Are Patriots achievements unprecedented in major sports?

[shmessy]

Yeah and the point guard can just dribble down the floor and throw up a "three".

Anyone that come to patsfans.com and claim basketball is as complex as football is just simply, painfully clueless.

Realizing this does not belittle Bill Russell's accomplishments....what it does note is the accomplishments need to be viewed in a context.

Russell played both Defense AND Offense.

He was 1 of 5 players on the court.

Brady is the greatest QB of all time. And the QB is the most important component of a football team.

But Russell controlled 100% of ballgames. Brady can only control about 40% (don't forget ST's)

Add in the number of championships, the 3 different levels of championships and and the environment of the 1950's and 1960's and I can't imagine anyone else but 6'9" center Bill Russell.

But to many, what happens yesterday is what is freshest in the mind.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Russell played both Defense AND Offense.

He was 1 of 5 players on the court.

Brady is the greatest QB of all time. And the QB is the most important component of a football team.

But Russell controlled 100% of ballgames. Brady can only control about 40% (don't forget ST's)

Add in the number of championships, the 3 different levels of championships and and the environment of the 1950's and 1960's and I can't imagine anyone else but 6'9" center Bill Russell.

But to many, what happens yesterday is what is freshest in the mind.

At this point your just naming a bunch of irrelevant **** and constructing strawmen. Do you have an argument as to why we should believe Championships in a 8-12 team league are as hard or harder than Championships on a 32 team league or not?

 

[RayClay]

Bobsyouruncle should watch this video.

1969 alone (forget the other 10 NBA titles, the 2 NCAA's and the Olympic Gold) is the greatest example of a human being WILLING a Championship.

Come on, the Lakers only had three first ballot hall of Famers that year.

 

[AzPatsFan]

And I don't mean just all the record.

I mean having the team led by a star who by wins purely by mental skills, not physical ones.

Even in the 2000 combine, Brady was the slowest QB ever measured. Who knows what it would be now. Yet he just beat a QB who probably runs about 30% faster than he does. And even then, his arm was not notably strong, and so on. He wins essentially by out-thinking his opponents. He knows where they'll be before they do and who to throw to.

The whole Patriots team would rarely win a track-and-field competition against its opponents, but it nearly always wins on the field. They're not bigger or faster for the most part, but - presumably thanks to Belichick - they just play much smarter.

Every other major sport, the team's top star has amazing physical skills. But if you go back in history, has any team had anything like this kind of success just from pure understanding of strategy?

Bill Russel was not the biggest or tallest Center. He was not a great scorer or shooter.

All he did is win the championship in college, the Olympics and in 11 out of 13 years in the NBA.. And then won as a Coach too.

Otto Graham has the all time records for football championships and championship appearances even if George Hals selfishly had tried to denigrate his and Coach Paul Brown's accomplishments by eliminating the AAFC records from pro football consideration.

Even though the Browns entered the NFL and beat the reigning NFL Champs in their first NFL game, on the way to their first NFL and 5th straight Championship.

BB and Brady have still a ways to go.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Russell played both Defense AND Offense.

He was 1 of 5 players on the court.

Brady is the greatest QB of all time. And the QB is the most important component of a football team.

But Russell controlled 100% of ballgames. Brady can only control about 40% (don't forget ST's)

Add in the number of championships, the 3 different levels of championships and and the environment of the 1950's and 1960's and I can't imagine anyone else but 6'9" center Bill Russell.

But to many, what happens yesterday is what is freshest in the mind.

Who knew shmessy would post point by point why basketball and football can't be viewed in the same context.

What part of five guys on offense/defense could possibly make anyone think that compares to having 22 guys on offense and defense? Actually, at least hockey has special teams.

Besides....how exactly did Bill Russell control "100%" of games exactly?

Did he score all the points? grab every rebound? cause every turn over?

It's like on BSPN when they have those idiot discussions if BB or Phil Jackson is the greatest coach.......sorry but an NBA head coach might rank in the area of an NFL offensive line coach.

Obviously there are many basketball fans here and everyone supports your love of the game.....let's just not go overboard here.

Frankly, the achievements of the Jack Nicklaus franchise in golf is even more impressive than the exploits of the Celtics franchise........makes perfect sense with these extrapolations.

