Bigger Fail: Carroll's Last Pass or Buttfumble?

[doesntmatter1]

I had to come back to this thread again after hearing all day how bad this play was. First, the seahawks didn't give this game away, Butler singlehandedly TOOK it. Despite the results, how is this play worst then how they tied the game up at half time. With six seconds left they score a td, BUT if that ball had been juggled and knocked loose by Ryan they would have ended that drive scoreless.

Throughout the game Wilson threw the ball up into contested areas and lived with the results. What Chris Matthews did is what we have miserably attempted to do w/ Slater in the playoffs in the past. This aggressive and bold play calling is what made them successful throughout the game and everyone just magically expects them and bashes them for not changing their M.O. Sometimes you get burned, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Froob]

Butt fumble by far. It was a bad call to pass it, should have given beast mode one more shot then tried the pass on 3rd down. In all fairness it wasn't very likely to be picked. Terrific play by Browner to not let them set the pick.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Not even close.

 

[DaBruinz]

Both are epic fails, but which is bigger?

I have to disagree that the call to pass it on 2nd down was an "Epic Fail" when you take the following into consideration (which I didn't last night, but have today since the information came to light):

- Marshawn Lynch was 1 for 5 on the season on attempts to score from the 1 yard line
- The Seahawks were 3-0 in terms of successfully completing that play for a TD on the season.
- The Patriots had just sent out their Jumbo/Goal line package. (3 WR set vs. Jumbo/Goal line would seem to favor the pass)
- The Seahawks had only 1 Time Out left so any sort of incomplete pass would stop the clock, which would be in their favor since they wanted 4 downs to score and running the ball on 2nd would mean having to burn their last time out and running precious seconds off the clock..

 

[DaBruinz]

After thinking about it. you're right.
By calling a pass, Carroll figured, with one timeout, he could call two more running plays after an incompletion.
The "fail" was on Wilson. He should have recognized the situation after Browner took out Kearse who was supposed to set the pick on Butler. At that point the play was blown. He should have thrown the ball away.

If you watch the replays, Butler wasn't going to get picked at all because he'd already broken on where the ball was going before Wilson even turned to throw it. Why? Because Butler recognized the play from practice and said as much.. He said that, in practice, he failed to stop the TD and wasn't going to let that happen again..

There is no blame. There is just a damn good play by a rookie..Saying that there is blame takes away from Butler's play..

 

[ausbacker]

In my mind, it's clearly the Buttfumble. The Pick was a brilliantly executed play by Browner and Butler. The Buttfumble demonstrates all that is great about the Jets.

 

[PATS16N0]

I think people are buying into the media narrative (once again… sigh…) that Seattle's goal line play was such an awful decision warranting the scrutiny it's received. It's honestly just another way for them, haters that they are, to discredit the Patriots victory. It's a pretty high percentage play and teams make it successfully all the time. Butler made a great play to wash away Seattle's lucky one.

If it's completed for a TD, the same asshats are talking about Pete's brilliance with the play call.

 

[Hoodie]

The Buttfumble was pure comedy.

 

[stcjones]

Brilliant post bud.....ALL I have heard ALL day is how Seattle had the game won....all they had to do is give the ball to "Beast Mode" (and if I have to hear this ahole's stupid nickname again I might puke) and he would have gotten the TD.....just like that....piece o cake. They are all so red ***ed today because the DESPISED Patriots got "lucky" and were gifted a win due to Pete Carroll's poor coaching and game management.

No talk today about how the Pats outplayed Seattle significantly 3 out of the 4 quarters....that BB OUTCOACHED Petey....that had Brady not thrown TWO Picks....this game would NOT have been that close. Brady played exceptionally well.....where was the coverage/talk about how great the OL played.....and Edelman.....andGronk......AND how the play by Seattle was NOT a bad idea. Carroll noted pats had brought in the big guys to stuff the box.....so he switched things out for a quick slant....which was executed quite well.......only problem is.....Malcolm "Freaking" Butler made one of the greatest defensive plays of all time.....and where was all the accolades for all of the above Patriots brilliance? Rarely mentioned......Shameful piece of crap mediots

honestly, I am already sick of this topic. It's overshadowing a great Super Bowl.

Belichick made a brilliant decision when he moved Browner onto Mathews and put Butler on Kearse.

he made another brilliant move when he abstained from taking a timeout, limiting Seattle's play selection and not allowing subs.

Lynch was doing well, but the Patriots had success the whole game stopping him on obvious running downs. Lynch was 1/3 on 3rd down. He was not very good on the goal line this season either. ESPN likes to pretend he is some otherworldly 'beast', but he has his negatives too. Obvious running situations are it.

The Seahawks did not have the goal line unit in. They were too small to run. If they take a timeout, they lose a potential play.

Carrol made the right call. Wilson threw the ball too high. Lockett didn't adjust correctly. Malcom Butler did. So, just like every game, the win was decided by the good plays. Not bad ones.

Seriously, Belichicks decision to let the clock run down was one of the greatest coaching decisions in football history. He mind!@#$ed Carrol. The Seahawks had to go to the line and run the the personnel New England wanted on the field, not them. Give the Patriots all the credit.

This is another story to drown out Brady and the Patriots records and accomplishments. People don't want to talk about those, so they beat stupid garbage like a drum.

