Branch vs Graham

[DaBruinz]

1. I say Branch is more valuable.
2. Graham - 2.5Mill, Branch - 4.9Mill
3. Graham - You can find a good blocking TE with mediocre hands in the 3rd round.
Branch - Branch is a legit weapon, and only a few WR's out of hundreds in the league can produce in big games.
4. Cost of replacement...I don't know the franchise tag #'s, but in terms of draft picks, a Grahambo-talent could be found in later rounds of a draft while a Branch talent is found in early rounds.
5. I would rather extend Branch, and sign a FA TE or draft a TE who will make half a mill and do the same things as Graham did.
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Graham has better than mediocre hands. Guess you have been MIA the last 2 years.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Graham's value has diminished since we upgraded our O-Line.

If you had asked me two years ago, I would have said absolutely re-sign Graham, because of his ability to help with pass protection and run blocking.

I fail to see a proven upgrade at LT or RT that will eliminate the need for TE help against the top handful of NFL pass rushers. Has Light gotten mysteriously faster post injury?

BB values VERSITILITY and Graham is able to block AND catch passes.

-phil (Can't belive I'm posting this having lambasted Graham 'clueless & hands of stone' in his 1st training camp)

 

[Flying Fungi]

I am pro Graham first.

Branch is eminently more replaceable than Daniel Graham. Much better value at a much more important position in the Belichick scheme.

 

[DaBruinz]

On the contrary, I think VERY highly of Piolichick. I'm a big Kool-Aid drinker. However, I try not to let the Kool-Aid cloud my opinions of players.

Just because they moved up 13 picks doesn't mean Graham is a legit 1st round talent. Remember the Pats took Bethel Johnson in the 2nd round, and he has turned into a 5th round talent at best.

I think Piolichick makes choices based on context as well as value. Maybe they took Graham because they knew their O-Line would need help for a few years, and they didn't like the O-Line players available to them.

In terms of current context, our O-Line is strong now, and we have good backups who can also play fullback or TE. I do not see as great a need for Graham in pass protection now.
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I guess you have seen some games that the rest of us haven't. Because the line hasn't proven to be stronger, YET. There are still question marks at Center, LT and RT. And, what I means is:
1) Will Light be back and healthy. Reports are yes. However, it remains to be seen how strong his leg will be.
2) Who will be the LT? Will it be Light or Kaczur. Kaczur, from what I saw, played better than Light did when Light was a rookie.
3) Will Gorin be the RT? Or will the remainder of Kaczur/Light take it. Where will Wesley Britt and Ryan O'Callaghan fit in?
4) Will Koppen be ready for the season? Will his shoulder be OK? If not, will Hochstein be the starter and who will back him up?

You have a faulty opinion of Graham in regards to his hands. As I pointed out in another thread, Graham only had 2 drops in 2004 and 1 in 2005. That is hardly mediocre. Especially considering that he spent much of the time helping the O-line because of the injuries. Another note. Since 2000, the Patriots have had to use 4 OTs every year with most of the issues coming at RT.

 

[maverick4]

re

Graham has better than mediocre hands. Guess you have been MIA the last 2 years.

He's pretty decent running after the catch, but when covered or in traffic, he still has problems with his hands. Also, he is injury-prone.

Sometimes it's hard to see the truth through Kool-Aid glasses.

 

[mcsully]

Graham's value has diminished since we upgraded our O-Line.

If you had asked me two years ago, I would have said absolutely re-sign Graham, because of his ability to help with pass protection and run blocking.

Yes our OL should be better this year.. But after seeing the OL fall apart due to injuries, Graham value was at an all time high for his blocking..
And I don't have a warm feeling about our RT situation..

 

[DaBruinz]

Huh only Vernon Davis might be as good as Graham? Okay I think you been drinking a bit too much koolaid because you're vastly overrating Graham imo. Graham has his strengths and his weaknesses. His strength is his blocking. His weakness is his catching. Graham is simply not an impact tight end in the passing game. His hands are too inconsistent. I know the Pats drafted Graham with high hopes a few years back but he is clearly in the second tier of tight ends in the league. He is not up there with the Gates and the Gonzales.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Graham's hands have been as good as Branch's the last 2 years. You people need to stop living in the distant past.

