B6 Camp Notes - Can I have gravy on my crow? Can someone get Boyce a 5 hour energy?

[Kontradiction]

Realistically Amendola is never going to have a 100+ catches and 1000+ yards because he could be anything from the #3 option to the #5 option in the offense, he is sure to be behind Gronkowski and Edelman, and then we will see how Dobson and LaFell fit into the mix. GIven that his success is going to have to be measured differently, it will be more about him making impact plays with the 75-90 targets he will probably see in 2014. If he can catch a high rate of his targets, average 11-12 yards a catch, and convert key first downs I will consider the season a success, I would like to see some level of consistency but they be hard for him since he is not a top 2 option and could fit into the mix differently depending on game plans.

Amendola and Edelman are terrific to have on the team but at the end of the day what is going to make the difference is Gronkowski, Dobson, and LaFell, we need those players to step up and make big plays, because most of Edelman and Amendola’s catches are going to be efficient but unspectacular. Last season when Gronkowski and Dobson were out we lacked the big play threat, and it was problematic.

For one, Edelman and Gronk have had their injury histories as well. I think you may be forgetting that. For another, it was pretty clear in Week 1 that Amendola was Brady's primary read on the majority of passing plays until he went down with injury (and, even then, he was still Brady's primary read on the final drive). If Amendola is never going to have a 100+ catch, 1000+ yard season, it's not going to be because he's not a top two option. It will be because he's injured... again... and is only playing at a portion of what he's fully capable of. If Gronk is healthy, he'll be the primary read on some plays while Amendola will be secondary and vice versa. Same can be said of Edelman. But you're way underselling the importance of the Y receiver in this offense. You're almost underselling it to the point where I'm beginning to wonder whether or not this thread is one big trolling attempt so you can bait people in, then begin to pile on Amendola again.

 

[Brady6]

Really? You seem awfully sure about this. Ironic however that you bust on DA all over the place when you can particularly about his injuries and you now are claiming that two guys who have also had several injury problems are surely going to be ahead of him.

Just stop already. You need help.

Edelman was the top target last season, and has been the top target throughout camp for Brady. Gronkowski has consistently been a top 1 or 2 target on the Patriots when healthy over the course of his career. If a player is injured obviously things will change but right now I am speaking under the pretense that all players are healthy. I cannot predict an injury to Edelman and Gronkowski anymore than I can to Amendola.

As far as needing help, I have never seen anyone so consumed with anger and hate on an internet forum in my life as you, every chance you get you come running to say something hateful to me, so if you think I need help you really should do some self reflection because your jihad against me is 75% of what you do on this board.

 

[Brady6]

For one, Edelman and Gronk have had their injury histories as well. I think you may be forgetting that. For another, it was pretty clear in Week 1 that Amendola was Brady's primary read on the majority of passing plays until he went down with injury (and, even then, he was still Brady's primary read on the final drive). If Amendola is never going to have a 100+ catch, 1000+ yard season, it's not going to be because he's not a top two option. It will be because he's injured... again... and is only playing at a portion of what he's fully capable of. If Gronk is healthy, he'll be the primary read on some plays while Amendola will be secondary and vice versa. Same can be said of Edelman. But you're way underselling the importance of the Y receiver in this offense. You're almost underselling it to the point where I'm beginning to wonder whether or not this thread is one big trolling attempt so you can bait people in, then begin to pile on Amendola again.

I am not undervaluing anything, Amendola received 83 targets in 2013, that was on a team without Gronkowski for 11 games, Dobson and Thompkins as rookies, and no LaFell. I said he would receive 75-90 targets this season, it seems about right to me. I do not think Edelman will see a 150 targets this season, I think the footballs are going to be spread around more.

As far as the trolling comment, that is just being paranoid and petty. There is nothing disparaging about me saying a player would get 75-90 targets and be a 3rd option behind the best TE on the planet and a player who had 100 catch 1000 yards season in 2013. As far as the injuries go, I cannot assume an injury to Gronkowski or Edelman anymore than I can Amendola so I certainly am not going to base my opinion of the offense on it today, if someone is injured obviously things will change but without a crystal ball I am going with what I said. If you disagree fine, but do not make stupid accusations just to try and strengthen a weak argument.

 

[Bruins29]

Edelman was the top target last season, and has been the top target throughout camp for Brady. Gronkowski has consistently been a top 1 or 2 target on the Patriots when healthy over the course of his career. If a player is injured obviously things will change but right now I am speaking under the pretense that all players are healthy. I cannot predict an injury to Edelman and Gronkowski anymore than I can to Amendola.

