Beisel Revisited

[arrellbee]

All of the points made, which certainly are excellent ones for what is important for the ILB, just simply miss the point.

Certainly, it seems as though folks feel as though Beisel has been lacking in these and I would agree. And the things you mention CAN be improved on with experience and coaching.

However, none of these excellent points are what is critically wrong with Beisel.

One of the things that is critically wrong is that he doesn't TRY to disengage from a block, or at least try all that hard. If you don't disengage, you are playing exactly what the X's and O's offensive guy needs to have happen - a block that stays a block and doesn't let the LB loose to pursue and tackle. Simple. Even when he tries, it takes him forever to get away from the blocker. Note the play I mentioned in the 2nd post where Vrabel had been able to disengage his guy and take almost 5 strides before Beisel got loose and Colvin was able to come across from the totally opposite side of the LOS and still get there a half step behind Beisel.

The other critical flaw is that this guy just does not try to get to the runner in traffic, even when the runner is in front of him !! I'll do the Jets game as soon as I get a couple hours. There are at least a couple plays (actually I think at least 3) that show this dramatically. Even if you read my comments on the Jags game, you will see that, even in this game, in two plays where the runner was coming right by the position he was in, he never laid a hand on the runner or even managed to push toward the runner.

Do you think that these flaws can be coached ? I have serious doubts. I would certainly agree that most if not all of the other comments were about issues that can get significantly better with coaching and experience, but these don't seem to fit into that category.

As Mike the Brit said: "What BB didn't say: he's tough, committed and has excellent technique."

And McBee: "No aggressiveness, no instincts, gone. He can lift all the weights in the world, but it won't matter."

One thing seems like a complete consensus. Belichick IS the master talent judge and we'll know by final cuts or the first few games of the season what his evaluation of Beisel is !! Soooooo hard to wait, but at least camp is here !!

/Cheers

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

All of the points made, which certainly are excellent ones for what is important for the ILB, just simply miss the point.

One of the things that is critically wrong is that he doesn't TRY to disengage from a block, or at least try all that hard. If you don't disengage, you are playing exactly what the X's and O's offensive guy needs to have happen - a block that stays a block and doesn't let the LB loose to pursue and tackle. Simple. Even when he tries, it takes him forever to get away from the blocker. Note the play I mentioned in the 2nd post where Vrabel had been able to disengage his guy and take almost 5 strides before Beisel got loose and Colvin was able to come across from the totally opposite side of the LOS and still get there a half step behind Beisel.

"No aggressiveness, no instincts, gone. He can lift all the weights in the world, but it won't matter."

What can be interpreted as lack of instincts could also be lack of understanding of where to be in position in the play. Picking it up is not easy. 2nd year in the season should help.

Everyone agreed that Vrabel did a better job last year, but Vrabel weighs 266, Beisel 238. That difference cannot be discounted. Vrabel can use sheer size to disengage. Bruschi uses technique. And Beisel must use technique because of size. But you cannot use technique with one arm.

What can be interpreted as not trying to disengage could also be being vastly overpowered, one-armed because of broken fingers, and just plain old not able to disengage. Sure Beisel wasn't effective, no argues that he was. He took his lumps. He had a lot to learn and the only reason he was out there was because of Bruschi's stroke, not because BB wanted him out there. This is about as unfair as Brady going down last year, a young QB stepping up in a new and difficult system over many weeks with a injuries at OL and WR and then criticizing him for throwing picks. He's bigger, healthier and has Bruschi next to him (who helps everybody know where to line-up as the signal-caller at the LOS). Its a new season, new TC. Last year was all "effed up" right down the line. We had no real running game, and it was our undoing in the Denver game. John Lynch said they didn't respect our running game, so they went after Brady, and we didn't have balance.

 

[PatsFan37]

Do you think that these flaws can be coached ? I have serious doubts. I would certainly agree that most if not all of the other comments were about issues that can get significantly better with coaching and experience, but these don't seem to fit into that category.

See Tom Curran's blog for this afternoon's practice. He says, "Bill Belichick spent a long time working with linebackers Monty Beisel and Eric Alexander on a block-shedding drill."

Apparently someone things block shedding can be coached. Count me as one of the guys who is looking for Beisel to address these flaws.

 

[RayClay]

What goes on, or is said, in another forum, should not, and does not, carry over in this forum. Here, we are all united with one common goal.

