BB Doesn't Agree That JC91 is a bust and wasn't a need

[jays52]

I agree with this distinction between "elite" and "transcendent", and think it's important. Luke Kuechly is an elite player, but not a transcendent one. Darrelle Revis would fall into the same category - he is supremely good at what he does, but he doesn't break the mold for a CB. You want a great MLB or a great CB and you point at them as the prototypes.

JJ Watt, OTOH, is a transcendent player - he breaks the mold. A 3-4 DE who produces 20 sack seasons and has more passes defended than most DBs "just doesn't exist", to use your term. Collins and Gronk are both transcendent players to me. As you say, a guy with "the hips of a defensive back, the speed and range of an inside linebacker, and the explosion of an elite defensive end" just doesn't exist.

Exactly. I had a line referencing Revis which I decided to take out but it makes me feel smart that we had the same thought.

 

[mayoclinic]

BTW, I'm not sure that I consider Calvin Johnson to be a "transcendent" player. I understand that 6'5" 230# guys are not supposed to be that fast, but I'm not sure that his skill set redefines the position, or break the mold.

 

[james87654]

lol....give me time......ill post a video

 

[james87654]

Word.

My bad on that, man. What was the gist of it?

its nothing.....dont worry about it.......im just trolling like usual

in the thread about bradys fancy training and diet routine, you alluded to him and TRT

 

[RobertWeathers]

BTW, I'm not sure that I consider Calvin Johnson to be a "transcendent" WR. I understand that 6'5" 230# guys are not supposed to be that fast, but I'm not sure that his skill set redefines the position, or break the mold.

I tend to agree. Hes a great player, but not transcendent.

When I think of transcendent WRs...I think of Moss.

 

[james87654]

Word.

My bad on that, man. What was the gist of it?

There's no question that his preparation, diet, recovery, preventative work, and mental sharpening are all elite. Incredibly elite. Combine that work ethic with his now virtually bottomless capital and he'll obviously have a remarkable program.

I also think that a lot of this is attributed to how far sports medicine has advanced. What we know now compared to when he won his last Super Bowl is a completely different era. Plus, he also has access to treatments that are almost science fiction like regenokine. I'd also completely expect him to be receiving TRT treatment which is really the big one. Diet, prep, rehab and prehab are all great but when the endocrine system goes so does everything else, especially recovery.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm going to go way out on a limb, but part of what appealed so strongly to me about Dominique Easley is that I think he has the potential to become a "transcendent" player. There are few enough guys with his explosiveness and ability to disrupt, and they are usually highly coveted; none have Easley's versatility and ability to line up in so many gaps and disrupt in so many ways. He may never put it together or stay healthy long enough to become that player, but I truly believe that the potential is there, which is why I was so excited about the pick, much as I was with Collins.

I don't think you really want every player to transcend normal positional categories, even if it were possible to find them. You need a structure of guys who are very good at well defined roles, which allows those other rare guys the freedom to break the mold.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm going to go way out on a limb, but part of what appealed so strongly to me about Dominique Easley is that I think he has the potential to become a "transcendent" player. There are few enough guys with his explosiveness and ability to disrupt, and they are usually highly coveted; none have Easley's versatility and ability to line up in so many gaps and disrupt in so many ways. He may never put it together or stay healthy long enough to become that player, but I truly believe that the potential is there, which is why I was so excited about the pick, much as I was with Collins.

I don't think you really want every player to transcend normal positional categories, even if it were possible to find them. You need a structure of guys who are very good at well defined roles, which allows those other rare guys the freedom to break the mold.

Great post. I agree. Guys that special you figure out how to bring the most out of their gifts.

I'm still on board with the Easley pick. When he is "on", his speed, quickness and while he doesn't have the girth, his playing strength is off the charts ridiculous.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

BTW, I'm not sure that I consider Calvin Johnson to be a "transcendent" player. I understand that 6'5" 230# guys are not supposed to be that fast, but I'm not sure that his skill set redefines the position, or break the mold.

I disagree that Calvin Johnson isn't transcendant. If he isn't who is @ WR? I love Moss for the record probably my favorite player to watch ever, but Moss was tall, fast and could jump really high but didn't run the entire route tree and wasn't a + blocker either. What can't Calvin Johnson do? He also does things a man his size shouldn't be able to do. Stafford also isn't very good. If Stafford was drafted by the Rams he would be a backup by now.

Megatron isn't transcendant but Easley could be? Put the drink down Mayo I know it's New Years day but man...

 

[Rob0729]

Huh?

(Ian, can you check to see if there's a bug in the software? I think Rob0729 is the victim of demonic possession by his avatar.)

C'mon, everyone except apparently Belichick knows Jamie Collins is a bust and always will be a bust because the Pats drafted Tavon Wilson the year before. The only reason the Giants escaped Lawrence Taylor from being a bust was because they were lucky enough to avoid drafting Tavon Wilson the year before him.

If you need further explanation, you might want to PM Deus to ask him. He can explain it best.

 

[mayoclinic]

I disagree that Calvin Johnson isn't transcendant. If he isn't who is @ WR? I love Moss for the record probably my favorite player to watch ever, but Moss was tall, fast and could jump really high but didn't run the entire route tree and wasn't a + blocker either. What can't Calvin Johnson do? He also does things a man his size shouldn't be able to do. Stafford also isn't very good. If Stafford was drafted by the Rams he would be a backup by now.

Megatron isn't transcendant but Easley could be? Put the drink down Mayo I know it's New Years day but man...