 

[meatface]

I have always hated any comparisons between the Pats and Yankees dynasties.

The Pats have dominated in a league with a salary cap. They lose players and coaches at a rate higher than the average; certainly true for coaches, and the Pats have to train their replacements who often get poached by losing franchises for no compensation at all.

The Yankees enjoyed a financial advantage in a league without a salary cap and basically bought their championshops.

The Yankees accomplishments aren't even close to the Pats' accomplishments.

im not comparing the sports in any way, all I was saying was that the pats won 3 of 4 and then this most recent one; The Yankees won 3 in a row from 98-2000 and then won in 2009. Thats all, we can debate the Yankees validity as champions if you want.

 

[1960Pats]

I didn't dismiss Russell's accomplishments, please don't put words in my mouth.

In your own words you dismissed the whole era. Now you're back-peddling.

I have to admit that Belichick and Brady have been a very special team with many great achievements, but they aren't even in the same ballpark as Red and Russell. NOBODY is. The records speak for themselves.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

In your own words you dismissed the whole era. Now you're back-peddling.

I have to admit that Belichick and Brady have been a very special team with many great achievements, but they aren't even in the same ballpark as Red and Russell. NOBODY is. The records speak for themselves.

Quote where I dismissed Russell's era.

 

[Ken Canin]

I am confident nobody here will agree with me on this one, but I felt Trent Dilfer's performance for the Ravens in 2000 had some points of similarity: a long string of wins, perfect and turnover-free playoffs, extremely resilient and very smart player (Dilfer is unrated, even by Ravens fans, but that's an argument I know I won't win). Obviously as just one season, Dilfer doesn't compare to Brady's run.

After the Super Bowl win, Billick replaced Dilfer in favor of a stereotypical dim-witted QB who looked more like what Billick thought a QB should look like. I bet if Billick (or your typical NFL head coach) had coached Brady, Brady would never even have gotten a start because Brady doesn't jump high enough or run the 40 quick enough or whatever nonsensical proxies for winning ability mediocre coaches rely on.

In fact, I bet that there are other players out there as smart as Brady but who never got the chance to play. You'd think the success of Brady would make the head coaches realize they want character and genius, not just strength and speed, in the QB position.

 

[shmessy]

Quote where I dismissed Russell's era.

That's the 2nd time you've asked.

And for the 2nd time here is your post #28:

I really hate to be the one to rain on this parade because I'm a Celtics fan, but IMO when we say things like this while ignoring some rather important differences it just comes off as homerism. How do you respond when someone says Otto Graham is the greatest QB of all time winning 7 Championships in 10 years when the league had 8 teams? Or bring up the dozen or so CHI championships back in the 30's and 40's. Or say they'd like to see Brady be a QB and a LBer like Snuffy McOldf*** did in 1922.
Nobody takes those arguments seriously from CHI fans and others (for the most part), but then we turn around and sell the same thing because we're Celtic fans.
The NBA had 8 teams when Russell started playing, the NBA was barely more than an intramural league trying to survive and not go bankrupt. Not the sort of league drawing international talent that kids work their whole life to get to. Just based on odds from number of teams it's harder to win 4 today then 8 when Russell played.
Russell was a great no doubt, but trying to compare his championships to the modern day just doesn't fly. Saying he played and coached in his era just makes people dismiss his era.

 

[wolverinejoe80]

Please.

Contemporaneously: 6'9" Bill Russell 9 NBA Championships vs. Wilt Chamberlain 7'1" 1 NBA Championship.

All you have to do is to look at this picture to understand the height differential.

Bill Russell (left) and Wilt Chamberlain square off in a 1968 gam


Also Bill Russell won 2 NCAA Championships with USF and a Gold medal with the USA Basketball team.

He also won 2 of his total 11 NBA Championships as a player/ COACH (let's see Brady win 2 Lombardis as a Head Coach).

The last one was in 1969, where he led a 4th place team that was old, decrepit and very low on talent to win it all in a 7th game in Los Angeles against what is still considered to be one of he most talent laden teams in NBA history.

Bill Russell was BIBLICAL.


