Brady vs. Manning

[mgteich]

Re: Brady VS Manning: Three weeks in.

So, stats only matter when Brady is ahead? It does NOT matter. BTW, I think Pennington is ahead of Manning. So what!

Brady and Manning are GREAT quarterbacks, among the best of all-time. They both have great teams behind them. What is important in distinguishing them is leadership in winning in the regular season, the playoffs, and the SB.

 

[Sivy]

Finaly, i find a place with fellow Pats fans.

This debate never gets old to me.

It's like Hogan and Andre

Jay-z and nas

Jordan and Bird

Lebron and Anthony

 

[mossdeep]

I'll go with Peyton. His commercials are better.

 

[Sivy]

I'll go with Peyton. His commercials are better.

ha

I always said that manning could retire from football and become an actor. Those freaking commercials are darn funny.

Back to football.

I honestly gotta say that Brady is hands down the best qb in the nfl right now. At first I was thinking that the colts are the only threat to them this year, but after comparing 38-14, 38-14 and 38-7 wins, to the colts sneaking by the last 2 weeks, I dont think its much of a threat anymore. I just dont see how anyone can stop the brady-moss combo.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't really understand your logic. Manning is far and away better than both Tarkenton and Unitas. Elway's career passer rating is under 80. In my opinion Brady, Montana, and Manning are all in one class and then there's everyone else. I think Favre is a great player, but a little overrated.

You are as entitled to your opinion as the next man, no matter how wrong you clearly are.

 

[jaytyme]

note to sivy:

the pats snuck by teams on their way to 3 lombardi torophies while the colts were blowing out everyone.......except us.

re. brady v manning.......petyon has been throwing to filet mignon for virtually his whole carrer.......brady has been throwing to dog meat that he has made look like sirloin(no offense intended to branch, givens, brown et.al.).
everyone should wonder what the numbers would look like had they both been throwing to similar talent all these years

no fact is uglier than this one: the colts have stomped on us 3 times in a row and i will consider them champions until we lay the wood to 'em in indy on week 9 and again in fowborough for the AFC crown.

 

[FSUPatsFan]

You are as entitled to your opinion as the next man, no matter how wrong you clearly are.

Okay, I'm clearly wrong. Why don't we take a straw pole of this message board and see who most people agree with. Manning has played half as long as both Tarkenton and Unitas and has already put up comparable numbers. He's 10 tds behind Unites and has thrown 110 less interceptions. He's also won as many titles as Unitas. He'll also pass Unitas in career yards by the end of this season. Tarkenton QB rating was around 80. Although he is a much better scrambler than Manning, I still feel Manning is a better QB.

The reason I didn't understand your logic was that you had 5 QBs ahead of Manning, one of which was Brady, and most fans probably feel Manning is a better QB (I am not one of them). I know your reasoning can't be championships because Unitas had 1 and Tarkenton and 0. Sure, he went to 4 superbowls, but Manning would probably have gone to at least 3 if it wasn't for that guy named Brady.

You are entitled to your opinion. I was just trying to understand your logic of why you had 5 QBs clearly ahead of Manning. I feel that putting Manning in the same class as Favre is an insult to Manning. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't make me clearly wrong.

 

[He Ban Me]

Okay, I'm clearly wrong. Why don't we take a straw pole of this message board and see who most people agree with. Manning has played half as long as both Tarkenton and Unitas and has already put up comparable numbers. He's 10 tds behind Unites and has thrown 110 less interceptions. He's also won as many titles as Unitas. He'll also pass Unitas in career yards by the end of this season. Tarkenton QB rating was around 80. Although he is a much better scrambler than Manning, I still feel Manning is a better QB.

The reason I didn't understand your logic was that you had 5 QBs ahead of Manning, one of which was Brady, and most fans probably feel Manning is a better QB (I am not one of them). I know your reasoning can't be championships because Unitas had 1 and Tarkenton and 0. Sure, he went to 4 superbowls, but Manning would probably have gone to at least 3 if it wasn't for that guy named Brady.

You are entitled to your opinion. I was just trying to understand your logic of why you had 5 QBs clearly ahead of Manning. I feel that putting Manning in the same class as Favre is an insult to Manning. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't make me clearly wrong.

I second this. WTF is this guy telling people they are "wrong". It's all OPINION. With no possible way to come up with a correct answer. How can you separate these guys?

