Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maroney

[DaBruinz]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

LOL. You're really stretching. Yours and DaBruinz logic:

A. BB is never effusive in his praise of his players [unless maybe they're named Seau or Bruschi, but that's beside the point]

Listen. If you are going to attempt to attribute something to me, the least you could do is quote me instead of being stupid about it. I said that BB is never effusive DURING THE SEASON. No one has provided a SINGLE quote of BB doing that. It's called a qualifier. You clearly don't understand what it means.

B. BB's "praise" of Maroney wasn't effusive.

It wasn't effusive. However, it was praise. Saying he's doing a fine job is praise. It's tempered, but its still praise.

A+B=C

C. BB thinks Maroney is a fine running back, is getting the job done, and anyone who says negative things about Maroney is simply incapable of knowing what BB thinks.

The part in bold is your made up BS. Plain and simple.

And BB saying that the line could do a better job opening holes is like him saying Tom Brady could do a better job making his reads.

As for your last comparison, I think you need to go back and listen to what BB said because there is a qualifier that he put on it. BB said, ".....What I’d like to see is for us to open bigger holes to create some space for these guys and allow them to run. … He can do a better job, but we can block better,"

First, BB didn't use COULD. He said we CAN block better. That means he knows that the O-line isn't getting the job done all the time when Maroney is out there.

The detractors of Maroney, like yourself, go out of your way to make things up. You hang your arguments on idiot pundits like Felger who says something like "Maroney's doesn't like contact" after a run in the 49ers game last year when Maroney was trying to play with a broken shoulder. The detractors purposely ignore the inconsistent play of the O-line when it comes to run blocking. You ignore the type of runner Maroney was coming out of college and pretend that he was in the same mold as Dillon, which he wasn't. And, when facts are thrown at you, you just friggin ignore them or pretend like everyone else is mis-interpretting them. its a joke. Particularly when you make stuff up like you have.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

LOL. You're really stretching. Yours and DaBruinz logic:

A. BB is never effusive in his praise of his players [unless maybe they're named Seau or Bruschi, but that's beside the point]

B. BB's "praise" of Maroney wasn't effusive.

A+B=C

C. BB thinks Maroney is a fine running back, is getting the job done, and anyone who says negative things about Maroney is simply incapable of knowing what BB thinks.

And BB saying that the line could do a better job opening holes is like him saying Tom Brady could do a better job making his reads.

A= Belichick's praise rarely, if ever, extends beyond "yeah, this guy is fine, everyone needs to improve, everyone's doing their jobs".

B= I can't remember Belichick ever once saying "yeah, sure this guy could improve, but so could everyone. He's actually doing very well, and [OTHER GUYS] need to do their job better to help him out." That's what he said re: Maroney

C= Clearly, Belichick had a reason for saying that. I dunno what it is, and I haven't claimed to know what it is, but this is far from standard for Belichick.

 

[apple strudel]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Apples, I also said in that same post that for first round RBs, often the expectation (fair or not) is for them to be the next Emmitt Smith or Barry Sanders.

That's why people are disappointed, again whether fair or not.

I wasn't arguing with you, just using that part of your post as a stand-in for an argument that's been repeated frequently about Maroney.

Here are some more useful measures/discussions of Maroney and running back performance. There's a lot I'd like to do with the data but I don't have time (yardage distribution and distribution relative to other specific backs), so all I can do is link and run. But people should take all this into account when evaluating whether 2-3 yards behind the pile is useful or not. Short answer: it's hugely valuable if you want to win. Also, note that Maroney is currently 12th in DYAR. Taylor, with fewer carries, rates only slightly above Maroney (63 to 61). It's not like Taylor is blowing Maroney out of the water like a lot of people seem to believe. Taylor's DVOA is also better, but not by a huge amount (23.9% to 17.6%).

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | RUNNING BACKS 2009
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Laurence Maroney
Advanced NFL Stats: Comparing Running Performance
Advanced NFL Stats: Are NFL Coaches Too Timid?
Smart Football: More on evaluating the run game

 

[weswelker#83]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

MailBag By Christopher Price

"Hi Chris,
Everyone is down on Maroney, and so am I. But he also has great potential when he gets into the open field — better than [Sammy] Morris, [BenJarvus] Green-Ellis and [Kevin] Faulk. Have there been discussions on trying to use Maroney in a Reggie Bush-type way — as in, getting the ball is his hands in the open field after the line of scrimmage?"
What do you think?