I didn't say Easley was transcendent, I said he had the potential to be. And I was using specific definitions. An "elite" player who doesn't break the mold isn't necessarily less good or valuable than one who "transcends" normal categories and definitions, and the two are synergistic. Jamie Collins wouldn't be nearly as effective without having McCourty, Revis and Browner in the secondary. There's certainly no question that Calvin Johnson plays his position right now at a much, much higher level than Dominique Easley.

I can understand the Calvin Johnson argument working both ways - which is why I said that I "wasn't sure". Johnson is undoubtedly a physical freak, and certainly has played his position at an elite level. I can buy your argument about "doing things a man his size shouldn't be able to do". I'm just not sure that it redefines his position. Being able to run the whole route tree and block are things that a complete WR should be able to do, not things that transcend the position. Julio Jones does all those things about as well as Calvin Johnson, if not better; he's not quite as big, but just as fast if not faster.

I don't know the answer, and I'm not trying to get hung up on it.

 

[Marqui]

I would say Von Miller is a transcendent athlete as well.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

I didn't say Easley was transcendent, I said he had the potential to be. And I was using specific definitions. An "elite" player who doesn't break the mold isn't necessarily less good or valuable than one who "transcends" normal categories and definitions, and the two are synergistic. Jamie Collins wouldn't be nearly as effective without having McCourty, Revis and Browner in the secondary. There's certainly no question that Calvin Johnson plays his position right now at a much, much higher level than Dominique Easley.

I can understand the Calvin Johnson argument working both ways - which is why I said that I "wasn't sure". Johnson is undoubtedly a physical freak, and certainly has played his position at an elite level. I can buy your argument about "doing things a man his size shouldn't be able to do". I'm just not sure that it redefines his position. Being able to run the whole route tree and block are things that a complete WR should be able to do, not things that transcend the position. Julio Jones does all those things about as well as Calvin Johnson, if not better; he's not quite as big, but just as fast if not faster.

I don't know the answer, and I'm not trying to get hung up on it.

Julio Jones also has questionable hands and has had the benefit of playing next to another WR1 and a top 5 TE for the majority of his career. I know Roddy is fading now, but prior to last season it was pick your poison. Going to be interesting watching his production from here on out. I also don't think Julio is as physical as Megatron can be when 100%. He doesn't impose his will on you necessarily in the way Megatron and Gronk can do to defenders when healthy. But I think Julio does the size and speed stuff just as good as far as a down field target goes and he's obviously a beast. I would also bet he is faster than Megatron.

I acknowledged in my post that you were referencing Easley's potential of being transcendent, which is fine on it's face, but it just sounded a little wonky to me when you were hesitant to give Megatron the same compliment that's all.

Def nothing to get hung up on.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I disagree that Calvin Johnson isn't transcendant. If he isn't who is @ WR? I love Moss for the record probably my favorite player to watch ever, but Moss was tall, fast and could jump really high but didn't run the entire route tree and wasn't a + blocker either. What can't Calvin Johnson do? He also does things a man his size shouldn't be able to do. Stafford also isn't very good. If Stafford was drafted by the Rams he would be a backup by now.

Megatron isn't transcendant but Easley could be? Put the drink down Mayo I know it's New Years day but man...

No one in NFL history had Moss size and speed and made ridiculous plays on a daily basis like him.

If you are looking for transcendent players that are at Moss's level that run all the routes-then Jerry Rice is your guy.

For running backs...You Know Bo. 225lbs and runs a 4.19 40...insane.

 

[mayoclinic]

Doug Farrar highlights Jamie Collins as one of 4 players to watch this weekend:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/08/nf...nd-hidden-stars-jamie-collins-michael-bennett

Among other things, there's a nice quote from Ravens' coach John Harbaugh on Collins:

“This guy is a budding star. He’s a guy that we really liked a lot at Southern [Mississippi]. I know [Belichick] went down there personally and worked Jamie out, and just did a great job evaluating him as a player and fitting him into their scheme. A lot of scouts didn’t know where to play him; that was the hang-up with him. But [Belichick] did, and he’s one of the top young players in football.”

The Ravens took MLB Arthur Brown 4 picks after Collins. I shudder at the thought of Collins as a potential Raven.

 

[Love The Drake]

Doug Farrar highlights Jamie Collins as one of 4 players to watch this weekend:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/08/nf...nd-hidden-stars-jamie-collins-michael-bennett

Among other things, there's a nice quote from Ravens' coach John Harbaugh on Collins:


The Ravens took MLB Arthur Brown 4 picks after Collins. A shudder at the thought of Collins as a potential Raven.

Times a million!
Would be awful facing Jamie Collins with that D line!

 

[Ivan]

Quick question.

Does transcendent mean that he sucks beyond belief?

Because if so that's all deus was trying to say- so cut the guy some slack.

 

[BHSL2]

Judging by our Initial LB depth when Mayo went down, I'd say he was a need filled well in advance

 

[mayoclinic]

A nice video piece on Collins from SI.com. Well worth watching.

http://www.si.com/nfl/video/2015/01/07/rising-stars-jamie-collins-new-england-patriots

 

[Ivan]

A nice video piece on Collins from SI.com. Well worth watching.

http://www.si.com/nfl/video/2015/01/07/rising-stars-jamie-collins-new-england-patriots

They really need to keep this defense intact and even add another piece or two. One more season in this system together and I think they will be a top 2-3 defense. One more front seven defender and a safety and it is going to be incredibly good. I think the front seven defender will be another hybrid who can play DE and OLB. I think what we are seeing this season is just aprecursor of what is to come from this defense. Jones, Collins, Hightower, Easeley, Ninkovich, and Ayers are all malleable b players who can be moved all around and create serious confusion and havoc for opposing offenses. It reminds me of the Tom Waits song---What's He Building In There.