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Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise


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re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Can't fault the guy for wanting to be with his family. That should come first.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

It was his grandfather and the issue was he remained away longer than the pre agreed time he was excused for without seeking additional permission. Just came back a day late.

You're right, his dad committed the murder/suicide the following Spring.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

I'm kind of annoyed that this guy doesn't have that desire for the ring in him. A few months away from his family is going to be that big of an issue?

Pretty sure Troy,Tedy,Rodney would suit up tomorrow if they could play.


**** it...why not pay the 4 mill to a guy that actually wants play? Carter would've looked awesome on that front line even if he might not be 100% atm.

the texans and cowboys have just as good of a shot at makeing the SB as the pats do so i wont say he has no desire for a ring and we dont know if that "4 million" was guaranteed... bottom line is im not saying he's right or worng but for a guy at the end of he's career to play one more year for he's home town team for maybe only one million less means more to him then it dose to us
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Similar leverage they used and perhaps are still employing in Welker's case. If they limit Waters use or don't start him he never sees any incentives. They did bring in Gallery on a $1.8M contract with $400K in signing bonus up front and they brought Koppen back on a 2 year deal with $350K in signing bonus up front which immediately resulted in freeing up Connolly to play guard if not center. Folks can cover their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears all they want but it's not like they haven't done some head scratching stuff this offseason geared towards getting younger and cheaper...and where they believe they can turning the vet into the backup or cutting him.

Bedard talked about a trust issue earlier on, and those usually cut both ways.

Folks can cover their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears all they want

Apparently, because you seem to keep doing it. Every single report except for Jeff Howe's (which was neutral) states the Pats really wanted Waters back and bent over backwards to accomodate him and his family commitments. It doesn't make sense that they would give him the summer off to be with his family and then try to screw with him.

Also, your logic about then "Welkering" him makes no sense. If the Pats did deactivate him to avoid paying him an incentive bonus, he could easily do what he is doing now is leave the Pats and go home and get paid $50-60k for three days worth of practice for that week. Why would the Pats even want to bring him back and the get desperate and offer him a substantial raise if they intended to play games with him and deactivate him.

Also, you argument about bringing in Gallery and Koppen so they could screw with Waters to do this youth movement and be cheaper makes no sense. First both those guys are clearly declining and would have been making more than Waters' deal before adjusted. Also, neither fit into a "youth movement" philosophy. Koppen is 33 and Gallery is 32. How is that a youth movement?
 
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re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

the texans and cowboys have just as good of a shot at makeing the SB as the pats do so i wont say he has no desire for a ring and we dont know if that "4 million" was guaranteed... bottom line is im not saying he's right or worng but for a guy at the end of he's career to play one more year for he's home town team for maybe only one million less means more to him then it dose to us

And I think that the reason the pats have not let him go is because the moment they did, he would sign with the texans. If that is the case, I have no problem with the pats parking his arse where it is parked now and leaving it there.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

My question is...if this was as early as it was.....wasn't there any OG out in FA that they could have signed for 4 million if Brian said thanks but no thanks?
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

$100K was his in house off season workout bonus which like many before him he didn't care to earn. Bedard reported that he seemed to be OK with the restructure when first approached. Maybe they should have had it drawn up and signed. I know this team often has a different view of what was agreed upon or what players were seemingly OK with than it turns out they did in reality. Mankins and Brady both immediately come to mind. In the end neither signed until they got what they really were OK with.

Neither Brady or Mankins had deals in place. There was an unsubstantiated report that the Pats and Mankins had a deal in place and he refused because he had to apologize to Kraft publicly which has been denied by both.

Either way, you are just making up stuff that has no basis in what has been reported. Fact of the matter is that no one has reported that Waters was upset about the restructuring just that he wants more money to come to play for the Pats and leave his family. And even then, there is no consensus that even if the Pats made a ludicrous offer for him to play that he would have.

The Pats could be in the wrong. Waters could be in the wrong. Neither can be in the wrong. The Pats could have insulted Waters. Waters could either have ridiculous demands or just doesn't want to play for the Pats under any price tag. Nothing has been reported by anyone that suggests any of this is definitely true. Most reports indicate the Pats were serious about having Waters back and accommodating to his situation.

All the other stuff being argued is made up BS.

BTW, him forgoing $100k so he doesn't have to leave his family seems to indicate it is less of a money issue why he isn't here and rather a family issue.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

WOW. Listen to the BS you are spewing. This is SMY we are talking about. She's proven that she's not one to kiss the teams arse. The Adalius Thomas reporting was proof of that. So, your claims that it's a "one sided report spun about how the poor team is attempting to bend over backwards and was just totally screwed over by the conniving player" schtick doesn't hold water.

How do you know she's not getting her information from Waters himself? You don't. None of us do. But it's pretty sad that you automatically defend Waters as if his garbage don't stink..

Sorry, Mo. But the only one doing any spinning on this is you. And nothing coming out supports any of your claims.

Here is what Shalise said...

