Ben Watson

[fgssand]

History begs to differ. When tight ends go over 1,000 yards they are playing on teams that have poor wide receivers.

No debate, I was just saying it could work out that way......one ball, multiple quality targets, an impressive running game and Tom Brady.

What an offense.....

 

[fgssand]

Assuming his foot heels in timely fashion and without complications (profootballweekly reports that this is the case), IMO David Thomas is the best TE on the Patriots. He has terrific hands, great instincts, is a developing blocker and will become a 3rd down machine. In this offense he can be a Jason Witten. Watson is a great talent, but not as reliable, and Brady gravitates toward reliability over talent when deciding where to go with the ball. Having the two of them on the field simultaneously will be ideal. IMO K. Brady will be the odd man out barring injury. As far as numbers go, my early take on production is

Moss 70 catches 1100 yards 10 TDs
Stallworth 50 catches 700 yards 5 TDs
Thomas 35 catches 450 yards 4 TDs
Watson 30 catches 400 yards 4 TDs
Welker 55 catches 600 yards 2 TDs
Faulk 25 catches 200 yards 1 TD
Maroney 40 catches 300 yards 3 TDs
Caldwell/Gaffney/Washington 45 catches/500 yards/3 TDs

total: 350 completions/4250 yards/32 TDs

Maroney rushing: 300 carries/1400 yards/12 TDs

Troy Brown??

 

[spacecrime]

History begs to differ. When tight ends go over 1,000 yards they are playing on teams that have poor wide receivers.

Can you give me some of this history? Just curious as it seems counter-intuitive to me.

 

[Remix 6]

Remix, explain to me how Watson is going to repeat his production from last season? He was the #1 target last year because we had NO ONE on offense.

With Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Faulk...Watson will be a secondary option on every single passing play.

Other tight ends who get high receiving stats have horrible to average wide receivers. Check it out!!

because he was double covered everytime..#1 target doesnt always mean best success..Brady throws to who is open..1on1 verse an LB or a Safety..i think Watson has the advantage.

 

[zippo59]

Can you give me some of this history? Just curious as it seems counter-intuitive to me.

Tony Gonazalez has had at least 900 yards the past four seasons, with wide receivers like Eddie Kennison, Johnny Morton, and Sammie Parker.

Antonio Gates has had at least 900 yards the past three seasons with wide receivers like Keenan McCardell, Eric Parker, and Vincent Jackson.

Alge Crumpler has been a star tight end and everyone knows Atlanta's wide receiver futility. They have Roddy White, Brian Finneran, Michael Jenkins, and Ashley Lelie.

The Colts have Dallas Clark but they also have Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, and as a result, (also due to some injuries) Dallas Clark has never had more than 488 yards in a season.

Jeremy Shockey has never had great wide receivers- Amani Toomer, Ike Hilliard, Plaxico Burress (who is good but very inconsistent.)

In 2004 Jason Witten had 980 yards while Keyshawn Johnson and Terry Glenn combined for just 1300 yards.

There are times where TEs can put up pretty big numbers even when playing with good wide receivers, but for the most part, when TEs put up crazy numbers they have less than average wide receivers.

I expect Watson to have a good year but when TEs are the primary receiving target of an offense it usually means the wide receivers aren't very good.

 

[Remix 6]

Whoever is open will get the ball. I think with more on 1 on 1s and safeties back, Watson will get more open looks. If hes open..its his ball

 

[sebman2112]

Assuming his foot heels in timely fashion and without complications (profootballweekly reports that this is the case), IMO David Thomas is the best TE on the Patriots. He has terrific hands, great instincts, is a developing blocker and will become a 3rd down machine. In this offense he can be a Jason Witten. Watson is a great talent, but not as reliable, and Brady gravitates toward reliability over talent when deciding where to go with the ball. Having the two of them on the field simultaneously will be ideal. IMO K. Brady will be the odd man out barring injury. As far as numbers go, my early take on production is

Moss 70 catches 1100 yards 10 TDs
Stallworth 50 catches 700 yards 5 TDs
Thomas 35 catches 450 yards 4 TDs
Watson 30 catches 400 yards 4 TDs
Welker 55 catches 600 yards 2 TDs
Faulk 25 catches 200 yards 1 TD
Maroney 40 catches 300 yards 3 TDs
Caldwell/Gaffney/Washington 45 catches/500 yards/3 TDs

total: 350 completions/4250 yards/32 TDs

Maroney rushing: 300 carries/1400 yards/12 TDs

I doubt Thomas will have more catches than Watson, unless Watson goes down with injury.

Also, 50 catches for 700 yards is only a per catch average of 14, which is below Stallworth's career average. 700 yards is less than Stallworth's yearly output from 2004 up.

