson...........84..................4.2
Keenan Allen..........89..................4.7

Stedman Bailey......148.................5.0
Robert Woods........118.................5.0
Ryan Swope..........102.................5.3
T. Williams............151.................5.8
Deandre Hopkins....128.................5.8

Wheaton...............141.................8.2


Anything less than 6% is very good. Less than 2% shows incredible hands and concentration.
Dobson and Ace Sanders at 0% is other worldly. I'm surprised Hopkins came in with such a high drop rate; even more surprised Patterson's wasn't far higher.

Justin Hunter didn't make the top 15 w/ a 12% drop rate. Not good but he's still a good prospect in the late 2nd or 3rd round range.

I've read several places Robert Woods' ankle/foot problem isn't fully rehabbed and may take some time in the season to heal.

I'd love to get 1 boundary guy and 1 slot type guy (assuming Sanders doesn't get signed). We all have our favorites but in truth there's not a bad receiver mentioned above depending on where they're drafted. But they have to be drafted...please.
 
Thanks Chevss, no disrespect to the dearly departed WW but I want a WR who doesn't drop the damn thing as much as he did last year. So that number on Wheaton is very disappointing. Patton might be my favorite right now, that's a sick number for the number of targets he had. Wish he was a little speedier but he's just fast enough and had an above average 3 cone.
 
Just because a WR isn't a blazer doesn't mean he's not any good. There's no reason at all Allen can't play the X in our offense the way David Givens and Brandon Lloyd did very effectively.

You can spend a much lower pick if all you want is a guy who can run fast. Hell, if Jeff Demps is still around, we already have the guy for that.

Allen (or Robert Woods) would help the offense tremendously, just in working the outside parts of the field. And Hopkins isn't a burner either.

My problem is Allen hasn't really show the ability to play on the outside. He plays the majority of his snaps in the slot or or lined up tight to the line and works predominantly in the 0-5 yard area over the middle. I really haven't seen him run a lot of NFL routes on the outside and to be honest, what I have seen I was disappointed. In a different system I think he could be great, but I just don't see the fit here, he doesn't really offer anything too different to what we already have. Its a similar argument I see with people saying Amendola can play on the outside. Sure he can line up there, but he still does most of his work over the middle.

There are a bunch of other WRs in this draft that I would much prefer for our needs and system. Hopkins isn't a burner but he is still an excellent vertical WR with his size, physicality, body control and natural ability to track the deep ball. Hunter has great length and elite athleticism which give him huge upside. He is also one of the top WRs in this draft at working the intermediate routes both inside and outside. Wheaton, Patton and Williams are all field stretchers who offer different dimensions on the outside. Da'Rick Rogers is in my opinion the best WR in this class (combination of talent and pro readiness) but has major character issues that need to check out. It wouldn't surprise me to see him taken late in the 1st round if his character checks out. I think Robert Woods is similar to Allen in that he is better suited for the slot in the NFL, but I also think he offers much more versatility and more value than Allen. Now all of this is takes into account value as well. Do I think Allen is a better WR than Terrence Williams? Absolutely. But would I prefer to trade back and take Williams in the early/mid 3rd over Allen in the 1st? Absolutely.
 
Just because a WR isn't a blazer doesn't mean he's not any good. There's no reason at all Allen can't play the X in our offense the way David Givens and Brandon Lloyd did very effectively.

You can spend a much lower pick if all you want is a guy who can run fast. Hell, if Jeff Demps is still around, we already have the guy for that.

Allen (or Robert Woods) would help the offense tremendously, just in working the outside parts of the field. And Hopkins isn't a burner either.

I agree, size/speed is sexy but let's not become the Raiders. Reading some profiles on DeAndre Hopkins, he is a big strong player will amazing production.

6'1, 214
82 catches
1405 yards
17.1 average
18 TDS

DeAndre Hopkins, WR, Clemson, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
 
Anything less than 6% is very good. Less than 2% shows incredible hands and concentration.

Where did you get this data? This is obviously subjective since I've seen Austin documented with over a 4% drop rate. But it is useful in a relative sense across WRs.

Dobson and Ace Sanders at 0% is other worldly. I'm surprised Hopkins came in with such a high drop rate; even more surprised Patterson's wasn't far higher.

This is where you need to take the stats with a grain of salt. Dobson plays in Conference USA and Patton plays in the WAC (which amazingly still exists...check the schools playing in it next year, it is a hoot). It is a lot easier to catch a ball when you are running away from a slow 170 lb CB than it is to concentrate when you are battling to separate from Milliner.

