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Asante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BeauSox, May 9, 2007.

  1. BeauSox

    BeauSox Rookie

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    Assante Samuel. Hes been the Cornerstone Cornerback this team has needed. Over the course of our 4-5 year run our DBs have been oft injured. Hes been the one constant CB over the last two years, and over that span has IMO earned his contract.

    He has been slapped with the Franchise tag, and is slated to earn around 7.3 million this season. He wants a long term deal. His situation is EERILY similar to the negotiations with Deion Branch last offseason although Assante hasnt (to my knowledge) threatened to hold out. The Pats obviously have elected a policy of paying a player fairly, but they weigh in a "tax" if you will for being a perennial Contender. They take a "We dont NEED YOU, you NEED US" approach.

    Id like the scope of this thread to cover what the max contract Samuel Deserves vs What the pats will/are offering, What exactly Samuel's Resonable trade value is, and What possible deals could be explored to help this team win now and/or in the long run.
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  2. DarrylS

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    Re: Assante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

    This thread has been discussed ad infinitum on this board, bottom line is Samuel had a very good year, he is being offered 7.79 million, there have been offers on the table that reflect the salary structure of the pats, he can either play on the franchise tag and continue to prove himself or he can sit out. It is in his best interest to take the franchise money or the contract and continue to play for the contract. He wants Nate Clements money for 1 good year.. lets see how he does this year.

    To compare it to the Branch is a poor analogy, Deion had a year left on his contract and he chose to break the agreement.
  3. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Re: Assante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

    yes..a really poor analogy at best..one really foos year does not make one a cornerstone..consistency is VERY important!! NOT that his other years were poor..they were not..he has had some injuries and...interesting that it has been quiet on the front..
  4. Mack Herron

    Mack Herron Rookie

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    This is nonsense

    The Pats pay the payroll they are allowed to pay by the salary cap just like everyone else. They understand that depth is important in the NFL, and that paying one guy a little more means paying another guy a little less. That means that balance throughout the lineup means balance throughout the salaries on the team. Teams that value balance less pay their superstars more but the guys at the end of hte roster less. That is why we can lose front line players and still compete at the highest level.
  5. solman

    solman Rookie

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    Re: Assante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

    Asante wants to be paid as if he will consistently perform at his 2006 level.

    The Patriots know that this is improbable, and require a substantial discount to offset the likelihood that Asante rarely (if ever) repeats his 2006 performance.

    These two views are irreconcilable.

    Asante will be playing for the Pats in 2007 under the Franchise Tag.

    Asante will not sit out this season because he loves money too much, and $7.8M is a lot of money (Nearly four times as much as he has earned during his entire lifetime).

    Signing the Franchise tag offer means instant lifetime financial security for Asante. It also means an instant massive upwards change in life style.

    It doesn't make financial sense for Asante to give that up. Even if it did make financial sense, Asante lacks the temperment to do so. He wants money, and he wants it now.

    In 2008, the Patriots will decide that Asante isn't worth over $9.3M, and decline to place the Franchise tag on him. He will sign a multiyear deal which is substantially less than what Nate Clements got.

    In 2009, the Patriots will receive a third round compensatory pick to make up for the loss of Asante in free agency.
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  6. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Re: Assante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

    That all sounds good..really..I do think he will not sit out...and it is possible he'll have another good year..but like 06?? not likely.. If so..then MAYBE NC money
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    For a 1st post, its not bad, though you make same incorrect statements and an incorrect comparison.

    1) Samuel is slated to make 7.79 million. If he signs the tender, that money is guaranteed.

    2 ) How can the situation with Samuel be "EERILY" familiar to Branch's situation when Branch never responded to contract offers? And, because Branch never responded to contract offers, he really had no idea how high the Pats were willing to go with their offers.

    3) I believe you are wrong about the approach the Patriots take. They take an approach that every good business man takes. They set a value that they are willing to pay and refuse to go over that value. That is sound business practice.
  8. primetime

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    Re: Assante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

    The problem is that the only way to characterize Asante's play up until last year was inconsistent. He'd make crushing hits and pick off nice passes, but he'd also miss tackles spectacularly or get burned by guys he should've been able to cover like a blanket. Even last year, there was the occasional guy he could not cover or tackle he'd miss.
  9. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    O.K. Cousin,
    I agree with your assessment of the business posture of the Pats F.O. I believe the idea is to come to a "reasonable" medium. Assante wants to get paid like a N.Clements or better. You are not going to convince any sane team (thats a joke today) that he is worthy of Clement money and has Bailey talent My take on this is simple. And maybe it's like seeing the forest through the trees with both sides.

