Are Patriots achievements unprecedented in major sports?

[meatface]

a lot of people have compared this dynasty to the Yankees recent dynasty. they do seem to fit

 

[shmessy]

a lot of people have compared this dynasty to the Yankees recent dynasty. they do seem to fit

What Yankees "recent dynasty"?

They've only won one this century.

 

[OhExaulted1]

I really hate to be the one to rain on this parade because I'm a Celtics fan, but IMO when we say things like this while ignoring some rather important differences it just comes off as homerism. How do you respond when someone says Otto Graham is the greatest QB of all time winning 7 Championships in 10 years when the league had 8 teams? Or bring up the dozen or so CHI championships back in the 30's and 40's. Or say they'd like to see Brady be a QB and a LBer like Snuffy McOldf*** did in 1922.

Nobody takes those arguments seriously from CHI fans and others (for the most part), but then we turn around and sell the same thing because we're Celtic fans.

The NBA had 8 teams when Russell started playing, the NBA was barely more than an intramural league trying to survive and not go bankrupt. Not the sort of league drawing international talent that kids work their whole life to get to. Just based on odds from number of teams it's harder to win 4 today then 8 when Russell played.

Russell was a great no doubt, but trying to compare his championships to the modern day just doesn't fly. Saying he played and coached in his era just makes people dismiss his era.

First of all, the Bears only won 7 championshps between 1921-46 and I was more of a fan of the Providence Steam Rollers back in those days . I don't remember Snuffy McOld**** but the Rollahs had Twiggy O'Shifty and he could run like the ****ens.

Seriously though, Otto Graham is a name that should always come up if you're going to even attempt rating the greatest QB's of all-time. I'm justt happy to be a fan and witnessing one of the greats of our modern day. I think old Otto would just tell me to enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[OhExaulted1]

And also, why doesn't anyone ever mention the Rams Dynasty (of 1999)?

 

[OhExaulted1]

What Yankees "recent dynasty"?

They've only won one this century.

You mean these guys, right?
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/naa/

Or are you talking about this team?
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/byk/

 

[1960Pats]

Bill Russell addressing the Celtics before the 1969 7th game in LA - It's going to be fun to see them get all those balloons out of here one at a time.

 

[shmessy]

Bill Russell addressing the Celtics before the 1969 7th game in LA - It's going to be fun to see them get all those balloons out of here one at a time.

Bobsyouruncle should watch this video.

1969 alone (forget the other 10 NBA titles, the 2 NCAA's and the Olympic Gold) is the greatest example of a human being WILLING a Championship.

 

[1960Pats]

I really hate to be the one to rain on this parade because I'm a Celtics fan, but IMO when we say things like this while ignoring some rather important differences it just comes off as homerism. How do you respond when someone says Otto Graham is the greatest QB of all time winning 7 Championships in 10 years when the league had 8 teams? Or bring up the dozen or so CHI championships back in the 30's and 40's. Or say they'd like to see Brady be a QB and a LBer like Snuffy McOldf*** did in 1922.

Nobody takes those arguments seriously from CHI fans and others (for the most part), but then we turn around and sell the same thing because we're Celtic fans.

The NBA had 8 teams when Russell started playing, the NBA was barely more than an intramural league trying to survive and not go bankrupt. Not the sort of league drawing international talent that kids work their whole life to get to. Just based on odds from number of teams it's harder to win 4 today then 8 when Russell played.

Russell was a great no doubt, but trying to compare his championships to the modern day just doesn't fly. Saying he played and coached in his era just makes people dismiss his era.

When Russell and the Celtics won the last of their 9 out of 11 NBA titles there were 14 teams in the NBA.

I feel blessed to have been able to get a ride as a kid to a train that took me to a place where Bill Russell played basketball, all for under $5. Obviously, you weren't so lucky.

I have a hard time arguing with someone who says that Otto Graham achieved more than Tom Brady, but there is no other athlete that can even sniff the record of winning of Bill Russell. Not even Otto.

 

[1960Pats]

Bobsyouruncle should watch this video.

1969 alone (forget the other 10 NBA titles, the 2 NCAA's and the Olympic Gold) is the greatest example of a human being WILLING a Championship.