And that is, of course, to make NEM offensive coordinator.

There's another forum?

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Interesting thread, Arrellbee. Nice break down of the Jags game.

I think that the injury made a difference last year, when you consider that Beisel had to go to the hospital for a serious infection in his hand right before the Denver game.

But he will need to improve if he is going to be counted on this year.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

As I've posted many times, I am not a fan of Beisel's. I think he lacks intensity, instincts and functional football strength.

However, just to be fair, I do want to add a couple of things. In one of the Q&A sessions with the writers, one of the writers said that Beisel had a bad shoulder at the end of last season. A bad shoulder would negatively affect his ability to shed a blocker. Also an infaction on the hand would also negatively affect a player's ability to grasp and control, prior to shedding.

I believe just as someone said earlier, that BB has brought in Brown as an OLB so he can find that compliment to Colvin, which would allow him to move Vrabel back inside. I don't see TBC as an OLB in the base defense. And I can't see Mincy or Woods making any contribution to the base defense this year.

 

[arrellbee]

I mentioned in the posts at the top of the thread that I would try to take a look at Beisel in the Jets game. I've been able to get thru the 1st quarter, so here that is:

Miami Game - Week 17

1st Quarter

1st - 11:14, 11:08, 10:25, 10:20 - didn't record
1st - 9:13 - Very Bad
Pass. Colvin rushes. Beisel is Mike. Beisel sets up 6 1/2 yards back from LOS. WR is out on strong side. At snap, TE releases and Beisel rushes straight ahead (blitzing ??) and totally ignores TE release. The TE HAS to be Beisel's responsibility as Mike (no safety up or rushing). TE gets 9 yard pick up.
1st - 9:00 - Poor
pass. Beisel is Mike blitzing up the middle. Gets thru LOS clean. RB (not FB) cut blocks him and Beisel goes down.
1st - 8:57 - OK
2 TE set. 3rd and 1. FB and RB go over OLG which is Vrabel's gap. Vrabel trips RB. Beisel blocks over ORG and then thrusts across toward RB. Doesn't make contact as far as I can tell. RB falls forward for 3 yard gain and first down.
1st - 8:24 - Poor to Very Poor
Beisel is Will covering OLG gap. No pass responsibility - RB is offset to Vrabel's side, not Beisel's. So Beisel has pure run assignment. He sets up 5 yards from LOS. At snap, Beisel takes a couple stutter steps for about 1 1/2 yards toward LOS and stops as he sees ORG coming off LOS toward him. You kind of have to see it, but basically, he pulls up and stops as the ORG hits him so ORG just drives him back a couple of yards totally out of play. Vrabel ends up making tackle for 1 yard gain
1st - 7:50 - OK
shotgun. 4 WR package. Beisel blitzes on his side and he is unblocked to the QB, but the ball is released before he gets close.
1st - 7:10 - Couldn't tell
3rd and 1. QB sneak for 2 yards and 1st down. Couldn't tell which ILB was which
1st - 6:34 - Beisel out - 4-3 defense
1st - 6:18 - Bad to Very Bad
Beisel is Will on right side of defense. RB heads for OLG gap on Beisel's side. OLT and OLG double team Seymour. Now you'll have to explain this one to me. Instead of rushing into the OLG gap to meet the runner, Beisel heads toward Seymour's back putting him on the outside of the OLG double teaming Seymour. Doesn't make sense ?? Consequently, as Seymour goes to his knees, the OLG continues on and pushes Beisel away to the outside completely away from the RB. Inexplicable.
1st - 5:44 - Bad
Beisel is Will. Blitzes. Gets thru LOS clean. Ricky Williams blocks him and stops him dead. Ferotte steps up into the pocket and Beisel starts to turn towards him and Ricky Williams just reaches out and shoves Beisel 2 yards away from Ferotte. Ferotte cuts back behind Williams going to the outside. Beisel turns to pursue and Williams cut blocks him to stop him dead again as Ferotte takes off on the outside which is Beisel's contain assignment. Ferotte gets 5 yards before he goes into slide.
1st - 4:58 - OK
2 TE set. Beisel blitzes - gets stopped at LOS. He didn't get thru but that's not unusual.
1st - 4:34 - Can't tell - Beisel drops into coverage - can't tell what his assignment would be
1st - 4:02 - Terrible
First and goal from the 2. Ball is snapped and Beisel rushes forward directly behind Warren. As Ricky Williams crosses the 5 yard line, Beisel is standing facing towards the middle of the line totally unblocked. Instead of launching forward towards the middle where Williams is headed, Beisel hops sideways toward the goal line essentially paralleling Williams. He never even makes a move in the slightest toward the middle where Williams is coming thru.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Frerotte, Ricky Williams, Jets ???