Eric



A: Maroney’s strength is when he’s in the open field — he’s not a traditional between-the-tackles running back — and so you would think that the Patriots are doing all they can do to get Maroney operating in space. In that situation, he’s a truly dangerous offensive presence. However, since his rookie year, Maroney has been ineffective in the passing game — he has just 10 catches since 2006. He talked a little bit about his desire to contribute more in the passing game at the start of the season, but it really hasn’t worked out, at least to this point.
If they do more to get him involved in the passing game and Maroney’s receiving skills improve, then I could see an expanded role for him in the passing game. But as far as him being a Reggie Bush-type, that role is more for Faulk, still one of the best pass-catching backs in the league.
MailBag By Christopher Price

 

[JMarr]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

1. Listen. If you are going to attempt to attribute something to me, the least you could do is quote me instead of being stupid about it. I said that BB is never effusive DURING THE SEASON. No one has provided a SINGLE quote of BB doing that. It's called a qualifier. You clearly don't understand what it means.



2. It wasn't effusive. However, it was praise. Saying he's doing a fine job is praise. It's tempered, but its still praise.



3. The part in bold is your made up BS. Plain and simple.



4. The detractors of Maroney, like yourself, go out of your way to make things up. You hang your arguments on idiot pundits like Felger who says something like "Maroney's doesn't like contact" after a run in the 49ers game last year when Maroney was trying to play with a broken shoulder. The detractors purposely ignore the inconsistent play of the O-line when it comes to run blocking. You ignore the type of runner Maroney was coming out of college and pretend that he was in the same mold as Dillon, which he wasn't. And, when facts are thrown at you, you just friggin ignore them or pretend like everyone else is mis-interpretting them. its a joke. Particularly when you make stuff up like you have.

1. I don't see how your qualifier makes a whole lot of difference. But if you have any examples of when BB lavished excessive praise on a any player simply because the season was over, let me know. I can think of players whom he's lavished praise on after their careers were over. Praising the team after the season ended is a different matter.


2. The whole premise of the thread is that his comments were positive by BB standards, therefore he somehow went out of his way to praise Maroney. Totally disagree.


3. Just pointing out the absurdity of using sarcastic logical equations as a way of putting words in people's mouths. (My comment was directed at BradyFTW. My bad for throwing your name in there).


4. I'm not a Maroney "detractor," and too often people are polarized as being either in one camp or the other. I think we all can agree that he's talented, but some, for whatever reason, think he isn't living up to his physical talents. And I think we can mark injuries off the list of reasons right now.
I think Maroney could still develop into a very good running back, but right now something's gotten inside his head and I hope for his sake he gets it out, whether it's through coaching, being put in the right situations, or a total change of scenery.

 

[JMarr]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

I can't remember Belichick ever once saying "yeah, sure this guy could improve, but so could everyone.
.

Really? That pretty much sums up one of his most frequently used lines of response. And summing up what BB said as "If anything, this one is on the o-line" is false. More like "Maroney's had some struggles and there are things he can improve on, but the line opening up bigger holes for him definitely couldn't hurt his ability to gain more yards." Obviously. A typical non-answer.

The idea that this interview somehow proves that 99% of those who have criticized Maroney don't know anything about football is ludicrous.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Really? That pretty much sums up one of his most frequently used lines of response. And summing up what BB said as "If anything, this one is on the o-line" is false. More like "Maroney's had some struggles and there are things he can improve on, but the line opening up bigger holes for him definitely couldn't hurt his ability to gain more yards." Obviously. A typical non-answer.

The idea that this interview somehow proves that 99% of those who have criticized Maroney don't know anything about football is ludicrous.

Again:

the majority of Laurence's plays come when there's more people on the defense that are defending the run.... not that that makes any difference to him, he's got to run where the holes are anyway, but we've got to block it better and we've got to create more space for him than what we've been able to do.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...se-rb-laurence-maroney-page2.html#post1569762

I'm sorry, but that's not a "typical non-answer". Furthermore, the fact that the team started using Connolly as a fullback should have clued in all those who try to insist that the problem is all about Maroney that.....

It's not all about Maroney, and the Patriots know it.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Really? That pretty much sums up one of his most frequently used lines of response. And summing up what BB said as "If anything, this one is on the o-line" is false. More like "Maroney's had some struggles and there are things he can improve on, but the line opening up bigger holes for him definitely couldn't hurt his ability to gain more yards." Obviously. A typical non-answer.

The idea that this interview somehow proves that 99% of those who have criticized Maroney don't know anything about football is ludicrous.

You left out the second half of the quote. That's about as valid as taking out everything except "the" and claiming that I'm wrong because Belichick has said "the" before.

 

[jbb9s]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Sir - YPC is really not the point. Its called standard deviation. There is a difference between Fred Taylor who has a 4.5 and a low SD and Maroney who goes -2,-1,15,0,0,0,2,5,-1, 10 for the same avg.