It amazes me that a Celtics fan of any age would try to dismiss the accomplishments of Bill Russell.

There's a thread around here somewhere that provided a great Russell interview from back in the day. I'll have to look around for it some time.

I'm sorry if it bothers anyone, but Russell's Celtics' achievements top them all, in any sport and in any era, by a country mile. I dismiss everyone else.

 

[MitchKumstein]

Another similarity between Brady and Bird is that they were the hardest working players on their teams. Just like Brady showed up at the Gillette 7 hours before kickoff of the AFC Championship game, Bird was always the first Celtic player to arrive before their games. Bird would take hundreds of practice shots on the court of the empty Garden before every game, long before any other player showed up.

What Bird and Brady lacked physically they more then made up with their preparation, desire, and love of the game

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

"Saying he played and coached in his era just makes people dismiss his era".

So how many other player/coaches won NBA titles "in his era". Oh yeah, none.

How many BLACK player/coaches won NBA titles "in his era"? Oh yeah, none.

How many black player/coaches were there in ANY major American sport "in his era"? Oh yeah, none.

He also won back to back NCAAs and an Olympic Gold.

11 NBA Titles, 2 NCAA titles, 1 Olympic Gold.

First black head coach in the NBA.

First black head coach in ANY major American sport. (How many social barriers has Brady broken?)

(Do you have ANY understanding of what that meant - - Do you know what he had to battle against - - even to live in the Massachusetts suburbs "in his era"??)

And he won 9 in Wilt's face (or chest, because he was 4 inches shorter).

Bill Russell helped his team beat Chamberlain's teams because Russell studied geometry and angles and put that study into practice on the court. No one before or since played defensive angles and positioning better than Bill Russell. No one studied angles of rebounding better than Bill Russell. He outthought opponents and was the most cerebral player in NBA history.

He is the most prolific Champion in American modern major sports history. And he did it by using his mind.

You are arguing against a BIBLICAL figure.

He's obviously more biblical to you, because this sounds like a rant about blasphemy.

1. I couldn't care less if he was the first black coach in any major American sport (and he wasn't) when discussing how great a player he was.

2. I don't know why you keep bringing up Chamberlain.

3. I didn't say he wasn't great, or he wasn't the greatest, I put his championship record in proper context.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

It amazes me that a Celtics fan of any age would try to dismiss the accomplishments of Bill Russell.

There's a thread around here somewhere that provided a great Russell interview from back in the day. I'll have to look around for it some time.

I'm sorry if it bothers anyone, but Russell's Celtics' achievements top them all, in any sport and in any era, by a country mile. I dismiss everyone else.

I didn't dismiss Russell's accomplishments, please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Wait, what? Is this where we start talking about how all sports other than football are stupid and suck?

Ahhh like no

I like other sports and people here can also. However, in terms of performance, football is a much more complex issue than other sports. Baseball follows as second.

In medicine I like family practice doctors and cardiologists............and can realize there is a difference between lancing a boil and a heart transplant.

 

[shmessy]

1. I couldn't care less if he was the first black coach in any major American sport (and he wasn't) when discussing how great a player he was.

LOL. You're going to use Fritz Pollard???? Player/coach of the "Akron Pros"in 1921 and the "Hammond Pros" in 1925 of the early version of the NFL as your basis as "any MAJOR American sport"?

And then you dismiss the argument about Russell because when his career STARTED, the NBA was an "intramural league"????

Bill Russell predated Frank Robinson by 8 years. He predated Art Shell by 23 years. He predated anyone in the NHL by forever.

If you want to go all Florio and say "Fritz Pollard, 1921 Akron Pros", then go right ahead. But then turning around and saying that Russell played in what was akin to an intramural league is being a wee bit inconsistent.

It is what it is.

 

[shmessy]

I didn't dismiss Russell's accomplishments, please don't put words in my mouth.

Post #28:

I really hate to be the one to rain on this parade because I'm a Celtics fan, but IMO when we say things like this while ignoring some rather important differences it just comes off as homerism. How do you respond when someone says Otto Graham is the greatest QB of all time winning 7 Championships in 10 years when the league had 8 teams? Or bring up the dozen or so CHI championships back in the 30's and 40's. Or say they'd like to see Brady be a QB and a LBer Snuffy McOldf*** did in 19like 22.