 

[shakadave]

Listen to what Vrabel (a vet) learned last year by playing inside....
http://www.beloblog.com/ProJo_Blogs/PatsBlog/archives/2006/07/postpractice_ch.html
"When there's a good edge outside it allows the inside guys to slow down; I learned that. I went inside and noticed that with Rosey (Colvin) and Willie (McGinest) you can slow down. It's not like you have to fly outside because the ball will eventually come back in. I said that to Tedy (Bruschi) and he said, 'That's what i think when you're out there.' When i moved inside I realized how important that is to the defense."

One of the best reads of the year --- thanks!

 

[arrellbee]

Frerotte, Ricky Williams, Jets ???

Arrrgh. Make that Miami. Thanks.

 

[pats1]

1st - 5:44 - Bad
Beisel is Will. Blitzes. Gets thru LOS clean.

Just wanted to clear something up hear that everyone seems to be talking about.

Beisel isn't a Will. The Will in a 3-4 is going to be the weakside/ROLB. Either Vrabel or Colvin. The Sam is going to be the strongside/LOLB.

The Mike is the strong ILB, while the Jack is the weak ILB.

 

[flutie2phelan]

Re: BB's June 14 Press Conference

Q: What do you think of Monty Beisel as a football player? What do you like about him?

BB: He’s a smart kid. He works hard and is in good condition. I think he has a lot of positives and a lot of good traits and a lot of things going for him.

I share your scepticism, Arrellbee. What BB didn't say: he's tough, committed and has excellent technique.

I hope that we're proved wrong.

Since t/c began has Curran (or someone else?) interviewed Dean Pees?
I'd appreciate any evidence that i didn't just dream this.

But i feel very confident that in recent days i have seen Pees say
(the equivalent of) "Beisel improved enormously over the course of the season.
And now he's lots better even than the end of last season."

He coached the LBs last year. He oughta know.
I didn't expect to be citing that statement ... so i can't pin it down.
Perhaps someone else can.

But i distinctly remember thinking,
Well, that seals that. Stop worrying about Beisel.

 

[arrellbee]

Just wanted to clear something up hear that everyone seems to be talking about.

Beisel isn't a Will. The Will in a 3-4 is going to be the weakside/ROLB. Either Vrabel or Colvin. The Sam is going to be the strongside/LOLB.

The Mike is the strong ILB, while the Jack is the weak ILB.

?? ?? ?? ??

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=19601&pcid=41

"I don’t find this stuff dry, Jaime, in fact these are some of my favorite questions. This brings us back to good ol’ basic football. No contracts. No egos. Just football.
Bruschi has been playing the Mike spot in the New England defense for some time now, especially when he played alongside a few years back Roman Phifer. Beisel played the spot last year early in the season, with Chad Brown taking reps at Will. While Will is the name of the weakside outside linebacker in a 4-3 defense it’s the weakside inside linebacker spot in a 3-4 defense. The Mike is the middle linebacker in the 4-3 and strongside inside linebacker in the 3-4. The Mike is the more stout, run stuffer playing on the strong side of the offensive formation, a role that Johnson filled very well when he was healthy. The other spots in the New England defense are the Sam, strongside outside linebacker, and the Jack, the weakside outside linebacker. The names are more roles than players, though, as the outside guys generally play a side more than a formation and have to be able to switch roles if the offense changes the strength of formation through motioning of players.
Keeping all that in mind, Beisel’s build and athleticism should make him a better fit at Will playing next to Bruschi. Bruschi has grown into a very good Mike linebacker and should be able to help Beisel improve his production in his second season in the system.
As confusing as it all seems, I hope that clears some things up for you.
Andy Hart"

Do you have some other references on how they are designated Pats1 ?
Needless to say, there are all kinds of terms that are used in different fashions around the league.

I had thought that it was:

4-3
Will - weak outside
Mike - middle
Sam - strong outside

3-4
Jack - weak outside
Will - weak inside
Mike - strong inside
Sam - strong outside

Personally, I don't see why they didn't keep it simple and keep the Will the same for in both schemes as an OLB and just add a term for the weak ILB. Oh well.