Brady
Elway
Favre
Manning
Marino
Moon
Staubach
Tarkington
Unitas

Seriously, they are all great.

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

Brady and Manning will both retire among the 5 greatest of all time.

The other 3 being?

Unitas
Elway
Favre
Marino
Montana

I just cannot conjure up a mental picture of Manning where he isn't whinning to refs.......

 

[Sivy]

note to sivy:

the pats snuck by teams on their way to 3 lombardi torophies while the colts were blowing out everyone.......except us.

re. brady v manning.......petyon has been throwing to filet mignon for virtually his whole carrer.......brady has been throwing to dog meat that he has made look like sirloin(no offense intended to branch, givens, brown et.al.).
everyone should wonder what the numbers would look like had they both been throwing to similar talent all these years

no fact is uglier than this one: the colts have stomped on us 3 times in a row and i will consider them champions until we lay the wood to 'em in indy on week 9 and again in fowborough for the AFC crown.

You bring up a vailid point. I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Brady Sr. said that his son stresses him out when he watches him play because he always has to win at the last second, it's never a blow out. I dont know what happened last year at the afc championship game, the only explination I can think of is the colts viewed the tape they had of the pats signals at half time (joking). But yea, the colts are the world champions right now, and I respect them. I just dont think this years game is going to have the same results as the last 3 meetings.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I have long believed and continue to believe that Peyton Manning is more accurate than Tom Brady. He's the most accurate passer I can remember over my 40+ years of watching football.

This year, Tom Brady has been extremely accurate - amazingly accurate based on his previous history. Do you remember the threads after 3 games last year? OK, the threads I'm referencing were on another Pats message board, but surely the same threads were here as well. What has happened to Tom Brady? What kind of throws were those? And many similar questions. One poster brought us back to reality noting that his numbers at that point were eerily similar to his career numbers. Perhaps his inaccuracy wasn't an anamoly?

I re-watched every pass Tom Brady made in each of those games and rated them. I was less than impressed with his accuracy; a number of passes just very badly thrown. A few of them could have been because of a route miscommunication (many passes get thrown even before the break), but a number of them couldn't be assigned to that.

What's happened this year when he is *so* accurate, even on that nemesis of his, the long downfield pass (which were often 5 yards over- or under-thrown)? Better receivers definately help, but I can't believe that it makes him that much more accurate. His 1 pick this year was throwing behind a receiver and having the ball tipped, something that happens to all QBs. But only once?

TB has been crazy good this year; I don't expect it to continue. I fully expect he'll beat his career averages this year, probably by a lot. But don't be surprised if 8 or 10 games into the season, TB is making more mistakes and people start saying, "What's wrong with TB?" The answer just may be that, despite a string of fantastic games, he's coming more down to earth and playing closer to the baseline he's established over his career.

All that being said, TB is clearly a better leader and has, historically, been a much better clutch player than PM. He does the best job in the NFL of sideslipping the rush (the anti-Bledsoe) and consistently makes good decisions (but so does Peyton). That, IMO, is a reasonable case for putting Tom Brady above Peyton. But I'd never do it on the accuracy of his throws.

 

[ColtsTroll]

You are as entitled to your opinion as the next man, no matter how wrong you clearly are.

Put the glue stick down.

 

[NEPat]

I have long believed and continue to believe that Peyton Manning is more accurate than Tom Brady. He's the most accurate passer I can remember over my 40+ years of watching football.

Manning is more accurate. Career, he is 64%, and Brady is about 62%. I don't think that's a huge difference, but yeah Manning is more precise.

Last year wasn't Brady's career worst, accuracy wise.

We get spoiled, I think. Anything over 60 is good.

TB has been crazy good this year; I don't expect it to continue. I fully expect he'll beat his career averages this year, probably by a lot. But don't be surprised if 8 or 10 games into the season, TB is making more mistakes and people start saying, "What's wrong with TB?" The answer just may be that, despite a string of fantastic games, he's coming more down to earth and playing closer to the baseline he's established over his career.

I am absolutely sure it won't continue. He's not going to be throwing 80% all year. He'll have his bad games, including the usual 4 INT game in Miami p ) and we'll all be in hysterics.

But I agree that this will be a career year, stats wise.

