Camp Battles: Special Teams

[BradyManny]

I just want to say these threads are great and have been a joy to read as the offseason has slowed down...

 

[bradmahn]

There are no other ST leaders. With the influx of youth into ST I would say Izzo's role is more important. Are you going to make Washington or Woods ST captain?

Why can't Washington be a captain? Last year he demonstrated that he certainly is willing to put the team ahead of his own goals and excelled at something many others would not have been happy with. And he did it better than the captain.

We don't need a special teams captain for the sake of having a special teams captain. Coaches are there to teach and the other players, if they are dedicated to their jobs and roles, can lead by example. They don't need to wear a C to do that.

That said, Izzo keeps making the team despite fans' annual predictions of his demise.

Different times, different situations. I have no problem with a player serving that one particular role, but if there are others who can do it just as well while developing into backups and starters (as well as being cheaper), I think that makes Izzo expendable.

 

[Rob0729]

Why can't Washington be a captain? Last year he demonstrated that he certainly is willing to put the team ahead of his own goals and excelled at something many others would not have been happy with. And he did it better than the captain.

I don't know what kind of a person Washington is, but being a playmaker does not make you a leader. Washington may or may not have the make up to be a captain. Both Bruschi and Seau were captains last year and neither were even close to be the best players on the defense. Being a captain is about experience and leadership over being the best player on the squad.

We don't need a special teams captain for the sake of having a special teams captain. Coaches are there to teach and the other players, if they are dedicated to their jobs and roles, can lead by example. They don't need to wear a C to do that.

I disagree. I do think that every aspect of the team needs a leader within the players ranks who can help motivate and lead the squad. It doesn't neccessarily have to be Izzo, but they do need a leader on special teams.

Different times, different situations. I have no problem with a player serving that one particular role, but if there are others who can do it just as well while developing into backups and starters (as well as being cheaper), I think that makes Izzo expendable.

Izzo only counts $491k against the cap. The least a player can count against the cap is $451k. There is no way to get a cheaper players against the cap. Even with the 51 man rule, cutting Izzo will save the Pats at most $40k against the cap.

 

[PatsFan37]

My understanding is that captains serve as ombudsmen for the players as well as conduits for information, so the coaches don't have to constantly query every player. Captains are elected by team members and tend to be the most respected and dedicated players who have leadership ability. Some, like Seau, are emotional leaders and others, like Seymour, are quieter.

I believe each unit needs at least one captain to facilitate that communication.

As for Izzo, he is still an effective STs player, but if keeping him would cost the Pats a young player who is almost as effective and has more potential either with STs or with the regular D or O, I think they'll cut him. They'll cut him or he'll retire sometime. This might be the year. As Rob0729 points out, it won't be for cap space. I agree, but it might for the roster spot.

 

[fgssand]

I ain't doing it. You do it. Hey, let's get Mikey! Hey Mikey!

I'm sure Rodney wouldn't be happy with this scenario, but he drinks the Patriots cool-aid and would do what it take to win a championship. I don't think he would be as happy to ride the bench and not play or be inactive on Sunday. But if Belichick or Pees told him that they were going to reduce his role a bit to be more effective, I don't think he would make a fuss.

I am hoping it is more of that "it takes until the second year to really recover from major knee surgery" as opposed to age. We'll know this pretty early on in camp....look for observations from writers and those attending that he looks younger and faster. I hope to see that for sure.

I do not think Paxton goes anywhere - it only takes one bad snap to ruin a season.....keep Lonnie, please.

The rest of the battles will surely play themselves out all through camp and will be the highlight of all the action.

METAPHORS.....you rock dude - thanks for all the posts.

 

[bradmahn]

Izzo only counts $491k against the cap. The least a player can count against the cap is $451k. There is no way to get a cheaper players against the cap. Even with the 51 man rule, cutting Izzo will save the Pats at most $40k against the cap.

This is simply not true.

Ruud's cap hit if he were to make the team, for example, is $295,000. Guyton's is $301,000, Eckel's is $381,720, and on and on. These are the players who are duking it out for special teams spots and the vast majority of the younger players who would be cut but who can hypothetically fulfill the same playing duties as Izzo come cheaper than his salary cap hit (and will see fewer real dollars). It's not a huge reason to go younger but it is not working in Izzo's favor, either.