As colleague Greg Bedard and I have previously reported, when Waters initially signed with New England last September, he and Bill Belichick had an agreement that Waters wouldn't have to take part in training camp or offseason work so that he could spend as much time as possible at home in Texas (he's a married father of five). That's not something that's going to be publicized because it is giving a veteran player special treatment.

OK, so that agreement pre-existed any discussion of restructure - ergo nothing to trade.

But New England fully expected that Waters would show up late in training camp.

Earlier in the year, Waters and the Patriots agreed to a modified contract structure but never officially signed off on it or it would appear to lower his base salary on the NFLPA site and have been reported by one of the many folks who keep tabs on that site for just that reason for this year that was to drop his base salary but offer per-game bonuses that would have put him at least to - and likely above - the $1.4 million base he originally signed for. [/b] Only he originally signed for more, $2.25M including $750K in for 2012 LTBE incentives.[/b] The expectation was he would show up late in training camp. Waters has been durable in his career, so he likely would have earned all of the money, if he were allowed to start, ask WW about how that works begging the question, why even go there with a player who missed 3 games in the last decade but New England was protected in case the 35-year old offensive lineman was injured. And a renegotiation such as that can't happen without the player agreeing to it. And had he agreed to it in writing, officially, it would have been reflected on the NFLPA site and we all would have heard about it - so that never happened. They may have talked and he may have initially seemed OK with the prospect and later realized that was a really stupid move for him to even consider even before they signed Gallery and Koppen for more base money than he was going to be getting.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

My question is...if this was as early as it was.....wasn't there any OG out in FA that they could have signed for 4 million if Brian said thanks but no thanks?

Something tells me that the pats assumed he would be in town by the end of August until it was too late.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

the texans and cowboys have just as good of a shot at makeing the SB as the pats do so i wont say he has no desire for a ring and we dont know if that "4 million" was guaranteed... bottom line is im not saying he's right or worng but for a guy at the end of he's career to play one more year for he's home town team for maybe only one million less means more to him then it dose to us

He can **** off and retire if that is what he is hoping for. NE gave him a shot and took him to his "first" career playoff win and to the SB and offered him extra cash for this season. If he wants to play he better man the **** up and have some loyalty.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Apparently, because you seem to keep doing it. Every single report except for Jeff Howe's (which was neutral) states the Pats really wanted Waters back and bent over backwards to accomodate him and his family commitments. It doesn't make sense that they would give him the summer off to be with his family and then try to screw with him.

Also, your logic about then "Welkering" him makes no sense. If the Pats did deactivate him to avoid paying him an incentive bonus, he could easily do what he is doing now is leave the Pats and go home and get paid $50-60k for three days worth of practice. Why would the Pats even want to bring him back and the get desperate and offer him a substantial raise if they intended to play games with him and deactivate him.

Also, you argument about bringing in Gallery and Koppen so they could screw with Waters to do this youth movement and be cheaper makes no sense. First both those guys are clearly declining and would have been making more than Waters' deal before adjusted. Also, neither fit into a "youth movement" philosophy. Koppen is 33 and Gallery is 32. How is that a youth movement?

Depends on your definition of bent over backwards I guess. The agreement that he not have to come in for camp or most of it was reached a year and a half ago when they signed the original deal. If he came in on the deal they wanted to restructure him to in mid August, he leaves his family for a month and risks injury for per diem only. He wouldn't know if he was going to be replaced until the game plan is installed, kinda like Wes.

Koppen and Gallery were younger than Waters, but in the end whose playing now? Those guys are a lot younger. Not better, but again using the Welker example, that doesn't seem to matter. Maybe if he had come in he'd be stuck on the bench behind Connolly or Thomas until they got desperate and in the meantime look like there is something wrong with him ala Welker.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Something tells me that the pats assumed he would be in town by the end of August until it was too late.

Then maybe he said...I'll think about it and prolonged the question of returning.

But I don't care what all of these 'sources' say....none are 100% reliable and there may never be an answer of which side was actually at fault here because Waters isn't going to talk to the media about it any time soon,nor is the F.O.

I sometimes chuckle when some here say that the reporters have no idea what is going on but once its in favor of the Pats,they are suddenly reliable sources :rofl:
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Here is what Shalise said...

You keep on saying that Waters would already get $2.25 million which isn't true. He already passed on a $100k workout bonus which brought it down to $2.15 million (according to Jason's site). We don't know how many of the LTBE bonuses he would get in original contract. Odds are that $750k in bonuses were already tied to playing time anyway which would be a wash in the revised deal.

So basically, if the max he could earn in the revised deal is $2.25 million, the Pats basically gave him the summer off and agreed to give him his workout bonus for not showing up as long as he played 16 games. In return, they lowered his base salary and increased his incentives.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

My question is...if this was as early as it was.....wasn't there any OG out in FA that they could have signed for 4 million if Brian said thanks but no thanks?