 

[DaBruinz]

He's pretty decent running after the catch, but when covered or in traffic, he still has problems with his hands. Also, he is injury-prone.

Sometimes it's hard to see the truth through Kool-Aid glasses.

Oh yes. The old " Kool-aid glasses " insult. Typical of someone who wants to ignore facts and not deal with reality. Graham has been very good in traffic. And I gave you the stats on his drops for the last 2 years.

He's been injury prone because the last 2 years he's had to regularly go up against DEs that are 260-310 lbs. He's 255 or so. You don't think that is going to take a toll on your shoulders?

OH, and if Graham is injury prone, then so is Watson and so is Branch.

So, now what is your argument? Do you want to make something else up?

 

[dryheat44]

This is probably the best thread I've read in about a week that actually had to do something with football playing..

Are you serious about your comment or just trying to make a point.. I agree I want an all around TE but A perso who can catch 90 balls moves the offense a lot more.. Either way, I like Graham and hope he stays..

..

The point is that neither Gonzalez, Gates, or any other TE in this offense is catching 90 balls. Graham caught 30 and 38 balls in the two seasons before last. Watson caught 29 last year. How many would Gonzo or Gates catch? Less than 60. So we'd be putting a de facto WR on our lineup to take 30 catches from our WRs and RBs, and losing the blocking that opens holes and keeps Brady upright.

 

[mcsully]

Also, he is injury-prone.

Sometimes it's hard to see the truth through Kool-Aid glasses.

My Ray-Bans are just perfect
Sometimes people like to just type to see their post count go up

I'm going to use something that usually scares people stats..
Here we go

Graham is not injury prone.. He has played TWO less games then branch.

Graham has 15 career tds, branch has 14 (and this doesn't include Graham being required to block most of last year because of the injuries).

Graham holds onto the ball and doesn't fumble.. Only 1 career fumble. Branch has 2. Both hold the ball well.. Graham's repsonsibilites are many. ANd yes sometimes he has the mental lapse and drops a cathable ball but he makes up for it by being a team player and doing the dirty work..

I love both players and hope we keep both.. But the debate to get rid of one over the other isn't clear cut..

 

[spacecrime]

JoeSixPat, it seems we are the only two who think Graham is replaceable. .

No, both are replacable. The question was about value to the team to keep Graham and the cost to replace Branch, vs the cost to keep Branch and replace Graham.

 

[mcsully]

The point is that neither Gonzalez, Gates, or any other TE in this offense is catching 90 balls. Graham caught 30 and 38 balls in the two seasons before last. Watson caught 29 last year. How many would Gonzo or Gates catch? Less than 60. So we'd be putting a de facto WR on our lineup to take 30 catches from our WRs and RBs, and losing the blocking that opens holes and keeps Brady upright.

I totally agree with you on your facts.. In our system they wouldn't catch 90 balls. But I still would take them.. They are the best in their class.

 

[maverick4]

re

Oh yes. The old " Kool-aid glasses " insult. Typical of someone who wants to ignore facts and not deal with reality.

Oh, and if Graham is injury prone, then so is Watson. So, now what is your argument? Do you want to make something else up?

Funny, the Kool-Aid phrase was used to describe your blind man-love for Graham, but obviously you missed the point. I'm pretty sure I've seen just as many, or more, games than you have, so please spare me with your 'you must have been out of the loop' jabs.

Over the past four seasons, Graham has played 11, 14, 14, and 11 games. He has caught 15, 38, 30, 16 passes. Our O-Line is stacked, and Watson may overtake Graham as a better TE this year.

It's simply a difference of opinion. I don't think Graham is worth 2.5+ Million a year, and I've said why (injury prone, better O-Line now, Watson improving, and average hands).

By the way, I respect your man-love for Graham, but I don't respect the abrasive manner in which you talk with people who disagree with you.