 

[chasa]

that call by pete is a call that could lose him the entire locker room.

its one thing to go for it on 4th and 2, when you have a guy like brady. but to not run it on fourth and goal, inches to go to win the superbowl, and you don't give it to lynch 4 times.

just insane. franchise crushing call by carrol.

it will go down as the worst play call in history.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Seattle's mistake was not getting their goal line offense in there fast enough.

When they saw that they did not have enough time and were facing our goal line unit with 8 bigs and just 3 DBs, they felt (and probably wisely) that running was not a good option out of their 3 WR set.

Choice 1 was to call a timeout and put in their goal line O. But then they might not have had time to run twice.

Choice 2 was to call a for a quick, safe pass. All 3 WRs would be single covered, most likely. If incomplete you have saved your TO, can get your bigs in, and can run twice for sure. If complete, you win.

put that way, I don't see why choice 2 is all that bad.

I understand their logic completely, once they were unable to match personnel.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

There is no guarantee that a running play would have succeeded. On the other hand, if the pass play would have succeeded, Seattle would be lauding their coach's brilliance.

SO Malcolm Butler, thank you so very much!!!

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

'Beast Mode's' production in this game had good, not spectacular, production: 24 rushes for 102. Again I'm not diminishing that contribution because it is solid production, but it isn't 'beast mode'.

some breakdown on Lynch's per carry stats:
- three carries on 3rd and 1 to 2 yard stats: 1 TD and 2 'no gains'
- 3rd quarter stats: 47 yards on 8 carries (a HUGE 5.9 YPC) (even in his best quarter he was 1 of 2 on short yardage plays)
- All other quarters stats: 55 yards on 16 carries (3.4 YPC)
- 4th quarter stats: 4 carries, 12 yards, 3 YPC

Other interesting considerations:
- Seattle from the one yard line on 2nd down happened in the 3rd quarter. Result: Wilson pass for a TD (was that the worst call ever too?)
- Lynch was significantly more productive in down/distance situations that were not obvious run plays
- IMHO, Seattle's most productive drives were much pass dependent than Lynch dependent.

Considering Lynch wasn't tearing up the field in the fourth or this dominating presence on shorter yardage plays, considering the Seahawks had used the goal line pass successfully against what I presume was the Patriots' goal line package (in the 3rd quarter), considering the Patriots were in a jumbo goal line defense on the critical 4th quarter play even though Seattle had 3 WRs in the game, considering the Seahawks had a timeout and 25 seconds, considering post game interviews revealed every Patriot was heavily believing a Lynch run, it's hard to conclude this is the worst play call ever.
IMHO you can clearly see some logic behind passing the ball. I don't know if that makes it ok (I think I would have gone with 3 Lynch runs), however and again, there is fair logic to say a pass was a logical conlcusion.
This is on Wilson for throwing to the spot he threw to and Butler making a once in a lifetime sensational play.

The 'how in the world not Lynch! It's the worst ever!!' has some drama queen, sour grapes, typical media stupidity (us Patriot fans are well versed with it) mixed in that statement, versus it being founded on flawless overwhelming logic.

 

[meatface]

Can't it be both?

 

[Fencer]

Seattle's biggest mistake on the last drive was burning a TO for no reason other than poor clock management.

Beyond that, calling a pass was probably wrong. A run had lower chance of a TO. If they call a run and it fails, then on 3rd down they have a choice of a run (which would be the last play of the game if it failed) or a pass (which would allow them a fourth down if it failed).

I want to say that they also should have tried a safer pass play, but perhaps Wilson is too short for those crossing routes that work in the end zone surprisingly often, so maybe he's always defended with outside CB techniques that make fades unlikely to succeed. I just don't know enough about the Seahawks to have an opinion on that.

 

[DaBronxPats14]

I think someone asked Pete Carroll if he wanted Back2Back Championships.
He said No, I'll just PASS!

 

[RecoveringCowboy]

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I think you have to take the good with the bad. For those who think they got too cute or too clever or too aggressive, it's the same type of mentality that led them to go for 7 at the end of the half while everyone else would have went for 3. It's the same aggressiveness that decided on that fake FG against GB, and the deep passes in OT to beat the Packers despite Wilson struggling all day.

It's similar to the aggressiveness in letting your back-up QB throw the ball down the field with under a minute left against the Rams in the Super Bowl while everyone including John Madden is telling them they should sit on the ball and take their chances in overtime.

The play call is only one part of the process. Players make plays. Bruce Arians didn't become a worse offensive mind when Ryan Lindley took over. And for all the talk of the unstoppable Beast mode, he was 1 for 5 this season in converting from the 1-yard line, and 5 of 12 the past 3 seasons, with 4 of those runs losing yards. So let's not assume it's automatic because it's not.

Ultimately, if Butler is a split-second slower or Wilson locates the ball lower, we may be talking about the genius of Carroll and how Belichick is a moron for letting the clock run when he could have been conserving clock for his offense. The play call itself didn't lose the Seahawks the game. Their offense not showing up for a quarter played a bigger part. So did settling for a FG in the red zone meant they needed the TD instead of settling for a FG to win. Giving up 2 4th-quarter TDs and losing a 10-point lead also mattered.

The play call didn't lose them the Super Bowl. The players did.

 

[Betterthanmost]

convertedpatsfan, I was about to post similar sentiments. I am shocked that there is a poll with just those two choices. They are not comparable. It is annoying that now everyone knows all about coaching a football team. It is insulting to all involved. The WR was wide open. Butler wanted it more. They only had one run left with the time left and the timeout. The Seahawks play loose and have fun out there. They go for broke. That is what took them to the Super bowl.