 

[FrontSeven]

In a way I want to reply, "Ho, Hummmmm".

In another way I realize the need to compare all animate and inanimate objects on the planet at one time or another.

Let's not worry ourselves over Colts trolls though. If they're trolls, they're trolls. If they're serious fans they realize that both cities/regions are living in a golden age of football. This is it. It doesn't get better than this, and our two guys are both necessary to make the golden age. What was Bird without Magic, and Magic without Bird? You have to have somebody at your level who is hounding and chasing you and pushing you to do your best. These two guys are Elway and Montana.

I also think that you can parse stats until you're blue in the face but one thing you can never fully appreciate is how much the receivers and coaches and OL contributed to the QB stats or championships. Nobody goes out there alone and does all that. I understand that Peyton has had his receivers over the years and all that. Fine, but we had the defense and the coaching. So it's a wash. They're both at the top of the sport 1 and 2 no matter which one is 1 and which one is 2.

I think it's weak to boil all this complex team sport stuff down to "If you want championships you want Brady ......" etc. That is just too weak. We don't need slogans. These guys are too good for slogans. Remember the slogans about Peyton not being able to beat the Patriots? What rubbish. Remember the slogans about Elway "not being able to win the big one"? What rubbish. I suggest looking at it with an appreciation of the complexity of the team sport, and stop trying to one-up trolls with meaningless slogans.

 

[The Gr8est]

In a way I want to reply, "Ho, Hummmmm".

In another way I realize the need to compare all animate and inanimate objects on the planet at one time or another.

Let's not worry ourselves over Colts trolls though. If they're trolls, they're trolls. If they're serious fans they realize that both cities/regions are living in a golden age of football. This is it. It doesn't get better than this, and our two guys are both necessary to make the golden age. What was Bird without Magic, and Magic without Bird? You have to have somebody at your level who is hounding and chasing you and pushing you to do your best. These two guys are Elway and Montana.

I also think that you can parse stats until you're blue in the face but one thing you can never fully appreciate is how much the receivers and coaches and OL contributed to the QB stats or championships. Nobody goes out there alone and does all that. I understand that Peyton has had his receivers over the years and all that. Fine, but we had the defense and the coaching. So it's a wash. They're both at the top of the sport 1 and 2 no matter which one is 1 and which one is 2.

I think it's weak to boil all this complex team sport stuff down to "If you want championships you want Brady ......" etc. That is just too weak. We don't need slogans. These guys are too good for slogans. Remember the slogans about Peyton not being able to beat the Patriots? What rubbish. Remember the slogans about Elway "not being able to win the big one"? What rubbish. I suggest looking at it with an appreciation of the complexity of the team sport, and stop trying to one-up trolls with meaningless slogans.

Nice first effort, welcome to the board! I agree, the Brady vs Manning comparisons are tedious. They are both first ballot HOF QBs. We are so fortunate to have them to watch and to be involved in such a great rivalry with the Colts. These are indeed the "golden years", and I hope we don't have to wait until they are gone to appreciate them.

Being a longtime Pats follower I can never forget the worst I have felt as a fan. It isn't when we lose a tough game to a quality opponent, it's the times when we weren't even significant enough to be mentioned in discussions of contending teams.

 

[Ftballfan]

Okay, I'm clearly wrong. Why don't we take a straw pole of this message board and see who most people agree with. Manning has played half as long as both Tarkenton and Unitas and has already put up comparable numbers. He's 10 tds behind Unites and has thrown 110 less interceptions. He's also won as many titles as Unitas. He'll also pass Unitas in career yards by the end of this season. Tarkenton QB rating was around 80. Although he is a much better scrambler than Manning, I still feel Manning is a better QB.

The reason I didn't understand your logic was that you had 5 QBs ahead of Manning, one of which was Brady, and most fans probably feel Manning is a better QB (I am not one of them). I know your reasoning can't be championships because Unitas had 1 and Tarkenton and 0. Sure, he went to 4 superbowls, but Manning would probably have gone to at least 3 if it wasn't for that guy named Brady.

You are entitled to your opinion. I was just trying to understand your logic of why you had 5 QBs clearly ahead of Manning. I feel that putting Manning in the same class as Favre is an insult to Manning. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't make me clearly wrong.