That was last year, this is this year. DA showed that he can be a legit threat. Your continued veiled shots at him are funny though. There is nothing other than DA being injured and JE being the only reliable target last year that makes me think that is always the way it will be. DA if healthy could be a number 1. It "could" happen.

As far as needing help, I have never seen anyone so consumed with anger and hate on an internet forum in my life as you, every chance you get you come running to say something hateful to me, so if you think I need help you really should do some self reflection because your jihad against me is 75% of what you do on this board.

How am I consumed with anger and hate? I just call it like I see it and you have an agenda and an insecurity problem and a persecution complex. What have I said hateful to you? Once I asked if you had a problem. That is "every chance I get". Also, how come it is you always involved in arguments here?

Your jihad against Amendola is of legendary patsfan.com stuff. I only wish I could develop a jihad against you that was 1/100th as dedicated. As always, its everyone else, not you.

Grow up.

 

[Bruins29]

You're almost underselling it to the point where I'm beginning to wonder whether or not this thread is one big trolling attempt so you can bait people in, then begin to pile on Amendola again.

Kontra, thank you for pointing it out.

 

[Brady6]

That was last year, this is this year. DA showed that he can be a legit threat. Your continued veiled shots at him are funny though. There is nothing other than DA being injured and JE being the only reliable target last year that makes me think that is always the way it will be. DA if healthy could be a number 1. It "could" happen.

As I said Edelman has been the top target throughout camp as well, which is this year, if you read any camp observation you would see that, and based on the fact he was an offseason award winner I would say Edelman did the things needed to remain a top target.

I am not sure how many footballs you think Brady is going to throw but on a team with Gronkowski, Edelman, Dobson, Vereen, LaFell, Thompkins and maybe White or Boyce all seeing targets 75-90 balls to one player is a lot of targets.

How am I consumed with anger and hate? I just call it like I see it and you have an agenda and an insecurity problem and a persecution complex. What have I said hateful to you? Once I asked if you had a problem. That is "every chance I get". Also, how come it is you always involved in arguments here?

Your jihad against Amendola is of legendary patsfan.com stuff. I only wish I could develop a jihad against you that was 1/100th as dedicated. As always, its everyone else, not you.

No it is not always everyone else, but it is always you, you have a hard on for me and anyone can tell that just by looking at your posting history. Are you even a football fan, because I never see you talk about the sport, all I see you do is quote my posts and talk **** like a punk. You run your mouth saying crap you would never say to people in real life, you think I do not know your type, forums are filled with posters like you. You tell me to grow up, I tell you to go away, do not quote my posts, interact with me, let me spell it out for you, I do not like you, I think your annoying and immature, I wince every time I see an alert that you quoted one of my posts because I know it is going to be a big waste of my time from a little mouse who keeps spinning on a wheel hoping to achieve something, I would love to tell you how the real world works but I do not have the time and I honestly do not think you would understand. So like I said GO away.

 

[Kontradiction]

I am not undervaluing anything, Amendola received 83 targets in 2013, that was on a team without Gronkowski for 11 games, Dobson and Thompkins as rookies, and no LaFell. I said he would receive 75-90 targets this season, it seems about right to me. I do not think Edelman will see a 150 targets this season, I think the footballs are going to be spread around more.

You're definitely undervaluing the value of the Y receiver in this offense. One could very easily make a case that Amendola would have hit the 100 catch plateau if he had not gotten injured in Week 1. So you're either assuming an injury will happen to him with the 75-90 catch projection (which you said you weren't doing), or you're undervaluing it. There's no other way around that. So, tell me, which of the two is it?

As far as the trolling comment, that is just being paranoid and petty.

Not petty at all. The owner of this forum told you to lay off the Amendola jihad. This just looks like a well masked way to get back to it while trying to avoid repercussion. Nothing personal intended, just the way it reads. That you're obviously irritated about me saying that is noted, however.

 

[patfanken]

The thing is that if ANY receiver this season has 100 catches it will mean that the basic strategy that the brain trust has put in motion with its personnel decisions has failed. While the media and fans are obsessing over finding true #1 receivers, the Pats have decided that the best way to go is by have a deep group of solid #2's. Why? Because now the defenase has no one to focus on. Now Brady can go back to being the kind of QB he was a decade ago, when he spread the ball around more successfully.

Over the past 5 years, injuries and circumstances have forced Brady to target one receiver well beyond the norm, like Welker and Edelman. I really like the idea of Brady now being able to throw to any of 3 or 4 RELIABLE targets. I hope that in this TC, Brady is gearing himself to have that "open man" mind set.

