As Usual, 31 GM's Are Ignorant & Stupid

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

If a 7th round tight end from this year's draft becomes an all-pro, were the Pats stupid for not drafting him? Not really. We already have the best tight end tandem in the league.

Welker was undrafted, so does that make all 32 GMs at that time stupid?

Teams make mistakes, or in other cased make incorrect educated guesses.

Teams have different draft priorities from one another, different current roster holes to fill, have different risk tolerances, and calculate risk/reward ratios differently.

It's also a bit too early to brag about what a steal the guy was when he hasn't played an NFL down just yet. I am hopeful, but he's got to show me something. I was all excited about Guyton a few years back, as an undrafted steal. That kind of evaporated quickly, did it not?

 

[MrNathanDrake]

wow I hate some fans arrogance.

BB and the Pats passed on Denard many, many times as well.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Dennard is sure #3 CB possibly, or a #2 I'm told.

Why exactly did 31 GM's think that Dennard wasn't worth a 6th or 7th round draft choice? Does no one else need corners enough to spend a 6th or 7th on a 1st or 2nd round talent? Does no other team need depth at cornerback?
========================================
Maybe Dennard will fight with Dowling and Arlington for reps. Surely Dennard will be our #3 by midseson.

Maybe Dennard with fight with Moore for a roster spot as our first backup off the bench (the #4 CB).

Maybe Dennard with fight with Allen and Coles for the last defensive defensive back roster spot or spots.

Surely 3 or 4 other teams will want our 7th round draft choice if we try to put Dennard on the Practice Squad! After all, training with the patriots will lift him from a player they didn't want to develop in camp to a player they would now want on their 53 man roster. How does this make any sense? Every year there are 6th, 7th and UDFA's that folks think that some team will want on their 53, apparently just because he spent time on the Patriot roster. Sometimes players are wanted on other teams. More often, they are not.

BTW, when was the last time a 7th rounder didn't make it to the Practice Squad?
================================

BOTTOM LINE

I'm glad to have Dennard. He was a fine choice in the 7th round. Dennard may or may not be a reasonable choice for a roster spot.

HOWEVER, if he were anywhere as good as so many here think, some team would have taken a shot on him in the 5th or 6th or 7th. Or perhaps all the GM's are ignorant and stupid.

Obviously, I hope that Belichick's LONG SHOT pays off; it happens. I think of all choices from the 5th through the 7th as being longshots to make the roster, with 7th rounders being the least likely. I applaud Belichick's use of late picks. Cannon was in a somewhat similar position draftwise last year, but he was a 5th rounder and was known to have a medical condition.

And yes, I would think more of Dennard's chances of contributing in 2012 if Belichick thought he were worth a 6th or a 5th. He will definitely get his opportunity to fight for a roster spot. Personally, I think that Coles and Allen may be more useful on the 2012 team. If folks want to look to 2013 and 2014, that's OK. I'm fine with using a roster spot for a developmental corner.

While it is true that Dennard was drafted in the 7th round, I would be hesitant to come to the conclusion that he is only a 7th round talent.

Likewise, I would not come to the conclusion that he must be a better player had he been drafted a round or two earlier, nor would I come to the conclusion that he must be a worse player if he had gone undrafted. He's the still the same player in all three of those scenarios.

To answer the questions in your opening paragraph, Dennard was radioactive. He was too hot to handle from a PR perspective, and it happened so close to draft day teams that may have been interested didn't have time to reassess - so they just took him off their board completely.

There is a valid reason to believe that if cut Dennard would not make it to the Practice Squad: timing. Just like the timing of his arrest had a greater impact on when he was drafted had the incident happened six or twelve months later, timing also comes into play in regards to the likelihood of clearing waivers.

When TC cuts are made Dennard will at that point (presumably) have had four and a half months of a clean slate on his resume. More importantly his headlines will be four and a half months in the rear view mirror. There would be no comparison between the public backlash of drafting a player who was arrested days before the draft, and claiming a player on waivers who was arrested months ago.

Dennard was rated by some to be as high as a 2nd round talent. The fact that he wasn't drafted until the 7th round does not change that level of talent. The passage of time will make him a much lower public relations risk, and that will make it much more acceptable for other teams to sign him.