If its 3rd and 4, you would say you want Maroney to rush it since on average he would make it. Actually, you are wrong.

By the way, since you brought up YPC and think its some shining star, you should not that Maroney in his "breakout game of the last 2 years" against Tennessee had a 7.7 while Law Firm was 9+ and Johnsons and Ringer were both at 6.7+. It is really a reflection of the conditions and the gameplans of both teams.

Finally, I' going to bump this when Maroney is sitting on the bench for 6 series at a time once Taylor and/or Morris come back.

That's about as glowing as BB gets. You're again grasping at straws with cherry picking your definition of "glowing". So, since you seem to think that he's offered up much more glowing plays of other running backs on the team since he's been coach (or just other players in general) to the point where he's gushing at them, please feel free to post the quotes with links.



Maroney's YPC average for this year: 4.3
Maroney's YPC average for 2007: 4.5
Maroney's YPC average for 2006: 4.3

Laurence Maroney

You really destroyed your own argument on that one. But anyway, the Patriots have (had) two running backs on the roster that were "pound it between the tackles" backs in Fred Taylor and Sammy Morris. However, both of them are now hurt. But, for comparison's sake, let's post their YPC averages for this year as well and see where Maroney grades out among the other two...

Fred Taylor: 4.5
Fred Taylor

Sammy Morris: 3.6
Sammy Morris

According to these stats, the "pound it between the tackles machine who never gets stopped for negative yardage" Fred Taylor (who is also my boy) is only .2 YPC ahead of Maroney and Sammy Morris is under 4.0 YPC.

Here's another fun fact - Maroney has only had a YPC average under 4.0 once in his entire career - that being last season when he shattered his shoulder (yet still tried to play for a game) and had to go on IR for the rest of the year.



Wow. You really think you have a home run hit with this so called "point", don't you? The question of whether or not we should give starter money to Maroney is ridiculous at this point given the fact that the Patriots have clearly shown that they wish to be a running back by committee type of team. How many times, since BB has been head coach of this team, have they given starter, or big money, to a running back? They sure as hell didn't do it when it was a one man wrecking crew, and they sure as hell aren't going to do it now when they can get two more capable bodies in there for the price of "starter" money. So, in short, if Maroney is expecting starter money, then he is out of his mind. He won't get it, and it won't be because of his production.



Hmm. I believe I just did. However, the first point wasn't that hard considering that you destroyed it on your own before I even got to it...

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Sir - YPC is really not the point. Its called standard deviation. There is a difference between Fred Taylor who has a 4.5 and a low SD and Maroney who goes -2,-1,15,0,0,0,2,5,-1, 10 for the same avg.

If its 3rd and 4, you would say you want Maroney to rush it since on average he would make it. Actually, you are wrong.

By the way, since you brought up YPC and think its some shining star, you should not that Maroney in his "breakout game of the last 2 years" against Tennessee had a 7.7 while Law Firm was 9+ and Johnsons and Ringer were both at 6.7+. It is really a reflection of the conditions and the gameplans of both teams.

Finally, I' going to bump this when Maroney is sitting on the bench for 6 series at a time once Taylor and/or Morris come back.

Go look up success rate sometime. This point has already been concretely disproven by people with a pretty complex grasp of statistics that extends far beyond standard deviation. STDEV is about as basic as statistics gets.

 

[apple strudel]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Sir - YPC is really not the point. Its called standard deviation. There is a difference between Fred Taylor who has a 4.5 and a low SD and Maroney who goes -2,-1,15,0,0,0,2,5,-1, 10 for the same avg.

We all know how average works, and how it is swayed by extremes at either end. But what you suggest here, that Maroney has a lot of very low yard carries with very few high yardage carries, is completely unsupported. We have already(I believe) established that Maroney has something like fewer than 10% of his carries no no gain or negative gain. What you need to provide to support your argument is something like this chart for Adrian Peterson. I'd like to see it (not being sarcastic - I've already stated that it would be useful). What's interesting about this is that it shows that Peterson is around average for all his carries except carries over 30 yards and some other longer runs (by the way I read it).

Advanced NFL Stats: Comparing Running Performance

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

I already posted this early in the thread, but it's apparently relevant to bring it up again, for jbbs' benefit:
====
2009 PERCENTAGE OF CARRIES FOR A GAIN, BY RB:
Taylor: 95.5%
Maroney: 88.5%
Morris: 76.6%
BJGE: 73.3%

Small sample size, so I dunno if it's even particularly relevant, but someone else brought it up, so might as well give the actual numbers I guess. If you guys want, I'll keep a running update of this throughout the season, simply in hopes that it will finally shut down this stupid misconception.