Captain Intangibles can be replaced by a cheaper player who is just as (if not more so) productive and has upside. There are plenty of other veterans on this team who can fulfill his captaincy duties.

I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying there shouldn't be a special teams captain, just that there are a lot of players who can serve that role, not just Izzo (and that shouldn't be the reason we should keep him over a younger player).

 

[Leave No Doubt]

I think you can put Paxton in the lock category. I agree with the other locks. That makes 5 ST both Washington and Woods IMO will play more of a role this year (bold prediction but I bet Washington catches more passes this year and Woods seems to be coming along). Anyway I digress, that leaves a few more STs spots not many. Frontrunners Evans, Eckel (because they have played great STs for us in the past and one will stay for sure to be the FB) and Izzo (also because of his pat play). After that I am real interested to see what Slater and Aiken can offer to the unit.

Wow this position is really crowded. There are a lot of sters on this team that alot of us are real interested in. There are a lot of guys fighting for a few of the last positions on the team.

Agreed, and the battle of the ST's is going to be one of the most interesting of all! I'm dying to see how this shakes out. If all the pieces find their right places and come together... this secondary will rock:rocker: Homerism aside too.

 

[Leave No Doubt]

Metaphors, I just want to add my thanks for these analyses- just outstanding work, thanks again so much:rocker: They're written in a very understandable way, too btw-I've learned a lot from reading them and enjoyed them all! Great stuff, and great replies too!

 

[JSn]

Metaphors, I just want to add my thanks for these analyses- just outstanding work, thanks again so much:rocker: They're written in a very understandable way, too btw-I've learned a lot from reading them and enjoyed them all! Great stuff, and great replies too!

Same here. I've been excited to follow all of these threads and I'm always blown away by the people who can make these analyses for multiple teams, too.

 

[mgteich]

Pick Four

I think Ross might beat out Britt, but I'm fine with Britt and the rest of your 49. We need to pick four. I think we need to consider where we need further backups.
----------------------------------------------------
All the players below are potentially in contention for the final 4 spots. I would think Fafita (DL) and K. Smith (DL) also have a shot.

Locked Down Roster Spots
Cut or Traded: Cassel, Pollard, Ross, Mruczkowski, SThomas, LSanders, Aiken, Alexander
Battling for Inactive Spots:
RB: Eckel
TE: Spach, Stupar
LB: Ruud, Redd, Guyton
CB: Richardson, Wilhite

Final spots and adjustments up next...

 

[jeffbiologist]

There is alot of Slater talk but I see him and I think----Tony Gaiter. A good returner, but hard to justify anything but a PS guy. Maybe thinking has changed a bit now with Hester being what he is but I think not. Lets not forget Wheatley did this in college and is likely the inside choice.
Aiken is good, but how good will he be with this team? He and Washington might be competing for one spot. KW didnt even dress for several games last year, wasnt used as a reciever except in the preseason, and his pal Stallworth is gone(and so might be his motivation). This is NOT a ST leader/captain type of guy! And he has a relative BIG cap # too!(backup WR?) The only way I see both of them making it is if CJ comes in out of shape/blows a hammy again and/or is cut.
I think Redd/Ruud/Guyton/Alexander may be competing for one spot. As long as we keep Izzo around I think we might take a chance on a younger guy IF he shows the same upside as that guy from SMU last year(who the Boys plucked from the PS). One or 2 of these guys are on the PS.
This is a sink or swim year for Woods. We drafted 3 LBs, so he has to know they are gunning for his spot. I can see Crable leap-frogging him as a situational rusher, and would like to see him groomed as Izzo's replacement.
I think the last spot is usually a safety(Andrews/Mitchell), but I can see a tweener cb (Wilhite?)with upside being kept if he has speed.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

There is alot of Slater talk but I see him and I think----Tony Gaiter. A good returner, but hard to justify anything but a PS guy. Maybe thinking has changed a bit now with Hester being what he is but I think not. Lets not forget Wheatley did this in college and is likely the inside choice.