The biggest reason why Dennard might possibly clear waivers if he were to be cut would be because other teams saw how bad the Pats secondary was last year, and figure there must be something really wrong with him if he were not to be able to claim a roster spot on this squad. It's not as simple as saying he's not very good and nobody else will be interested in him because he wasn't drafted until the 7th round.

 

[Ring 6]

His 2 interceptions, including one returned for a TD, against Buffalo probably helped as well.

I didn't say he was incapable of making plays, I said he isn't a very good corner.
That means not good compared to NFL corners, not to the fat guy in the stands.

 

[Ring 6]

A waiver claim puts a rookie on a team's active roster. To try to "sneak" the player onto the practice squad requires exposing him to waivers again. [That's why I think Nick Saban pulled a dirtbag move when he claimed Kyle Eckel off waivers and then placed him on military reserve.]

Not sure what difference that makes. If the guy isn't good enough to make our team, I don't really care if he makes someone elses.

 

[VJCPatriot]

You are joking right? Tom Brady was the 199th overall pick. Does that make 31 other GMs stupid? Or how about Marques Colston? We looked pretty stupid there didn't we? Donald Driver? Terrell Davis? The list goes on and on.

I don't know what you are ranting about, but late round draft picks can turn into impact players. I haven't even gotten into UDFAs who comprise 20% of NFL rosters right now. So 1/5th of the NFL wasn't even DRAFTED. Those that make all 32 GMs ignorant and stupid?

I think not. Not to mention that Dennard faced the very real possibility of seeing jailtime as draft day approached. That's going to drop you off a lot of team's draft boards. Does not mean that the kid does not have talent, nor does it mean he can't turn into a good player for us, as long as he keeps his nose clean. But it does explain why he fell on draft day and is a risky prospect.

And let's face it as soon a teams see the Pats drafted a player, they take a closer look. Why, because 31 other teams scout our roster and look for our cuts. It makes sense because year in and year out, the Pats are one of the deepest teams in the NFL. And our castoffs can easily at least stand a chance of improving the depth of lesser teams.

Draft position means nothing once you've made a team, all that matters is that you do something with the chance you're given and EARN a spot on the final 53.

Let's see who were better players in this draft class:

Patriots Draft Class of 2002 Succeeded in Landing David Givens, Deion Branch - New England Patriots - NESN.com

The Pats drafte Daniel Graham ahead of Ed Reed in that year. Like I said, draft position is relatively meaningless once the draft is over.

HOWEVER, if he were anywhere as good as so many here think, some team would have taken a shot on him in the 5th or 6th or 7th. Or perhaps all the GM's are ignorant and stupid.

Obviously, I hope that Belichick's LONG SHOT pays off; it happens. I think of all choices from the 5th through the 7th as being longshots to make the roster, with 7th rounders being the least likely. I applaud Belichick's use of late picks. Cannon was in a somewhat similar position draftwise last year, but he was a 5th rounder and was known to have a medical condition.

And yes, I would think more of Dennard's chances of contributing in 2012 if Belichick thought he were worth a 6th or a 5th. He will definitely get his opportunity to fight for a roster spot. Personally, I think that Coles and Allen may be more useful on the 2012 team. If folks want to look to 2013 and 2014, that's OK. I'm fine with using a roster spot for a developmental corner.

 

[patchick]

wow I hate some fans arrogance.

BB and the Pats passed on Denard many, many times as well.

If a 7th round tight end from this year's draft becomes an all-pro, were the Pats stupid for not drafting him? Not really. We already have the best tight end tandem in the league.

Welker was undrafted, so does that make all 32 GMs at that time stupid?

Teams make mistakes, or in other cased make incorrect educated guesses.

Teams have different draft priorities from one another, different current roster holes to fill, have different risk tolerances, and calculate risk/reward ratios differently.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure the OP didn't type the title as his personal belief, but as a caricature of fan consensus which he wanted to examine. Unfortunately, that didn't come through clearly enough in his post.

 

[mgteich]

Missing the point isn't unusual here. I'll repeat from my previous posts.