One of the things that I will be looking for when the the team starts the regular season is how the ball is being spread around. I really don't want to see many 10 catch performances by any one receiver.

 

[Joker]

God Bless OUR Danny Amendola!

only the best wide receiver in the league and probably NFL history if you need him..

 

[Kontradiction]

The thing is that if ANY receiver this season has 100 catches it will mean that the basic strategy that the brain trust has put in motion with its personnel decisions has failed. While the media and fans are obsessing over finding true #1 receivers, the Pats have decided that the best way to go is by have a deep group of solid #2's. Why? Because now the defenase has no one to focus on. Now Brady can go back to being the kind of QB he was a decade ago, when he spread the ball around more successfully.

Over the past 5 years, injuries and circumstances have forced Brady to target one receiver well beyond the norm, like Welker and Edelman. I really like the idea of Brady now being able to throw to any of 3 or 4 RELIABLE targets. I hope that in this TC, Brady is gearing himself to have that "open man" mind set.

One of the things that I will be looking for when the the team starts the regular season is how the ball is being spread around. I really don't want to see many 10 catch performances by any one receiver.

You may not want to see it, but the game plan may and probably will call for it. The slot (Y) receiver's role in this offense has become extremely important since Welker came aboard. A lot of the time, Amendola is going to be Brady's primary read on any given passing play. That's going to be due to the defensive formation and match-ups, but Amendola (if he's playing) will be the guy Brady's going to look to first a lot of the time. You can tell as much by reading the TC reports. That's not to speak negatively of the other targets, just the reality of this offense.

 

[Brady6]

You're definitely undervaluing the value of the Y receiver in this offense. One could very easily make a case that Amendola would have hit the 100 catch plateau if he had not gotten injured in Week 1. So you're either assuming an injury will happen to him with the 75-90 catch projection (which you said you weren't doing), or your undervaluing it. There's no other way around that. So, tell me, which of the two is it?

Maybe he could have in 2013, but this season is different, we have Dobson, Thompkins, and maybe Boyce entering their second year, Edelman as a established NFL receiver, LaFell as an addition, and reportedly Gronkowski will play in week 1 on. I do not think 100 catches is in the cards for anyone.

I said 75-90 targets, not catches.

Not petty at all. The owner of this forum told you to lay off the Amendola jihad. This just looks like a well masked way to get back to it while trying to avoid repercussion. Nothing personal intended, just the way it reads. That you're obviously irritated about me saying that is noted, however.

My OP was about - Amendola having a good camp, Boyce having a lack of effort, what I thought of LaFell and the role he could play in the offense, and what I thought the offense would do this season based on what I saw in my trip to practice. You and a few others have chosen to only focus on the Amendola aspect, and I have responded to you and them on their posts. I respond to the posters the same way when asked about Boyce and LaFell. You want to talk about Amendola so I respond to you, do not attempt to make that into my trolling, I said he was having a good camp and made a nasty move at practice, you could have left it at that, and I would have too.


Maybe you are just trolling my thread trying to start an Amendola debate because you think I will give you the reaction you lust for, either way you and I are done talking about this, if you would like to talk about football I am in but you can take your false and baseless accusations elsewhere.

 

[Bruins29]

As I said Edelman has been the top target throughout camp as well, which is this year, if you read any camp observation you would see that, and based on the fact he was an offseason award winner I would say Edelman did the things needed to remain a top target.

I am not sure how many footballs you think Brady is going to throw but on a team with Gronkowski, Edelman, Dobson, Vereen, LaFell, Thompkins and maybe White or Boyce all seeing targets 75-90 balls to one player is a lot of targets.



No it is not always everyone else, but it is always you, you have a hard on for me and anyone can tell that just by looking at your posting history. Are you even a football fan, because I never see you talk about the sport, all I see you do is quote my posts and talk **** like a punk. You run your mouth saying crap you would never say to people in real life, you think I do not know your type, forums are filled with posters like you. You tell me to grow up, I tell you to go away, do not quote my posts, interact with me, let me spell it out for you, I do not like you, I think your annoying and immature, I wince every time I see an alert that you quoted one of my posts because I know it is going to be a big waste of my time from a little mouse who keeps spinning on a wheel hoping to achieve something, I would love to tell you how the real world works but I do not have the time and I honestly do not think you would understand. So like I said GO away.

Coming from a dishonest attention whore like yourself this is comic gold. And, yes, I would say this to your face. You were told to put me on ignore, you said you did, then you took me off because you have to know what people are saying about you. Psycho.