 

[pats1]

?? ?? ?? ??

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=19601&pcid=41

"I don’t find this stuff dry, Jaime, in fact these are some of my favorite questions. This brings us back to good ol’ basic football. No contracts. No egos. Just football.
Bruschi has been playing the Mike spot in the New England defense for some time now, especially when he played alongside a few years back Roman Phifer. Beisel played the spot last year early in the season, with Chad Brown taking reps at Will. While Will is the name of the weakside outside linebacker in a 4-3 defense it’s the weakside inside linebacker spot in a 3-4 defense. The Mike is the middle linebacker in the 4-3 and strongside inside linebacker in the 3-4. The Mike is the more stout, run stuffer playing on the strong side of the offensive formation, a role that Johnson filled very well when he was healthy. The other spots in the New England defense are the Sam, strongside outside linebacker, and the Jack, the weakside outside linebacker. The names are more roles than players, though, as the outside guys generally play a side more than a formation and have to be able to switch roles if the offense changes the strength of formation through motioning of players.
Keeping all that in mind, Beisel’s build and athleticism should make him a better fit at Will playing next to Bruschi. Bruschi has grown into a very good Mike linebacker and should be able to help Beisel improve his production in his second season in the system.
As confusing as it all seems, I hope that clears some things up for you.
Andy Hart"

Do you have some other references on how they are designated Pats1 ?
Needless to say, there are all kinds of terms that are used in different fashions around the league.

I had thought that it was:

4-3
Will - weak outside
Mike - middle
Sam - strong outside

3-4
Jack - weak outside
Will - weak inside
Mike - strong inside
Sam - strong outside

Personally, I don't see why they didn't keep it simple and keep the Will the same for in both schemes as an OLB and just add a term for the weak ILB. Oh well.

I'm sure you could use them interchangeably, but to me it makes more sense to keep the OLBs the same and have the Jack inserted at the unique 2nd ILB spot.

Personal preference, I guess.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

8am: Monty wakes up and has a power shake
8:15: he goes P
8:30 : he comes back to bed to ....

c'mon!
The over analyzing is weak

-Monty will be 100% better this year playing with Ted. Ted's going to motivate and keep Monty pissed.

The season's almost hear-then we'll see.

 

[AzPatsFan]

?? ?? ?? ??

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=19601&pcid=41

"I don’t find this stuff dry, Jaime, in fact these are some of my favorite questions. This brings us back to good ol’ basic football. No contracts. No egos. Just football.
Bruschi has been playing the Mike spot in the New England defense for some time now, especially when he played alongside a few years back Roman Phifer. Beisel played the spot last year early in the season, with Chad Brown taking reps at Will. While Will is the name of the weakside outside linebacker in a 4-3 defense it’s the weakside inside linebacker spot in a 3-4 defense. The Mike is the middle linebacker in the 4-3 and strongside inside linebacker in the 3-4. The Mike is the more stout, run stuffer playing on the strong side of the offensive formation, a role that Johnson filled very well when he was healthy. The other spots in the New England defense are the Sam, strongside outside linebacker, and the Jack, the weakside outside linebacker. The names are more roles than players, though, as the outside guys generally play a side more than a formation and have to be able to switch roles if the offense changes the strength of formation through motioning of players.
Keeping all that in mind, Beisel’s build and athleticism should make him a better fit at Will playing next to Bruschi. Bruschi has grown into a very good Mike linebacker and should be able to help Beisel improve his production in his second season in the system.
As confusing as it all seems, I hope that clears some things up for you.
Andy Hart"

Do you have some other references on how they are designated Pats1 ?
Needless to say, there are all kinds of terms that are used in different fashions around the league.

I had thought that it was:

4-3
Will - weak outside
Mike - middle
Sam - strong outside

3-4
Jack - weak outside
Will - weak inside
Mike - strong inside
Sam - strong outside

Personally, I don't see why they didn't keep it simple and keep the Will the same for in both schemes as an OLB and just add a term for the weak ILB. Oh well.

There are other ways of describing the 3 4 LB position

SOLB or LOLB strongside or leftoutside
SILB or LILB stronginside or leftinside
WILB or RILB weakinside or rightinside
WOLB or ROLB weakside or rightoutside