1) I strongly support Belichick's efforts in the late rounds. He has done extremely well.

2) Without Dennard even playing in Training Camp or one preseason game, I wouldn't put him in the category of Brady or Coleston. And yes, many GM's would indeed be stupid ig Dennard turns out to be a #3 CB for us this year. They had access to scout reports and media reports indicating that Dennard has 2nd round talent. None was willing to a chance but Belichick.

3) Dennard is this year's binky. Many of these players work out. After, we keep a few UDFA's and 6th or 7th round draft choices each year.

BOTTOM LINE
4) I'm told that Dennard should be thought of as a 2nd round talent and that he is very likely to be our #3 corner, likely being at least as good as Arrington. My suggestion is that he isn't a lock for the 53 man roster; no player drafted after the fourth round is, with the exception of STer (K. R or P's) or QB's. It is not unusual to draft a 3rd string Qb in the 5th or 6th or even 7th round.

With regard to how far he will progress before Game 1, we will see. If Dennard is anywhere close to what posters here expect, then Moore's roster spot is his. Camp is about competition. Dennard is competing with Moore, Coles, Allen and Williams for an undetermined number of roster spots.

FWIW, Dennard has a very good chance to win that 5th CB roster spot. I still think Moore has the edge at this point. However, this doesn't matter. Competition will determine his fate.

You are joking right? Tom Brady was the 199th overall pick. Does that make 31 other GMs stupid? Or how about Marques Colston? We looked pretty stupid there didn't we? Donald Driver? Terrell Davis? The list goes on and on.

I don't know what you are ranting about, but late round draft picks can turn into impact players. I haven't even gotten into UDFAs who comprise 20% of NFL rosters right now. So 1/5th of the NFL wasn't even DRAFTED. Those that make all 32 GMs ignorant and stupid?

I think not. Not to mention that Dennard faced the very real possibility of seeing jailtime as draft day approached. That's going to drop you off a lot of team's draft boards. Does not mean that the kid does not have talent, nor does it mean he can't turn into a good player for us, as long as he keeps his nose clean. But it does explain why he fell on draft day and is a risky prospect.

And let's face it as soon a teams see the Pats drafted a player, they take a closer look. Why, because 31 other teams scout our roster and look for our cuts. It makes sense because year in and year out, the Pats are one of the deepest teams in the NFL. And our castoffs can easily at least stand a chance of improving the depth of lesser teams.

Draft position means nothing once you've made a team, all that matters is that you do something with the chance you're given and EARN a spot on the final 53.

Let's see who were better players in this draft class:

Patriots Draft Class of 2002 Succeeded in Landing David Givens, Deion Branch - New England Patriots - NESN.com

The Pats drafte Daniel Graham ahead of Ed Reed in that year. Like I said, draft position is relatively meaningless once the draft is over.

 

[Rob0729]

Dennard IS an interesting and perplexing prospect. Are we getting a top one of the best DB prospects to come out of the Big Ten/Big 12, or are we getting a short, bottom heavy prospect w ith marginal speed and quickness who crapped out at the combine and Senior Bowl.

In the end, Robo got it right. Dennard went from a top 50 pick, to the middle rounds after a closer inspection of his talent, to a legit end of the draft player after his encounter with the law.

He's just another example of the difference between what the professional and amateur draftniks think and what the teams who are paying millions each year to scout these players think. Its why a guy like who was highly thought of by the draftniks like Iloki can slide to the 5th round, and a guy like Bruce Irvin can rise to the mid first round

I suspect that in the end the talent gap between 50 and 250 is smaller than we think. So much depends on his luck at winding up with a team that fits his skill set, and his ability to grow as player. The guy who gets picked low and gets better each year is going to outperform and outlast the "better" player who just never gets better.

I think the best player that exemplifies that is Brandon Merriweather. Based on his raw talent he was picked at the right spot, and he rose to the level of that talent over his first 3 years and did a credible job, because of that talent. BUT he never grew beyond it as a professional. His head never matched his athletic talent and so he kept making the same mistakes over and over. Now 2 teams later he's getting a 3rd shot, but if he doesn't radically change his head, the results will be the same....a few great highlight plays packed amid plays that get coaches fired.