You have a problem with several posters on this forum who happen to think you are obnoxious. But you are right, its just me and all of them....And you are right. I never talk about football. Just stalk you.

Get over yourself.

Did you call to any mods today to erase any posts that make fun of you? Clown.

 

[primetime]

100 catch seasons are pretty rare. We've grown accustomed to them because of Welker and now Edelman, but last season there were 5 receivers with over 100 catches. In 2012, there were 5 receivers and one tight end. In 2011, there were 2 receivers.

Julio Jones, Deion Branch, and Vincent Jackson have never had 80 catch seasons in their careers. Jordy Nelson had 85 catches last year and 68 in 2011. Victor Cruz, despite being consistently productive, has never had more than 86 receptions. Miles Austin's best season was 81. Marques Colston has never had 100 catches.

I'm not sure why Amendola is automatically an unsuccessful player if he doesn't catch 100 balls, a plateau that is much more difficult to reach than it's being made out to be in this thread.

 

[patfanken]

You may not want to see it, but the game plan may and probably will call for it. The slot (Y) receiver's role in this offense has become extremely important since Welker came aboard. A lot of the time, Amendola is going to be Brady's primary read on any given passing play. That's going to be due to the defensive formation and match-ups, but Amendola (if he's playing) will be the guy Brady's going to look to first a lot of the time. You can tell as much by reading the TC reports. That's not to speak negatively of the other targets, just the reality of this offense.

That may turn out to be the reality, K. But if it is, then I don't see the offense growing from what what we saw last season (not that last season sucked- 3rd in scoring O). I'm hoping that, (especially if Gronk is back) the ball would get spread around more. I would particularly like to see the RB's more involved

Just a thought - Is anyone surprised that we haven't seen a single "back shoulder fade" being thrown this TC. Is TB saving that only for Dobson?

 

[Brady6]

Coming from a dishonest attention whore like yourself this is comic gold. And, yes, I would say this to your face. You were told to put me on ignore, you said you did, then you took me off because you have to know what people are saying about you. Psycho.

You have a problem with several posters on this forum who happen to think you are obnoxious. But you are right, its just me and all of them....And you are right. I never talk about football. Just stalk you.

Get over yourself.

Did you call to any mods today to erase any posts that make fun of you? Clown.

I am here to talk about football. If you do not want to talk about football we have nothing to talk about.

 

[Fencer]

One could even argue that, assuming equal health, the LESS talented of Edelman and Amendola will get more targets and catches, because that's the guy who will be stuck in his comfort zone in the slot rather than being used more outside.

I'm not sure I really believe that, but it illustrates that detailed predictions about catch counts and so on are silly unless one absolutely needs to make one's best effort on them for fantasy purposes.

 

[patfanken]

One could even argue that, assuming equal health, the LESS talented of Edelman and Amendola will get more targets and catches, because that's the guy who will be stuck in his comfort zone in the slot rather than being used more outside.

I'm not sure I really believe that, but it illustrates that detailed predictions about catch counts and so on are silly unless one absolutely needs to make one's best effort on them for fantasy purposes..

Fencer, I think one of real under reported stories of this TC has been the development of Julian Edelman as a true "outside WR". He has consistently gotten open running both deep and medium range routes. I am wondering if he is developing his game to the level where eventually he'll get compared to someone like Steve Smith.

 

[Brady6]

I'm not sure why Amendola is automatically an unsuccessful player if he doesn't catch 100 balls, a plateau that is much more difficult to reach than it's being made out to be in this thread.

I agree, that was my point which was overlooked I think the offense is designed to be more spread out so we have to adjust out expectations for Amendola and Edelman. In years past a successful season would have been 100+ catches and 1000+ yards for that type of player. I don't think that will be the case this season I think success would be catching a high percentage of the targets for a solid yards per catch average, and converting a number of key third downs.

Brady completes around 400 passes a season, so if you believe (baring injury) Gronkowski, Edelman, Dobson, Vereen, Amendola, LaFell, and Thompkins are going to be involved in the offense it will be hard to have one player catching 100 footballs. If players are injured then things change and the opportunity for a 100 catch season may be there.

 

[Kontradiction]

Maybe he could have in 2013, but this season is different, we have Dobson, Thompkins, and maybe Boyce entering their second year, Edelman as a established NFL receiver, LaFell as an addition, and reportedly Gronkowski will play in week 1 on. I do not think 100 catches is in the cards for anyone.