Brady had a better yards per completion in '05 and this year he'll have better vertical threats, so I think he'd have more yards if he completes 350 passes.

 

[PonyExpress]

I doubt Thomas will have more catches than Watson, unless Watson goes down with injury.

Also, 50 catches for 700 yards is only a per catch average of 14, which is below Stallworth's career average. 700 yards is less than Stallworth's yearly output from 2004 up.

Brady had a better yards per completion in '05 and this year he'll have better vertical threats, so I think he'd have more yards if he completes 350 passes.

Adjustment period, injury history, different offensive roles need to be factored in. I believe Thomas if healthy will eventually become the primary receiving threat at TE. It may take 1/2 the season for this to develop, but sooner or later it will. He provides a reliability and comfort for a Qb that cannot be overestimated.

 

[Remix 6]

Adjustment period, injury history, different offensive roles need to be factored in. I believe Thomas if healthy will eventually become the primary receiving threat at TE. It may take 1/2 the season for this to develop, but sooner or later it will. He provides a reliability and comfort for a Qb that cannot be overestimated.

why would he take over Watson? Watson is stronger..faster..and a bigger playmaker.

Thomas has yet to prove nearly as much as Watson. doubt we take our 4th round TE and replace our 1st round TE who hasnt done terribly

 

[PonyExpress]

why would he take over Watson? Watson is stronger..faster..and a bigger playmaker.

Thomas has yet to prove nearly as much as Watson. doubt we take our 4th round TE and replace our 1st round TE who hasnt done terribly

I see Thomas providing the same safety valve to Brady that he did to VY at Texas, similar to what Troy Brown was in the past. I know you were familar with his great hands, sneaky speed, and great coordination from his Texas' days, and the Jaguar game provided a hint of things to come. He has a natural feel for the game and the great hands that truly elite TEs possess. Power and speed are valuable, but reliability, hands and instincts are more valuable. BTW, I really like Watson, I am just sky high on Thomas' potential, and have been since his college days.

 

[maverick4]

I see Thomas providing the same safety valve to Brady that he did to VY at Texas, similar to what Troy Brown was in the past. I know you were familar with his great hands, sneaky speed, and great coordination from his Texas' days, and the Jaguar game provided a hint of things to come. He has a natural feel for the game and the great hands that truly elite TEs possess. Power and speed are valuable, but reliability, hands and instincts are more valuable. BTW, I really like Watson, I am just sky high on Thomas' potential, and have been since his college days.

I agree, Dave Thomas is or will soon be better than Ben Watson. Watson is a physical freak and amazing athlete, but Thomas will be the better tight end and security blanket. Both players won't get more than 30 balls this year though.

 

[sebman2112]

Adjustment period, injury history, different offensive roles need to be factored in. I believe Thomas if healthy will eventually become the primary receiving threat at TE. It may take 1/2 the season for this to develop, but sooner or later it will. He provides a reliability and comfort for a Qb that cannot be overestimated.

I've already said in the past that I would not be surprised if Thomas developed into NE's starting TE down the road, but he's not taking Watson's job in '07, sorry.

 

[PonyExpress]

I've already said in the past that I would not be surprised if Thomas developed into NE's starting TE down the road, but he's not taking Watson's job in '07, sorry.

The Pats run a 2 TE offense. I never said Thomas "would take Watson's job". They will both start, and barring injury to either one of them, K. Brady will be a situational player when the Pats want to power block.

 

[Remix 6]

The Pats run a 2 TE offense. I never said Thomas "would take Watson's job". They will both start, and barring injury to either one of them, K. Brady will be a situational player when the Pats want to power block.

Brady is gonna start over thomas

1) Thomas broke his foot
2) Brady is a much better blocker than Watson and Thomas

 

[PonyExpress]

Brady is gonna start over thomas

1) Thomas broke his foot
2) Brady is a much better blocker than Watson and Thomas

According to profootballweekly, Thomas' foot is expected to heal well and not affect his progress this season. I hope this is true. Of all magazines IMO profootballweekly is the most wired into the Patriots. This may be due to BB and Pioli's affection for the original draft nerd who worked there. But every combine they seem to have dinner with Pioli in Indy. IMO Thomas is an underrated blocker. Evidence of this can be seen in LoMo's 27 yard TD run vs Jacksonville, which Thomas sprung with a key block. As I know you're aware, the 2 TE offense is predicated on 2 versatile TEs each of whom can threaten the defense as receivers. This creates indecision and matchup problems for the defense, because from play to play they have no idea whether a run or pass will be called, because either can come effectively out of the same formation. Kyle Brady is unsuited to that style offense, and is better suited to obvious running situations or against overmatched D-lines. The problem with the Pats' 2 TE offense when Graham and Watson were paired up is (1) the receivers were mediocre and (2) neither Graham or Watson is a reliable chain-moving target. Each is prone to drops although capable of the big play. This led Brady in key situations to ignore the TEs and overuse Troy Brown. Good example is 3rd and 4 vs Indy. Perfect situation for a TE pass. I see Thomas as being the best substitute. In the Jacksonville game, and even the Houston game, Brady immediately gravitated toward Thomas despite his inexperience, because he felt comfortable throwing him the ball.