    I think the signing bonus, i.e. the "ka-ching" this young man has in his pocket right now, is the driving force behind his contract, not the contract value long-term itself. He's like any other kid. They live for today (got kids?). He can't see four years down the road when the money is all added up. He's a kid that desires to get a big fat check from "the man", before he even dons the uniform this year. That's the real deal for him.

    These following figures were done in a vacuum and not said to be point-on accurate, but just for idea purposes. My idea would be to give him a contract of say $5.5 m which he would not stand for, But... I would take the base difference of what he wants as a signing bonus and the money saved by the FO on the four years of this contract and add it back in to his signing bonus they were willing to offer. Now the goal is the Pats FO is looking for consistency. Let Assante and his agent prove consistency by allowing incentives on a very lucrative and plentiful scale. Usually, a Pro Bowl and camp appearance bonus escalator dollars are included as example in a contract that Assante would have been offered. The Pats should give him that bit on a larger scale as in $2 million for Pro Bowl (then it is banked that he had a good year by everyones' standards). Now this year tainted that theory, but a formula could be decided as to the stats on choices made for the DB's for Hawaii. A escalator per every interception. An escalator for PBU. An escalator for tackles behind the line and tackles period. You can even make a case for games played. Lets see if money drives a player to play with a slight ankle tweak, as example.

    So you give him his four year contract, take the minimal base. Add the savings to the Pats presently offered signing bonus and hit him with realistic escalators to show him money can be made for Assante. The result for the Pats is they get their consistency, or they did not overpay for a one year wonder.

    Most of the guys out there reading this that a have hourly jobs know that to make a few more dollars, you might have to work overtime. You understand this. Assante can be working for his money by doing "overtime". Maybe he studies more film to get more INTs or PBUs, works out more to get stronger, or works harder on his play after practice. That's O.T.

    I know it's simplistic and it sounds like Assante will be working on commission, but aren't we all when you think of it?
    DW Toys
  10. PatsMyBoyz!

    PatsMyBoyz! Rookie

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    ESPN's First Take just interviewed an analyst from the WC who stated he spoke with Samuel's agent yesterday. According to the agent, Samuels has no intention of reporting for anything this offseason until he is signed long-term or traded. Also reported was that the Patriots are not considering trade as an option right now.
    I only caught this interview in progress so I don't even have the analyst's name,nor could I find a link of any kind yet so take this fwiw.

    * This analyst also spoke with Seau re Moss and the Pats-Seau said the only real way a player can fail in NE is if he wants to. According to Seau,BB only asks you to do what he knows you can do well,and as long as you do what Belichick says,you will succeed.

    If the Asante report is accurate,it feels like deja vu all over again.
  11. DarrylS

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    IMO this is pretty f...king stupid, Assante had a very good year, is this what can be expected of him every year or is it a one year happening. Not signing for the 7.79 will not elicit much sympathy from many fans. If he does not sign consider the consequences:

    1. He will be labeled as a malcontent, as someone who flew below the radar and now is a major pain the ass if he does not get his own way.
    2. Was the '06 season the exception or the rule, will not be known if he plays the '07 season..

    Sitting out is idiotic for Assante, pushing away 7.79 million is equally as stupid, he and his agent need slaps in the head to help them figure this out.
  12. JustWinBrady

    JustWinBrady Rookie

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    Since he hasn't signed the franchise contract, he is not under contract and has no obligations to attend any off-season related activities.
  13. 37Harrison

    37Harrison Rookie

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    Asante will sit out as long as he needs to in order to get what he feels is owed to him. I think this is just a stupid idea. The Pats are not going to trade him nor are they going to give him NC money.

    By sitting out he is showing other teams what motivates him. By sitting out he is not being a "team player" nor will he be able to improve on the '06 season.