 

[dryheat44]

I totally agree with you on your facts.. In our system they wouldn't catch 90 balls. But I still would take them.. They are the best in their class.

By the way, I was pulling stats and came across Graham's numbers from 2004.

2004 New England Patriots 14 14 30 364 12.1 48 7 6 1 20

That's 30 catches, for a 12.1 yard average with seven touchdowns. Combined with his blocking, that's a great season for a tight end. It's hard to imagine a better one in our high-distribution offense.

 

[maverick4]

re

Yes our OL should be better this year.. But after seeing the OL fall apart due to injuries, Graham value was at an all time high for his blocking..
And I don't have a warm feeling about our RT situation..

I hear what you're saying, and I agree that our tight end will always have to be able to block, in case of those types of protection situations.

Part of my rationale, that I haven't brought up, is that I feel Ben Watson will become a more complete TE. Watson is fast and strong, but he can also block.
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[ilduce06410]

I hear what you're saying, and I agree that our tight end will always have to be able to block, in case of those types of protection situations.

Part of my rationale, that I haven't brought up, is that I feel Ben Watson will become a more complete TE. Watson is fast and strong, but he can also block.
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watson a more complete TE? undoubtedly. last year waas reall his rookie year, and he doesn't get a more traditional number of snaps becaus of graham and fauria.
we ask our TE to block, and we want our TB to block too. it was funwatching corey mess up some high-priced pass rushers. when faulk was in there i had to cover my eyes.

 

[DaBruinz]

Funny, the Kool-Aid phrase was used to describe your blind man-love for Graham, but obviously you missed the point. I'm pretty sure I've seen just as many, or more, games than you have, so please spare me with your 'you must have been out of the loop' jabs.

Too bad its not blind love for Graham. Its called respect. And if you had truly seen as many or more games as I had, you wouldn't be spewing the stupid Graham has mediocre hands garbage. That is why you get the "out of the loops jabs." And, no, I didn't miss your "point." Your point was irrelevant so it was ignored.

Over the past four seasons, Graham has played 11, 14, 14, and 11 games. He has caught 15, 38, 30, 16 passes. Our O-Line is stacked, and Watson may overtake Graham as a better TE this year.

More assumptions on your part. How do you KNOW the O-line is stacked? I brought up 4 very valid questions and you ignore them. Why? I don't know. I won't assume its ignorance, but you can prove it one way or the other.

Graham, the last 2 years, has had to play as an extra Offensive lineman way too many times. That is something you have yet to acknowledge. And that has led to injuries.

It's simply a difference of opinion. I don't think Graham is worth 2.5+ Million a year, and I've said why.

By the way, I respect your man-love for Graham, but I don't respect the abrasive manner in which you talk with people who disagree with you.

Whatever dude. You can throw around your assumptions and insults all you want. It shows your own arrogance.

There is no man-love for Graham. Its called respect for what he has accomplished and what he's done to help this team any way he could. He came out of school as a highly touted pass catching TE who had issues with his blocking. The first 2 years, the Pats focused him on learning to block and then learning to pass catch after blocking. The last 2 years, he's spent a majority of the time having to help out the RTs, whether it be Gorin, Ashworth, Klemm, or Kaczur (though Kaczur wasn't getting a lot of help by the end of the year). I understand that all-around TEs get banged up when they are asked to regularly block DEs. Its happened to Bubba Franks and Todd Heap. Guys who Graham is nearly as good as. You can think that Graham is easier to replace than Branch. I don't care. But you do yourself a major injustice by ignoring what Graham has done to help this team.

 

[JoeSixPat]

How on earth has Branch become irreplaceable? I respect your opinion on the matter, but he's A LOT more replaceable than Graham. Which is easier to find via draft, trade, or free agency: A dominant blocking tight end who is also an athletic playmaker, or a starting calibre wide receiver?

I just don't get it. In this year's draft there was one TE who could be as good as Graham. That's Davis. He went, what, sixth overall?