The rotation of receivers, including Dobson, Thompkins, and LaFell is going to be at flanker and split end. With regard to the slot, it's only Amendola and Boyce right now and Amendola looks to take the lion's share of the snaps there. That means he'll probably on the field more than the other WR's on the team are, assuming health. Given that and given how important the Y receiver has become to this offense, I don't see why Amendola couldn't amass 100 catches if he were healthy. Again, you said you're assuming health, so I have to come to the conclusion that you're simply undervaluing the position.

I said 75-90 targets, not catches.

No you didn't. You started off talking about how you thought Amendola would never receive 100 catches and only began talking about targets to move the goalposts...

Realistically Amendola is never going to have a 100+ catches and 1000+ yards because he could be anything from the #3 option to the #5 option in the offense, he is sure to be behind Gronkowski and Edelman, and then we will see how Dobson and LaFell fit into the mix.

My OP was about - Amendola having a good camp, Boyce having a lack of effort, what I thought of LaFell and the role he could play in the offense, and what I thought the offense would do this season based on what I saw in my trip to practice. You and a few others have chosen to only focus on the Amendola aspect, and I have responded to you and them on their posts.

Not that this is relevant to the topic at hand, but I'll respond. Most of my responses in this thread hinged from being contratulatory to you for moving on to stating why people jumped on you in the past. I never confronted you about Amendola until the 100 catch remark, which I felt was incorrect.

I respond to the posters the same way when asked about Boyce and LaFell. You want to talk about Amendola so I respond to you, do not attempt to make that into my trolling, I said he was having a good camp and made a nasty move at practice, you could have left it at that, and I would have too.

This was before you concluded that he would never be a 1,000 yard receiver in an offense that stresses the Y receiver more than most without qualifying why. So you can see how others would be suspicious that this could possibly be one, big, massive, trolling thread. The more you keep responding about it and getting defensive, the more I'm getting convinced that it is.

Maybe you are just trolling my thread trying to start an Amendola debate because you think I will give you the reaction you lust for, either way you and I are done talking about this, if you would like to talk about football I am in but you can take your false and baseless accusations elsewhere.

This is nonsense and smacks of a deflection.

 

[Brady6]

Realistically Amendola is never going to have a 100+ catches and 1000+ yards because he could be anything from the #3 option to the #5 option in the offense, he is sure to be behind Gronkowski and Edelman, and then we will see how Dobson and LaFell fit into the mix. GIven that his success is going to have to be measured differently, it will be more about him making impact plays with the 75-90 targets he will probably see in 2014. If he can catch a high rate of his targets, average 11-12 yards a catch, and convert key first downs I will consider the season a success, I would like to see some level of consistency but they be hard for him since he is not a top 2 option and could fit into the mix differently depending on game plans.

Amendola and Edelman are terrific to have on the team but at the end of the day what is going to make the difference is Gronkowski, Dobson, and LaFell, we need those players to step up and make big plays, because most of Edelman and Amendola’s catches are going to be efficient but unspectacular. Last season when Gronkowski and Dobson were out we lacked the big play threat, and it was problematic.

The rotation of receivers, including Dobson, Thompkins, and LaFell is going to be at flanker and split end. With regard to the slot, it's only Amendola and Boyce right now and Amendola looks to take the lion's share of the snaps there. That means he'll probably on the field more than the other WR's on the team are, assuming health. Given that and given how important the Y receiver has become to this offense, I don't see why Amendola couldn't amass 100 catches if he were healthy. Again, you said you're assuming health, so I have to come to the conclusion that you're simply undervaluing the position.



No you didn't. You started off talking about how you thought Amendola would never receive 100 catches and only began talking about targets to move the goalposts...





Not that this is relevant to the topic at hand, but I'll respond. Most of my responses in this thread hinged from being contratulatory to you for moving on to stating why people jumped on you in the past. I never confronted you about Amendola until the 100 catch remark, which I felt was incorrect.



This was before you concluded that he would never be a 1,000 yard receiver in an offense that stresses the Y receiver more than most without qualifying why. So you can see how others would be suspicious that this could possibly be one, big, massive, trolling thread. The more you keep responding about it and getting defensive, the more I'm getting convinced that it is.



This is nonsense and smacks of a deflection.

You should read my first post again about targets and Amendola. I quoted it for you here. You will clearly see you are wrong. My opinion is consistent from beginning to end.

Also so you know we primarily run an offense that is an X-WR, Z-WR, H-WR, and Y-TE so I'm not sure where the stressing of the Y-WR is coming from.

The 100 catch remark is valid I'm not sure how many times you expect Brady to throw it but any receiver catching 100 footballs seems very unlikely to me. If someone gets injured that would change but I cannot project that.