 

[sebman2112]

The Pats run a 2 TE offense. I never said Thomas "would take Watson's job". They will both start, and barring injury to either one of them, K. Brady will be a situational player when the Pats want to power block.

When they run two TE sets it will more likely be Watson and Kyle than Watson and Thomas. Thomas and Watson are both primarily pass catchers, and while they have both been working on blocking, Kyle Brady is a very good blocking TE. The point is most two TE sets will have one really good blocking TE, and one pass catching TE, so it will be Watson out there on most of those situations. This is why Thomas will not catch more passes that Watson, unless there's an injury.

 

[sebman2112]

According to profootballweekly, Thomas' foot is expected to heal well and not affect his progress this season. I hope this is true. Of all magazines IMO profootballweekly is the most wired into the Patriots. This may be due to BB and Pioli's affection for the original draft nerd who worked there. But every combine they seem to have dinner with Pioli in Indy. IMO Thomas is an underrated blocker. Evidence of this can be seen in LoMo's 27 yard TD run vs Jacksonville, which Thomas sprung with a key block. As I know you're aware, the 2 TE offense is predicated on 2 versatile TEs each of whom can threaten the defense as receivers. This creates indecision and matchup problems for the defense, because from play to play they have no idea whether a run or pass will be called, because either can come effectively out of the same formation. Kyle Brady is unsuited to that style offense, and is better suited to obvious running situations or against overmatched D-lines. The problem with the Pats' 2 TE offense when Graham and Watson were paired up is (1) the receivers were mediocre and (2) neither Graham or Watson is a reliable chain-moving target. Each is prone to drops although capable of the big play. This led Brady in key situations to ignore the TEs and overuse Troy Brown. Good example is 3rd and 4 vs Indy. Perfect situation for a TE pass. I see Thomas as being the best substitute. In the Jacksonville game, and even the Houston game, Brady immediately gravitated toward Thomas despite his inexperience, because he felt comfortable throwing him the ball.

Seriously, we don't know how reliable Thomas can be, yet. He's only seen limited chances, and while he looked good in that small window we don't really know that he'll be able to play like that week in, and week out. I've already said I like the guy, but let's see him get healthy, and produce a little more before we start putting him ahead of Watson on the depth chart.

 

[PonyExpress]

Seriously, we don't know how reliable Thomas can be, yet. He's only seen limited chances, and while he looked good in that small window we don't really know that he'll be able to play like that week in, and week out. I've already said I like the guy, but let's see him get healthy, and produce a little more before we start putting him ahead of Watson on the depth chart.

Nobody is putting Thomas ahead of Watson on the depth chart. The Pats run a 2 TE offense and there is room for both. The key to a 2-TE offense is the versatility of each TE, which K. Brady lacks. Threrefore, once Thomas proves his health, I believe K. Brady will be relegated to a situational player.

 

[NordicVoyager]

Last year we gained 5,369 yards on the season.

I had no idea that we gained so many yards over the year. Is there any way that you can put this number into context? For instance, what might the NFL team average be over the last three to five years? Or what has been best ever, or top five in the last period of time? Thanks in advance.

 

[sebman2112]

Nobody is putting Thomas ahead of Watson on the depth chart. The Pats run a 2 TE offense and there is room for both. The key to a 2-TE offense is the versatility of each TE, which K. Brady lacks. Threrefore, once Thomas proves his health, I believe K. Brady will be relegated to a situational player.

Most two TE sets utilize one TE who is a very good blocker (Kyle), and one pass catcher. I'm not ready to label Thomas as a very good blocker, especially since he's primarily been a pass catcher. Last year NE had one mostly pass catching TE in Watson, and one TE who can be a pass catcher but is an outstanding blocking TE in Graham. Your idea of the two TE set is not it's general utilization in the NFL. Look at most teams that use or have used two TE sets frequently in the NFL, and you'll notice one TE is used mostly as a blocker. Most of those teams are power running teams, as well. NE tried to use more of a power running game last season, because of the lack of receiving threats. They might use two TE sets slightly less this year, since they have better receiving threats.