Per Shalise the $4M offer came in August during camp. And no, there was no OG FA worth that money still available at that time. Had the offer been made in March and he declined, then they probably could have persued viable alternatives although it's always hard to replace a pro bowl caliber player.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Depends on your definition of bent over backwards I guess. The agreement that he not have to come in for camp or most of it was reached a year and a half ago when they signed the original deal. If he came in on the deal they wanted to restructure him to in mid August, he leaves his family for a month and risks injury for per diem only. He wouldn't know if he was going to be replaced until the game plan is installed, kinda like Wes.

Koppen and Gallery were younger than Waters, but in the end whose playing now? Those guys are a lot younger. Not better, but again using the Welker example, that doesn't seem to matter. Maybe if he had come in he'd be stuck on the bench behind Connolly or Thomas until they got desperate and in the meantime look like there is something wrong with him ala Welker.

First, the fact that Gallery and Koppen are younger than Waters, that doesn't make them young. Both sucked in the preseason and Gallery admitted he had nothing left.

Second, the Pats never told him to come in mid August. They seemed to have every intention to honor the agreement of giving him the summer off. And the revised deal would have paid him the $100k signing bonus that he forgone to be with his family.

Third, you are pull crap out of your arse that the Pats would bench Waters. There is absolutely no evidence that they would. In fact, we don't even know why they have made Welker a back up. People assume it is some kind of petty punishment, but there has been no proof whatsoever that is the case.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

This isn't complicated.

The man likes spending time with his family, and prioritizes family over money.

It's honorable, to be honest. We whine and moan about athletes being all about the $$, when one finally steps up and says he'd forego some serious change just to be near his family - good for him. He's made his bank, he's had a long career, I hold no grudges.

I wish he had made the decision long ago; or rather, I ideally wish he arranged for his family & kids to spend the year in Massachusetts (did anyone try to sell Brian on our education system?), but so be it. It is what it is. Belichick was prepared for it, our depth on the interior is OK, at the moment it is being tested because of the Connolly situation, but we'll have to survive.
 
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re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

Per Shalise the $4M offer came in August during camp. And no, there was no OG FA worth that money still available at that time. Had the offer been made in March and he declined, then they probably could have persued viable alternatives although it's always hard to replace a pro bowl caliber player.



So the Pats offered him $4 million in August. I assume that was a base salary and not a salary plus incentives. Yet, you think the Pats were going to give him the veteran minimum base with incentives and then bench him to save money? Where is the logic in that?
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

You keep on saying that Waters would already get $2.25 million which isn't true. He already passed on a $100k workout bonus which brought it down to $2.15 million (according to Jason's site). We don't know how many of the LTBE bonuses he would get in original contract. Odds are that $750k in bonuses were already tied to playing time anyway which would be a wash in the revised deal.

So basically, if the max he could earn in the revised deal is $2.25 million, the Pats basically gave him the summer off and agreed to give him his workout bonus for not showing up as long as he played 16 games. In return, they lowered his base salary and increased his incentives.

He may be entitled to that $100K yet if their original deal stipulated it. Ty Law used to get his $250K without participating in house... We do know if he remained the starter he would get them all because he got all of his incentives which were double that last season. That is what LTBE means, likely to be earned based on you earned them last season. They were asking him to make another $500K of his base salary LTBE. As Jason pointed out, that saved them nothing on the cap but might have saved them something in cash if he was injured (or simply didn't start). The FO wasted three times that on players it ultimately cut (so far this season).
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

This isn't complicated.

The man likes spending time with his family, and prioritizes family over money.

It's honorable, to be honest. We whine and moan about athletes being all about the $$, when one finally steps up and says he'd forego some serious change just to be near his family - good for him. He's made his bank, he's had a long career, I hold no grudges.

I wish he had made the decision long ago; or rather, I ideally wish he arranged for his family & kids to spend the year in Massachusetts (did anyone try to sell Brian on our education system?), but so be it. It is what it is. Belichick was prepared for it, our depth on the interior is OK, at the moment it is being tested because of the Connolly situation, but we'll have to survive.

I agree. From the reports, it looks the Pats really wanted Waters back and was willing to pay him to come back, but Waters just prioritized his family over money. I don't get why people are making this into some kind of conspiracy that the Pats were trying to screw with him in some way.
 
re: Brian Waters turned down "significant" pay raise

He may be entitled to that $100K yet if their original deal stipulated it. Ty Law used to get his $250K without participating in house... We do know if he remained the starter he would get them all because he got all of his incentives which were double that last season. That is what LTBE means, likely to be earned based on you earned them last season. They were asking him to make another $500K of his base salary LTBE. As Jason pointed out, that saved them nothing on the cap but might have saved them something in cash if he was injured (or simply didn't start). The FO wasted three times that on players it ultimately cut (so far this season).

Again, the Pats were willing to pay $4 million to the guy. This other stuff is irrelevant. $4 million for a 36 year old guard is good money. He just doesn't want to play in New England and leave his family. You are making a conspiracy where there is none.
 
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