Nobody takes those arguments seriously from CHI fans and others (for the most part), but then we turn around and sell the same thing because we're Celtic fans.

The NBA had 8 teams when Russell started playing, NBA was barely more than an intramural league trying to survive and not go bankrupt. the Not the sort of league drawing international talent that kids work their whole life to get to. Just based on odds from number of teams it's harder to win 4 today then 8 when Russell played.

Russell was a great no doubt, but trying to compare his championships to the modern day just doesn't fly. Saying he played and coached in his era just makes people dismiss his era

 

[The Gr8est]

a lot of people have compared this dynasty to the Yankees recent dynasty. they do seem to fit

I have always hated any comparisons between the Pats and Yankees dynasties.

The Pats have dominated in a league with a salary cap. They lose players and coaches at a rate higher than the average; certainly true for coaches, and the Pats have to train their replacements who often get poached by losing franchises for no compensation at all.

The Yankees enjoyed a financial advantage in a league without a salary cap and basically bought their championshops.

The Yankees accomplishments aren't even close to the Pats' accomplishments.

 

[Fixit]

Basketball is as complex as football is, they're just completely different. In football, every player's job is mapped out for him on every play. In basketball, every coach and player has to react and adjust constantly with every pass or dribble. Each player also has to play offense and defense. But we can agree to disagree on that.

However, using the perceived complexities of football to demean Russell's accomplishments is just silly.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Post #28:

I really hate to be the one to rain on this parade because I'm a Celtics fan, but IMO when we say things like this while ignoring some rather important differences it just comes off as homerism. How do you respond when someone says Otto Graham is the greatest QB of all time winning 7 Championships in 10 years when the league had 8 teams? Or bring up the dozen or so CHI championships back in the 30's and 40's. Or say they'd like to see Brady be a QB and a LBer like Snuffy McOldf*** did in 1922.

Nobody takes those arguments seriously from CHI fans and others (for the most part), but then we turn around and sell the same thing because we're Celtic fans.

The NBA had 8 teams when Russell started playing, the NBA was barely more than an intramural league trying to survive and not go bankrupt. Not the sort of league drawing international talent that kids work their whole life to get to. Just based on odds from number of teams it's harder to win 4 today then 8 when Russell played.

Russell was a great no doubt, but trying to compare his championships to the modern day just doesn't fly. Saying he played and coached in his era just makes people dismiss his era.

Yes Shmessy, I was responding to you comparing Brady's 4, to Russell's 11. As if you can just subtract the difference. Would Brady or anyone else winning 11 championships today in a league with over 30 teams and talent from around the world be considered equal to, or greater than Russell's accomplishment? You know the answer. So obviously those championships need context.

 

[shmessy]

Yes Shmessy, I was responding to you comparing Brady's 4, to Russell's 11. As if you can just subtract the difference. Would Brady or anyone else winning 11 championships today in a league with over 30 teams and talent from around the world be considered equal to, or greater than Russell's accomplishment? You know the answer. So obviously those championships need context.

"So obviously those championships need context."

You want "context"?

Yes, Brady didn't win 11.

And he didn't head coach any of them.

Brady didn't win 2 straight NCAA championships.

Brady didn't win an Olympic Gold medal.

Brady was never denied a hotel room when on the road with his team.

Brady was never denied service at a restaurant.

And no one in Massachusetts has petitioned to keep Brady and his family out of their neighborhood and his children out of their schools.

Context.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Basketball is as complex as football is, they're just completely different. In football, every player's job is mapped out for him on every play. In basketball, every coach and player has to react and adjust constantly with every pass or dribble. Each player also has to play offense and defense. But we can agree to disagree on that.

However, using the perceived complexities of football to demean Russell's accomplishments is just silly.

Yeah and the point guard can just dribble down the floor and throw up a "three".

Anyone that come to patsfans.com and claim basketball is as complex as football is just simply, painfully clueless.

Realizing this does not belittle Bill Russell's accomplishments....what it does note is the accomplishments need to be viewed in a context.