The problem with your point is that you are making comparison between quarterback ratings, when there are many factors (even beyond just talent level) that determine quarterback rating. First you knocked Unitas for having a low rating. This is true, but it is by todays standards. When Unitas played the passing game was not opened up as it is now. Cornerbacks were allowed to abuse the receivers downfield, and football was this way until 1978, when the pass defense rules were liberalized. They were further opened up in 1994, and then again in 2004. Todays quarterbacks benefit from a passing game that is geared towards efficiency, and is allowable because of the promotion of downfield passing by the league. You also knocked Elway for having a rating lower than 80. This was in part due to the lack of talent around him, but also was because of the conservative nature of his first head coach, Dan Reeves. The year after Reeves left his rating shot up some 25 points. It wasn't coincidence, and it wasn't because Elway just suddenly got better. His rating with and without Reeves is dramatically different. This was because the Broncos moved to a "West Coast/Bill Walsh type offense" based on using the backs more, intermediate passes, and was based on a greater total efficiency than the Reeves offense: not using the backs as outlets, have Elway run around and throw deep. Since the league has copied the Bill Walsh offense, quarterback ratings and completion percentages have gone up dramatically. Teams throw less deep passes, and more intermediate passes to the backs and stress higher efficiency. So the rating comparison is an invalid comparison. If you want to compare quarterbacks, and it is something I never see done, compare the skillsets. Why is it that when comparing quarterbacks no one compares skillsets? I get bothered by this. If you're comparing Manning to Brady, compare who gets to his 3rd or 4th read better. Who handles a pass rush better. Who throws deep better. Who moves better. Who has a better arm. Who throws more accurately. Who leads his recivers better. Etc, etc, etc. Stop simplifying the argument by saying Player A has more championships than Player B, A must be better than B. B has better stats then A, B must be better than A. Make the arguments as analytical as possible.

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

The problem with your point is Make the arguments as analytical as possible.

Rookie, You have got to break up your posts with paragraphs.

Its easier for all us to try to read. Thanks.

 

[FSUPatsFan]

The problem with your point is that you are making comparison between quarterback ratings, when there are many factors (even beyond just talent level) that determine quarterback rating. First you knocked Unitas for having a low rating. This is true, but it is by todays standards. When Unitas played the passing game was not opened up as it is now. Cornerbacks were allowed to abuse the receivers downfield, and football was this way until 1978, when the pass defense rules were liberalized. They were further opened up in 1994, and then again in 2004. Todays quarterbacks benefit from a passing game that is geared towards efficiency, and is allowable because of the promotion of downfield passing by the league. You also knocked Elway for having a rating lower than 80. This was in part due to the lack of talent around him, but also was because of the conservative nature of his first head coach, Dan Reeves. The year after Reeves left his rating shot up some 25 points. It wasn't coincidence, and it wasn't because Elway just suddenly got better. His rating with and without Reeves is dramatically different. This was because the Broncos moved to a "West Coast/Bill Walsh type offense" based on using the backs more, intermediate passes, and was based on a greater total efficiency than the Reeves offense: not using the backs as outlets, have Elway run around and throw deep. Since the league has copied the Bill Walsh offense, quarterback ratings and completion percentages have gone up dramatically. Teams throw less deep passes, and more intermediate passes to the backs and stress higher efficiency. So the rating comparison is an invalid comparison. If you want to compare quarterbacks, and it is something I never see done, compare the skillsets. Why is it that when comparing quarterbacks no one compares skillsets? I get bothered by this. If you're comparing Manning to Brady, compare who gets to his 3rd or 4th read better. Who handles a pass rush better. Who throws deep better. Who moves better. Who has a better arm. Who throws more accurately. Who leads his recivers better. Etc, etc, etc. Stop simplifying the argument by saying Player A has more championships than Player B, A must be better than B. B has better stats then A, B must be better than A. Make the arguments as analytical as possible.

Excellent point! The only problem with that is that it is awful hard to compare quarterbacks on that basis unless you have seen them play. No matter what two quarterbacks you compare, its really comparing apples to oranges. Some had good recievers, some didn't. Some had no protection, some had all day to throw. The variables are infinite. Basically, stats is the only evidence one has to back their arguments, unless they have watched and studies quarterback through time.

Its awful hard to see how quarterbacks make their reads unless you have the overhead view of the plays. Most people don't have access to these tapes. I would be interested to see who BB, or someone else who has studied film of quarterbacks endlessly, thinks the best qb of all time is.