A couple of things:

1.) Denard didn't crap out at the Senior Bowl. He was uneven in practice. People focus on the first few days where he struggled, but I read the day before he was injured he actually had a really good practice. He never actually played in the Senior Bowl because of a hip flexor and some how the general perception was that he actually played in the game and sucked. Also, there is a good possibility that injury affected his Combine performance.

2.) I sometimes wonder if the experts and teams actually know what they are doing. I respect Mike Mayock more than most experts in large part that he doesn't play the game of posting weekly a new Big Board and Mock Draft. He posts only one version of them and he doesn't change it. I always wonder about any expert who in the months of March and early April constantly change their mock drafts and Big Boards. What could really happen during that time to change your mind about a player?

I also think teams spend so much time preparing for the draft that they out think themselves and/or get too smart for their own good. In certain cases, they are blind to certain players more than the fans. Belichick isn't immune to it. I mean he reached to draft Bethel Johnson because he fell in love with his speed and ignored the fact that he was not a good WR. In college, Johnson was a poor route runner with inconsistent hands and came from a very simple offense. In hindsight, even on paper he was a poor choice for the Pats, but Belichick loved his speed at the Combines. Teams do that all the time and fall in and out of love with players based on very limited sample size like Dennard did off a couple of practices and a bad Combine.

 

[Joker]

BB is NOT some omnipotent football demi-god...look at how he was bamboozled by the Jets into drafting Mayo after Tannenbaum snookered him with that "ELITE!!!!!" trade to the sixth spot to "steal!!!!!!!" Gholston right out from under us...ask any Rat fan...ask Ray Ray 19...or type Ray Ray 19 Gholston Steal in the JI search function...there's about a thousand laughing mocking point by point hundred word essays about this specific subject...absolutely required reading for any Pats fan that thinks Bill Belicheck has any skill whatsoever at the draft...I'll tell you, it has sure changed MY perspective...no wonder the Jets 53 man roster is, player by player, superior to every player on the Patriots roster.

 

[patfanken]

Dennard was rated by some to be as high as a 2nd round talent. The fact that he wasn't drafted until the 7th round does not change that level of talent. The passage of time will make him a much lower public relations risk, and that will make it much more acceptable for other teams to sign him.

Rated by whom? That's the question. There were several players that were "rated" more highly by the Draftnik community, that were obviously rated much lower by the teams who actually pick in the draft. George Iloki is just one that comes to mind, just as there others who were "rated" much lower who more valued by NFL organizations. Bruce Irvin and our own Tavon Wilson. So when we casually state that Dennard was a 2nd round talent as if it was a undisputed fact, we just might be missing the mark.

The reality is that while Dennard's incident definitely knocked him down team's boards, we have no idea how far....if at all.

The bottom line here is that none of this matters. He's one of the 90 players currently on the roster and whether he makes the final 53 will be determined by how well he plays in TC, NOT by his predraft ratings at Walter's

 

[JJDChE]

What I've read into the situation is that Dennard was a 2-3 rounder (yeah, I know "scouts" said he was a potential first, but they say that about 150 guys every year and AFAIK there are only 32 1st round picks). Scouts saw some things they didn't like at the Senior Bowl, which probably dropped him in the 4-5 range. The cop-punching incident did the rest.

I view him as a 4-5 round prospect, accordingly, I don't have very high expectations for him. Let's face it, if he had 1-2 round talent, there are plenty of teams who routinely overlook personality/discipline problems that would've selected him way before the 7th. 1st round talent doesn't go undrafted regardless of off the field concerns.

 

[Trocadile]

Basically, the OP is saying all he knows (or apparantly cares) about the rookies is where they were drafted and that's what determines how likely they are to contribute. I remember him dismissing Aaron Hernandez' chance to be a major contributor based on the same reasoning. Some of us, however, form opinions independent of draft position, based on actually watching the players play. I like Dennard based on what I saw of him in college not based on reports of "draftniks" or a sentence somebody who covered the minicamp wrote. I've never understood why some people get passionate about players they've only read about.