    If he wants a long term contract he needs to come in and work his butt off and show that he is worth the amount of money that he wants. I sure as heck wouldn't tie up any large sums of money on anything that I didn't feel was beneficial to me, why should Kraft? My point, get into camp, improve on your skills, play the da*n game and show everyone what you're worth! One stellar season doesn't = $$. Consistency will be rewarded, fairly for both parties.
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  14. psychoPat

    psychoPat Role Player PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course you're correct ... objectively.
    But what else can the agent say? He needs a bargaining stance.
    It has zero information content.
  15. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Deja Vu? It's totally different. Samuel has no contract. He is not holding out. he is abiding by the CBA. Branch vioalted his contract and the CBA.

    If Samuel wants a long term contract, he cannot sign the franchise tender. As soon as he does, he has a contract and must report, and leaves himself open to be tendered again, and zero leverage to get a long term deal brokered.

    Since he must not sign the tender, he absolutely cannot report. If he does and gets hurt, the Pats withdraw the tender and he gets nothing.

    I don't understand what the hullaballo is all about.

    What he is doing is not only the right thing (if he wants a long term contract), it is the only possible thing.

    He doesn't have to report until a few days before the first game. If he reports earlier, he is a moron.

    If he wants to play for the tender, he should not sign (and show up at training camp) until the Pats agree not to franchise him again. They will. They did it for Vinatieri. It is almost standard for franchised players to extract this concession if the team wants them at training camp.
  16. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There is one other way you can fail in NE, and that is to overvalue youself and/or miscalculate your value to this team. If getting every last dollar available matters more to you than winning championships with this team, then you eventually prove to Bill that you never really belonged here to begin with.

    The contract they offered him last fall had a $7.5M signing bonus. That pales in comparison to some of the idiotic bonus money bad teams are often willing to throw at guys they expect to come in and be impact players. Of course when those players don't impact bad teams as expected, they don't see the backend of their deals - or often anything like them ever again. With a bonus that size, which remains near the top of what the Patriots have paid (save for Brady and Seymour and now Thomas), they were likely looking to pay Asante in the $4.5-5M per range as a quality piece of an ensemble cast - which is what he is. He apparently was insulted. I'm not convinced they weren't overvaluing him slightly at that price (although with the final year of his rookie deal to include in it's amortization - like the Seymour deal - it would have worked fine for me...).

    Since then they have raised their offer to a deal that reportedly averages $6M per. No reports of how that offer was structured, but it likely included a double digit (albeit split) signing bonus which is what he reportedly wanted last fall.

    Only now his parameters have vaulted upward and he reportedly wants a deal that includes in the vacinity of $30M in bonus and guarantees. The only players who have received deals approaching that level on this team are Brady and Seymour. If Asante sees himself as their peer, he's beyond delusional.

    Few consistently successful franchises can afford to have more than a couple of players in the top 5 in earnings at their positions not only from a financial positions but from a risk management position. And they damn well better be bodafide top 5 talents at that. Brady and Seymour earned their deals through consistent performance over a span of 4-6 seasons. Brady's deal also evolved in increments even after winning 3 superbowls and being named MVP of 2. And his deal remains a below market one. Seymour's deal is about at market, although by signing it a year early the team was able to benefit from it hitting the cap at below market terms. Thomas' deal is top tier although he left a million per on the table to sign here. I think that's our quota for now.

    I don't see this team overcommitting to this player simply to placate him on the way to a championship - as many here say they want them to. Nor do I see this team or this player doing the franchise tag dance in back to back seasons. And I don't see this player coming around to their way of thinking given his and his agents recent comments. Ergo I don't see Asante here beyond this season, if that.

    I think they either settle on a one year deal that guarantees him his freedom next season as a UFA, for which we likely get a 3rd round comp pick in 2009, or they trade him in August much like they did with Deion when they finally realized he wasn't going to show up despite an $8M signing bonus on a 3 year $19M deal (or reportedly an $11M signing bonus on a 5 year $31M deal) that was sitting on the table - because he wanted several million more. And at least on paper, he got it. Asante appears to want several million more. And if he believes it's out there, as it could well be through camp given the current cap situation of several teams who have done little with their abundant cap to date, he'll hold out for his big payday via trade.