 

[Deus Irae]

Okay, I'm clearly wrong. Why don't we take a straw pole of this message board and see who most people agree with. Manning has played half as long as both Tarkenton and Unitas and has already put up comparable numbers. He's 10 tds behind Unites and has thrown 110 less interceptions. He's also won as many titles as Unitas. He'll also pass Unitas in career yards by the end of this season. Tarkenton QB rating was around 80. Although he is a much better scrambler than Manning, I still feel Manning is a better QB.

The reason I didn't understand your logic was that you had 5 QBs ahead of Manning, one of which was Brady, and most fans probably feel Manning is a better QB (I am not one of them). I know your reasoning can't be championships because Unitas had 1 and Tarkenton and 0. Sure, he went to 4 superbowls, but Manning would probably have gone to at least 3 if it wasn't for that guy named Brady.

You are entitled to your opinion. I was just trying to understand your logic of why you had 5 QBs clearly ahead of Manning. I feel that putting Manning in the same class as Favre is an insult to Manning. Just because I have a different opinion, doesn't make me clearly wrong.

Just to start with some sample "best ever lists":

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/35424/top_five_nfl_quarterbacks_of_alltime.html

http://www.wisegeek.com/who-is-the-all-time-best-quarterback-in-the-nfl.htm

http://media.www.newsrecord.org/media/storage/paper693/news/2003/10/01/Sports/Column.Best.Quarterback.A.Cleveland.Brown-695886-page2.shtml

http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?title=The_100_Greatest_Quarterbacks_of_the_Modern_Era

http://cowboys.beloblog.com/archives/2007/09/best_quarterback_in_pro_football.html


The relevant portion of your quote:

Manning is far and away better than both Tarkenton and Unitas. Elway's career passer rating is under 80.

I find it amusing that you get your panties in a twist over being called "clearly wrong", but you had no problem making the comment that Manning was "far and away better than both Tarkenton and Unitas."

You seriously expected me to take your post as anything but clearly wrong after you wrote that? Unitas, just for an example, was MVP 4 times, 2 of the seasons being 10 years apart ('57, '67). He was a 10 time Pro Bowler and won 4 league championships. Your opinion that Manning is better is yours to hold, but to claim that he was "far and away better" is clearly wrong, and deserving of being called out.

Do a simple exercise. Take the following quarterbacks:

Manning
Elway
Brady
Favre
Young
Montana
Marino

Now, make a case for each one of them being the best in the list. It may surprise you to find out that you can, in fact, do just that. Manning is not even "far and away better than" at least 6 other modern quarterbacks, nevermind the quarterbacks from earlier eras.

 

[jays52]

I have found that people who cite stats in football debates generally have no idea what they are talking about. I for one love the nuances in Brady's game. As senior football player in college who has played linebacker since age 8, I by nature despise quarterbacks. I respect the hell out of Tom Brady and admire him as a ball player. His style of play can only be described as athletic eloquence. I have never seen a player so composed, so surgical, so precice in his reads. He takes licks most guys will never get up from and takes the next snap. He moves in the pocket like Marino, looks off Db's like Montana, has the fire of Elway, the charisma of Namath and the gut of Starr. Watch Manning when he gets heat...he gets happy feet. As a defensive player, happy feet is the best indication of a quarterback about to quit. Manning pouts when he is down, Brady gets pissed and does something about it. This is measure of a competitor. Manning wants to be a great player, Brady wants to win. The difference between the two as competitors is amazing. Defensive players are trained to smell blood. Any percieved weakness in offensive leaders, and we go for the jugular. There's a reason we love to deliver big hits in critical downs. It is clear that defenders can get into Manning's head. We love to frustrate an offense, because it is often the catalyst for their quitting. Manning is easily flustered if the game doesn't go his way. Brady will keep pushing on, remaining mentally tough, staying true to the gameplan, standing and delivering into the blitz generally having massive huevos. I have never faced a player with the resolve that Brady has. He really doesn't give a **** how hard you hit him, how many times you hit him, or how many looks you give him. He just stays cool, makes his adjustments and plays to your frustrations. In my mind, there never has, nor will there ever be another player like him in football. It is simply amazing to watch him work, and he is the archeotype for the modern-era qb.