He's no sure thing, especially if he's not allowed to play as aggressively as he did in college. Given his body type, his game may not translate to the NFL or to the Patriots' system. But the games I saw him, he wasn't just good, he was very good, which makes me curious to see him this summer, and, at least for now, grateful that the Patriots drafted him (regardless of which round it was).

 

[Avenger]

There are teams that draft players even with serious character concerns, but Dennard's incident was so close to the draft, and there were questions about whether he would see felony jail time.

 

[Ivan]

So, is this thread title a joke or what? Belichick and the Patriots front office have made their fair share of stupid decisions. Ones that probably cost this team another ring at least.

Yep, Belichick is a real liability, you nailed it. It will be great when the Belichick era is over so they can win again.

 

[BlueThunder]

Pats are in a position where they can take a flyer on a late round draft pick.

If his injury in the Senior/Bowl practice and combine were related to his performance, and who can say they were not, then the only thing to be concerned about is the felomy assault charge. If it was some off duty Barney Fife he nailed because there was no uniform, or the officer didn't provide credentials and tried to break up the brawl (getting nailed in the process), maybe the charges get thrown out or reduced.

Kendrick Ellis ended up with 45 days split time so he wouldn't miss football. He almost killed a kid half his size.

Let the courts decide and in the meantime,the Patriots may have gotten a decent CB cheap.

 

[rookBoston]

Any GM has to figure the kid is a moron for punching a cop a few weeks before the draft. If convicted, IIRC, he could get 5 years in prison. If things go badly, the team that drafted him will have pretty much nothing to show for the investment. Most reasonable people would take him off their draft board for that boneheaded.

BB had the benefit of meeting the kid personally and forming his own opinion of the kid's attitude, ability and the legal risk set on top of that. Still a big risk; bigger than drafting a guy with cancer.

I think Dennard has good potential and will compete. I hope he is acquitted and settles into a nice steady career with the Pats.

Final thought, I really am starting to think the Dennard-love and the Wilson-hate is getting ridiculous. This is manic behavior people. Yes, I understand this is a down season for football fans, but try to keep it together. Wilson will be better than his critics think and will legitimately compete for quality playing time. And Dennard is no sure thing.

And I assume the "Bobby Carpenter is a complete bust, waste of time, training camp fodder" opinions have died down a bit since the Globe and Herald started running features on him. Helps to have BB talking openly to the media about his positional versatility. A month ago I thought Carpenter and Wilson would have been stoned to death (by a mob of pats fans) if they'd walked through Quincy Market in uniform. Wilson still may not be safe.

 

[mgteich]

Unless a team had very, very few draft choices, it was in a position to take a flyer with a 6th or 7th round draft choice. It says a lot when Oakland, Cinci and Baltimore doesn't want someone because of his character issues.

I'm very glad that we have Dennard. He is well worth a 7th round draft choice. The EXPECTATION of a 7th rounder is that he is at best a competitor for the Practice Squad.
That we have a contender for a roster spot at the cost of a 7th round pick is awesome. I have absolutely no need to expect Dennard to compete for the #3 CB position this year to think that we made a fine pick.

Pats are in a position where they can take a flyer on a late round draft pick.

 

[moosekill]

I'm sorry, but this is one of the strangest posts I have ever read on this board. I guess you are trying to rip the posters here who think Dennard will be good by posting some of their quotes, rather than outright saying, I think some of you have higher expectations for him than I do. I guess it makes you look good if he is cut after training camp and bad if he ends up being a starter. Either way, why bother with the post? Seems sort of below what I usually expect from you.

 

[goheels22002]

BB is NOT some omnipotent football demi-god...

Right you are. He is God. He is all knowing and all powerful. He teaches us life lessons through strange and wonderful ways - Josh McDaniels is the Prodigal Son, the NFL Draft is the 40 days and nights in the desert, Spygate is the Fall from Grace, Eric Rat Snitch Mangini is the betrayer Judas, and guys like Brady, Gronkowski, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss etc. are water into wine miracles that prove his omnipotence.

Dennard may be Belichick's next act of mercy and deliverance. Or he may go to jail and get cut.