 

[jbb9s]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Go look up success rate sometime. This point has already been concretely disproven by people with a pretty complex grasp of statistics that extends far beyond standard deviation (which I, for one, learned about in middle school, so that's not exactly groundbreaking stuff).

was that before or after your derived Black-Scholes in 8th grade?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

I already posted this early in the thread, but it's apparently relevant to bring it up again, for jbbs' benefit:
====
2009 PERCENTAGE OF CARRIES FOR A GAIN, BY RB:
Taylor: 95.5%
Maroney: 88.5%
Morris: 76.6%
BJGE: 73.3%

Small sample size, so I dunno if it's even particularly relevant, but someone else brought it up, so might as well give the actual numbers I guess. If you guys want, I'll keep a running update of this throughout the season, simply in hopes that it will finally shut down this stupid misconception.

It's not going to shut it down. This will be posted in this thread just like it has in the numerous other "Maroney is a bust" threads and it will be conveniently ignored. A week from now, when yet another Maroney thread inevitably appears, you or I or someone else will be using it again.

 

[SpiderFox53]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

MailBag By Christopher Price

"Hi Chris,
Everyone is down on Maroney, and so am I. But he also has great potential when he gets into the open field — better than [Sammy] Morris, [BenJarvus] Green-Ellis and [Kevin] Faulk. Have there been discussions on trying to use Maroney in a Reggie Bush-type way — as in, getting the ball is his hands in the open field after the line of scrimmage?"
What do you think?

Eric



A: Maroney’s strength is when he’s in the open field — he’s not a traditional between-the-tackles running back — and so you would think that the Patriots are doing all they can do to get Maroney operating in space. In that situation, he’s a truly dangerous offensive presence. However, since his rookie year, Maroney has been ineffective in the passing game — he has just 10 catches since 2006. He talked a little bit about his desire to contribute more in the passing game at the start of the season, but it really hasn’t worked out, at least to this point.
If they do more to get him involved in the passing game and Maroney’s receiving skills improve, then I could see an expanded role for him in the passing game. But as far as him being a Reggie Bush-type, that role is more for Faulk, still one of the best pass-catching backs in the league.
MailBag By Christopher Price

I take issue with the part in bold. Maroney not being used in the passing game is not the same as him being ineffective. For the most part, from what I remember, LM has been effective when they throw him the ball (I have no stats to back up this impression so if it's wrong, please tell me)

 

[jbb9s]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

It's not going to shut it down. This will be posted in this thread just like it has in the numerous other "Maroney is a bust" threads and it will be conveniently ignored. A week from now, when yet another Maroney thread inevitably appears, you or I or someone else will be using it again.

Actually, I predict you will only have to use it again for 12 weeks. Then we can move on in life. But at least we'll know which side of the argument Belichick was on.

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Actually, I predict you will only have to use it again for 12 weeks. Then we can move on in life. But at least we'll know which side of the argument Belichick was on.

We know now. That was the whole point of this thread. The offensive line has to run block better. So far they have sucked at doing it and anybody that has been watching the games knows this. Bill Belichick knows this. He said it. I'm not sure what you guys are having trouble understanding here, because I really don't think that BB could have made it any more cut and dry if had tried.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Sir - YPC is really not the point. Its called standard deviation. There is a difference between Fred Taylor who has a 4.5 and a low SD and Maroney who goes -2,-1,15,0,0,0,2,5,-1, 10 for the same avg.

If its 3rd and 4, you would say you want Maroney to rush it since on average he would make it. Actually, you are wrong.

Just because you say that's how Maroney's runs break down, doesn't make it so. If you actually looked at the FACTS you would see you are 100% wrong. But I guess you'll just ignore the facts like all the other MBM's.

Finally, I' going to bump this when Maroney is sitting on the bench for 6 series at a time once Taylor and/or Morris come back.

Morris come back? He's been here all year if I'm not mistaken.

The only game that Taylor had significantly more carries than Maroney so far has been the game that Maroney got hurt in (ATL). So you make some ridiculous future claim that you will never have to back up and probably just forget about.

 

[jbb9s]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

Morris come back? He's been here all year if I'm not mistaken.

The only game that Taylor had significantly more carries than Maroney so far has been the game that Maroney got hurt in (ATL). So you make some ridiculous future claim that you will never have to back up and probably just forget about.

(A) Maroney was not injured against ATL. he was benched actually

(B) Morris is hurt. What are you talking about?

 

[Kontradiction]

Re: Bill Belichick joins The Big Show and offers a strong defense of RB Laurence Maro

(A) Maroney was not injured against ATL. he was benched actually

So when did you start working for the team?