Justin Hunter didn't make the top 15 w/ a 12% drop rate. Not good but he's still a good prospect in the late 2nd or 3rd round range.

Just another indicator that he may not be able to translate his elite skill set to commensurate production.

I'd love to get 1 boundary guy and 1 slot type guy (assuming Sanders doesn't get signed). We all have our favorites but in truth there's not a bad receiver mentioned above depending on where they're drafted. But they have to be drafted...please.

I think you are on the right track looking at drop rates. Another consideration I would submit is hand size. Just another data point (since anyone can have stone hands) but looking at your list:

Hopkins, Allen - 10"
Bailey - 9.9"
Patton - 9.4"
Woods - 9.3"
Austin, Wheaton - 9.1"
Patterson, Dobson - 9"
Sanders - 8.9"
Williams - 8.8"
Swope - 8.5"

Hopkins and Bailey are excellent at snatching the ball with their hands (Allen as well but I've seen less of him). Wheaton and Williams have smaller hands and catch with their body far too often. After dispatching Welker (who had degenerated to almost exclusively a body/low ball catcher) this offseason, I think the Pats need receivers with strong hands that can snatch the ball away from their body.

From a hands perspective, Hopkins is the guy to target in the early rounds. In the later rounds, you have:

Rodney Smith - 6'4", 225, 34.7" arms, 10.4" hands

I can't explain his middling production at Florida State. I just know that if you were going to build a WR, it would look like him. If he can find an opportunity with a good QB, I can see Smith being that guy you can't believe wasn't a first round pick.
 
Where did you get this data? This is obviously subjective since I've seen Austin documented with over a 4% drop rate. But it is useful in a relative sense across WRs.



This is where you need to take the stats with a grain of salt. Dobson plays in Conference USA and Patton plays in the WAC (which amazingly still exists...check the schools playing in it next year, it is a hoot). It is a lot easier to catch a ball when you are running away from a slow 170 lb CB than it is to concentrate when you are battling to separate from Milliner.



Just another indicator that he may not be able to translate his elite skill set to commensurate production.



I think you are on the right track looking at drop rates. Another consideration I would submit is hand size. Just another data point (since anyone can have stone hands) but looking at your list:

Hopkins, Allen - 10"
Bailey - 9.9"
Patton - 9.4"
Woods - 9.3"
Austin, Wheaton - 9.1"
Patterson, Dobson - 9"
Sanders - 8.9"
Williams - 8.8"
Swope - 8.5"

Hopkins and Bailey are excellent at snatching the ball with their hands (Allen as well but I've seen less of him). Wheaton and Williams have smaller hands and catch with their body far too often. After dispatching Welker (who had degenerated to almost exclusively a body/low ball catcher) this offseason, I think the Pats need receivers with strong hands that can snatch the ball away from their body.

From a hands perspective, Hopkins is the guy to target in the early rounds. In the later rounds, you have:

Rodney Smith - 6'4", 225, 34.7" arms, 10.4" hands

I can't explain his middling production at Florida State. I just know that if you were going to build a WR, it would look like him. If he can find an opportunity with a good QB, I can see Smith being that guy you can't believe wasn't a first round pick.


I remember everybody writing off Torrey Smith because he had small hands. I don't think it's relevant to see a college WR with great production and assume his drop rate is going to be different in the pros. Small-handed WRs have figured out how to compensate by this point.
 
I remember everybody writing off Torrey Smith because he had small hands. I don't think it's relevant to see a college WR with great production and assume his drop rate is going to be different in the pros. Small-handed WRs have figured out how to compensate by this point.

I agree. That is why I said it was just a single data point in the evaluation. Smith does have small hands but has a solid catch radius extended by his ability to elevate. But his key trait is the ability to run himself open. He is a moderate volume, high impact, low efficiency WR. That works for the Ravens so hand size is pretty irrelevant.

I don't see the same considerations for the Pats. The thing separating them from championships isn't a lack of big plays...it is a handful of key plays that they fail to convert in the playoffs. If Brady throws a pass to effectively end a game or extend a lead to comfortable margins, he needs receivers that just will not drop the ball. Bigger hands do not guarantee this, but on the whole it helps vs. the alternative.

There are clear exceptions to this (assume Steve Smith for the Panthers has smaller hands) but I attribute that to unique eyes and focus like Troy Brown had that is difficult to identify before playing in the NFL. Of the "smaller hands" guys (9" or under), who do you see as a good fit for the Pats?
 


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