Ummm . . . you do know that Slater is a better returner (~29 YPR) than Wheatley (~24 YPR)? And, oh yes, the Pats actually traded up to grab him. If they don't expect him to make the roster--and they expect Wheatley to be their KR guy--why bother?

Aiken is good, but how good will he be with this team? He and Washington might be competing for one spot. KW didnt even dress for several games last year, wasnt used as a reciever except in the preseason, and his pal Stallworth is gone(and so might be his motivation). This is NOT a ST leader/captain type of guy! And he has a relative BIG cap # too!(backup WR?) The only way I see both of them making it is if CJ comes in out of shape/blows a hammy again and/or is cut.

Washington's cap hit is ~$880K, so that's not much of an issue. He was also active for 14 regular-season games, so I wouldn't call that an issue, either.

 

[patchick]

Slater also has experience at UCLA on coverage teams and losing Andrews makes Slater's skills even more needed.

Yep, and not merely "coverage experience" -- he was a standout gunner, which is no small thing.

Thanks again for all the genuine football talk, Metaphors!

 

[PatsFan37]

Aiken is good, but how good will he be with this team? He and Washington might be competing for one spot. KW didnt even dress for several games last year, wasnt used as a reciever except in the preseason, and his pal Stallworth is gone(and so might be his motivation). This is NOT a ST leader/captain type of guy! And he has a relative BIG cap # too!(backup WR?) The only way I see both of them making it is if CJ comes in out of shape/blows a hammy again and/or is cut.

From all the media reports last year, Washington and Stallworth were more rivals than pals.

As for leadership, my understanding is that despite being relegated to STs, Washington made a serious effort to stand out and give maximum effort. That's leading by example, and he did stand out on the field, making several big plays, at least one of which was game-changing. If you have a reason to believe why he's not the type of guy to lead, please say so. You're leaving me with no idea how you came to that conclusion.

As far as his cap #, that's a useless figure for accounting only. The relevant # is "cap room gained if released", which is $160,000. Not peanuts, but a lot less than the cap # and not a good reason to release him unless he's only barely ahead of his competition. Given that he was very good at STs and has at least some receiver experience (career 72 catches, 12.4 YPC), I think he's at the top of running for making the team both as a ST'er and a backup WR.

[binkie alert] And now I'll leave all logic behind and say that CJack better practice hard because Washington's going to be all over his *****, competing for that outside position.

Sheesh, I can't even type ***** (that's rear-end spelled with an 'a') without a mother-may-I. Picky, picky software.

 

[Metaphors]

Re: Pick Four

All the players below are potentially in contention for the final 4 spots. I would think Fafita (DL) and K. Smith (DL) also have a shot.

I'll include them in the final thread.

 

[Dragda]

I think you can put Paxton in the lock category. I agree with the other locks. That makes 5 ST both Washington and Woods IMO will play more of a role this year (bold prediction but I bet Washington catches more passes this year and Woods seems to be coming along). Anyway I digress, that leaves a few more STs spots not many. Frontrunners Evans, Eckel (because they have played great STs for us in the past and one will stay for sure to be the FB) and Izzo (also because of his pat play). After that I am real interested to see what Slater and Aiken can offer to the unit.

Wow this position is really crowded. There are a lot of sters on this team that alot of us are real interested in. There are a lot of guys fighting for a few of the last positions on the team.

feel Paxton is a lock. He seems to be a great locker room guy. While he only does one thing on the field, he may find other small intangible ways to cement his position. There are just so many things we can't see.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

This is simply not true.

Ruud's cap hit if he were to make the team, for example, is $295,000. Guyton's is $301,000, Eckel's is $381,720, and on and on.

To borrow from Miguel's page:

NFL Minimum Salary Levels for the 2008 season
Rookie - $295,000
1 Credited Season - $370,000
2 Credited Seasons - $445,000
3 Credited Seasons - $520,000
4 to 6 Credited Seasons - $605,000 *
7 to 9 Credited Seasons - $730,000 *
10+ Credited Seasons - $830,000 *


*All salaries for players with four or more years of experience AND who sign contracts that qualify for veteran's exemption will only count $445,000 (the minimum salary of a player with two credited seasons) against teams' salary caps.

So the only real exceptions are players in their first two years (excluding PS seasons).