    And I don't see the Pat's waiting 9 weeks to see if he decides to sign his tag at any point and still pocket more just for showing up than many of his current teamates will earn in a career. They weren't willing to wait for Deion, and he would have been skulking back with is tail between his legs, potentially oweing money and playing for free just to get a year of service credit. Asante could hold out until the bye week and still get half of his franchise tag or almost $4M. And his only concerns in the interim would be slipping in the shower or having the tag rescinded and becoming an immediate UFA.
  17. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Re: Assante Samuel ~ A Contract or A Trade?

    If Asante performs at a high level in '07 they will place the franchise tag on him again for '08. Obviously at that point his contract demands likely will not go down, so they'll trade him to whatever team is willing to pay him, and give NE a first round pick. If Asante has an '07 simular to his '06 performance there is no way they'd just allow him to talk, and other teams would be all over trading for him since he'd still be in his prime and coming off two great seasons.

    If his productions drops off I could see NE letting him walk, or maybe resigning him since he'd likely be worth slightly less.

    It's going to be interesting to see what happens, and I really think he's not going to leave $7.79M on the table by refusing to play.
    Last edited: May 9, 2007
  18. MoLewisrocks

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    Please let's not get carried away. They've offered him a long term contract, just not at the price he desires. And they did not agree, at least in writing (rumored conversations aside), to not franchise Adam again. In fact he is on record after signing in Indy as saying had NE franchised him in 2006 he would have signed the tender (which unlike the deal thay offered him at franchise like money minus any signing bonus would have been guaranteed immediately as opposed to worth zilch until you made the 2006 roster). Which is exactly what he did in July 2005. In fact I believe he even participated in the off season program that year and in 2002 prior to signing his tender.

    It's one thing to say he's within his rights. It's another to portray him as a poor working stiff availing himself of the only reasonable avenue open to him. Chicago reportedly hasn't offered their franchise tagged player a contract at all since last fall. To me that is a little different scenario. They don't seem to want to negotiate with him. And they apparently are willing to consider trading him at a price. We have been negotiating with Asante, whether he likes what we're offering or not. And it is substantially more than we were offering him at the end of last season. And we have not apparently broached a trade with any other team to date.

    I understand this is all part of a dance. Asante and his choreographer agent just need to be mindful of where the stage ends lest they topple off it. I've seen some recent interviews with Deion, and he's not the same grinning, happy go lucky piece of the puzzle he was here. Comfort level is gone, and the first blush of depositing that first bonus check is waning. He sees the situation in Seattle for what it is, and realizes it could impact him adversely in just a year or two unless he can carry a QB and a unit and an offense as opposed to merely complimenting it.
  19. DarrylS

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    The best bargaining stance for Assante is to sign the 7.79 tender, and play to the level he did in '06... if he sits the question is was his play in '06 the exception or the rule.. we and the other 31 teams do not know unless he plays.
  20. PatsMyBoyz!

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    Great responses from all, both viewpoints well-represented. Obviously "deja vu" was not to be taken literally as the situations are very different yet one thing this one has in common with Branch is the potential for another mess.
    We likely have a pretty good concept of what the Pats' move (or lack thereof) may be but we really don't know which tactic Asante and his dance partner will choose. We definitely know he intends to get paid,and we question just what value the Pats place on him;we've read the arguments for both sides on that one.
    One would think Asante'd be ok with the franchise money this year but obviously he's not,nor was he happy with whatever deal the Pats offered initially. Hopefully things get worked out by July or so and we can move forward into the season sans any hullabaloo hanging over our heads.
    Going back to Mo's point about Branch's present situation and how he'd need to perform this season,we could look at Samuel's situation in much the same light. The team is locked and loaded,quite obviously intending to be in AZ come February,and our CB is nowhere to be found because he's too busy waiting to Get Paid. If he's so good,then get out there and be part of it-contribute to it,star in it. Work your tag like your life depended on it and next year he'll be paid,if not by the Pats then by someone else,and there'd be no furthur contract year performance questions.
    Back up your fries and go win. If you want to be paid like Nate then play like Nate. Asante has an opportunity to come up big this season and prove he is what he says he is. Play your ***** off this year and that tat has an excellent chance of coming to fruition.

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