There are several receivers in every draft that might be able to replace Branch as a #1 WR. We probably have one on our team.

In Belichick's world, other than big athletic defensive linemen, athletic block and catch tight ends take priority, because they're hard to find.

Why would anyone assume that just because I consider Graham replaceable, that I consider Branch irreplaceable?

But post a poll as to whether Branch is a higher priority than Graham and I think you'll be disappointed if you're expecting Branch to lose that fan ballotting.

As to whether its "easier" to find a #1 WR or a blocking TE - information that you were kind enough to post leading up to the draft suggests that finding a #1 WR is more difficult than a #2 TE.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2006/04/24/ramblings/nfl-draft/3828/

Scroll down to WR1 - 45% of #1 WRs with the team that drafted them are drafted in the 1st round and you can see the rest of the distribution. #1 WRs are what this analyis terms "top heavy" in that you have to draft in the 1st or 2nd round to find a #1 WR.

Scroll down to TE - and these include top tier TEs - the ones that get $3, $4, $5 million a year such that anyone here believes Graham should command such salaries (and if you want to resign him, and believe as good or better than the following - here's what a few of the other TEs in the league get, so that you know what Graham would likely expect --- and keep in mind these are pre-new CBA salaries... as with WR there will be significant inflation with the new higher cap

Tony Gonzalez, K.C. $4,831,370; Kellen Winslow, Cle. $3,599,375; Kyle Brady, Jack. $3,146,250; Jeremy Shockey, N.Y. Giants $2,685,000; Alge Crumpler, Atl. $2,372,533; Jim Kleinsasser, Minn. $2,350,000; Eric Johnson, S.F. $2,200,000; Jerame Tuman, Pitt. $2,142,500)

TEs are very clearly in the "normal" range of distrubution in the draft... plenty of 1st round success stories - but plenty of later round success stories as well.

I found all that information supplied by dryheat VERY informative before the draft and it helped solidify my feeling that we should expend a high draft pick on Jackson, as the statistics clearly support that its difficult to find a #1 WR outside of the 1st 2 rounds.

In this case it also shows that starting TEs are found in a normal draft distribution - in the high middle and even lower round picks.

So basically dryheat - your own pre-draft post is what I'm using to show that a TE is more replaceable than a #1 WR - and I think that's common sense even without the stats to back me up - but there there for you if you need them

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't believe that Graham or Branch have proven that they are in the Top 10 at their respective positions.

However, Graham, is by far, the more complete player. He plays on Special Teams and in the regular offense. He has regularly been called upon to pick up the slack from the O-line. And that has affected his health and his pass-catching ability. And that should mean something when evaluating him. Obviously, it doesn't to some people.

I could easily see Graham as a 1.5-2 million a year TE. I can not see Branch as a 6-8 million a year receiver. Not in the Pats offense. And not with him having to miss pre-season to stay healthy.

Both are "injury prone" and have missed significant amounts of time over their 4 year careers.

 

[maverick4]

re

More assumptions on your part. How do you KNOW the O-line is stacked? I brought up 4 very valid questions and you ignore them. Why? I don't know. I won't assume its ignorance, but you can prove it one way or the other.

Graham, the last 2 years, has had to play as an extra Offensive lineman way too many times. That is something you have yet to acknowledge. And that has led to injuries.

Tone down the attitude.

I ignored your points about the O-Line, because I don't have injury concerns about the offensive line. Freak accidents happened; Light and Koppen have been durable otherwise. We also have two solid 2nd year players, and a few solid backups as well. How can you worry so much about the health of the O-Line, and at the same time completely ignore all of the injuries and games missed by Graham? Also, how can you completely dismiss Watson or our RB's ability to pass-protect as well, or Brady's ability to avoid the rush and get off passes quickly?

I haven't under-acknowledged Graham's contributions to the team. He has helped protect the right side for years, to the detriment of his body. I am merely putting his skills and future contributions into perspective. Graham is a second-tier tight end who should be paid accordingly. I don't think he has done enough to justify a first-tier tight end salary.
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