End of story. We all love TFB, but please........

russell played in a league with 12 teams. it's so easy to win a championship when the team was better than anybody else.

if i have to guess, it's 10 times harder to win the SB now then winning NBA championships in a stacked team.

and your picture heavily favors wilt. i raise you with these pictures. in today's nba russell would've been listed at 6ft 11.

russell was great, but there is a reason why he is never considered the GOAT. yes, many boston fans do claim as the GOAT, the whole media has crowned MJ as the GOAT even with 5 less rings.

IMO, what brady has accomplished eclipses bill russell. imagine if brady played in a 12 league team and every one of those teams were vastly inferior. and let's say all brady has to do is beat peyton manning (wilt). wouldn't brady win every year too?

 

[1960Pats]

russell played in a league with 12 teams. it's so easy to win a championship when the team was better than anybody else.

if i have to guess, it's 10 times harder to win the SB now then winning NBA championships in a stacked team.

and your picture heavily favors wilt. i raise you with these pictures. in today's nba russell would've been listed at 6ft 11.

russell was great, but there is a reason why he is never considered the GOAT. yes, many boston fans do claim as the GOAT, the whole media has crowned MJ as the GOAT even with 5 less rings.

IMO, what brady has accomplished eclipses bill russell. imagine if brady played in a 12 league team and every one of those teams were vastly inferior. and let's say all brady has to do is beat peyton manning (wilt). wouldn't brady win every year too?

To make the playoffs, Brady/Belichick only have to have a better record than the Bills, Dolphins and Jets. That's it. And if they don't win the AFCE, they can still make it with a better record than the 12 other AFC teams that didn't win their division. That may be more difficult than getting into the NBA playoffs in the 60s, but not by much. Certainly not 10 times more difficult.

Less teams means more concentration of talent. The teams that the Celtics beat in those days were all loaded. What they didn't have was Red and Russell.

So the media has crowned MJ as the GOAT. Good for them. Are those the same mediots who proclaimed the Pats are cheaters. I'm sure that none of those "experts" saw Russell play.

 

[shmessy]

The career of Tom Brady is simply the best QB career in the history of the NFL.

The life and times of Bill Russell stand out in the history of AMERICA.

And the 1969 playoffs where the aged, 4th place Celtics, led by their player/coach center rose up and defeated the (next year) champion New York Knicks and arguably the most talented team in NBA history the 1969 LA Lakers with the 7th game on their court........

Bill Russell was a sports champion on three levels.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

And I thought it was hard comparing teams across eras... now we're going against other sports?

Okay here's one for you guys... Shelby Cobra Mustang... Corvette... or Darrell Revis? Coke... Pepsi... or Dobson? Mongol Empire under Genghis Khan, or Pats under Belichick? Time travel, lego, swordfish, or Brady?

 

[stinkypete]

We can't keep comparing football accomplishments to basketball accomplishments. It's nonsensical for 2 reasons.

-An 11 on 11 game is more chaotic than a 5 on 5 game
-The talent differential between the superstars and the JAGs is greater in the NBA than in the NFL.

The accomplishments of today's Spurs and Russel's Celtics are legendary and both teams are all time greats in an NBA context. However, no NFL team will ever win 8 consecutive Super Bowls, and no NFL team will ever win 6 in 8 years. The only thing we really can compare NFL success to is other NFL success.

 

[Steve102]

It's pretty close:

The Montreal Canadiens won 16 Stanley Cups from 1952-53 to 1978-79. That's 16. They didn't win 11 in that period. Of the 11 they didn't win, they made the finals three times.

We've covered the Bill Russell/Celtics thing already.

From 1921 to 1964, the Yankees appeared in 29 World Series. They won 20, including five in a row from 49-53 and four in a row from 36-39. Talk about building a fan based of haters, that's how you you do it: over generations.

Packers are the only ones to win 3 NFL championships in a row, twice, 1929-31 and 1965-67.

The 49ers won in five Super Bowls from 1982-95

What the Patriots are doing is very impressive, as it's done in an era of mass-media micro coverage, free agency, parity, and all the other cliches people assign this era of football. It's documented already here that if not for David Tyree and Mario Manningham, we'd be talking about six rings. The fact that they've been to six SB's on Brady/Belichick's watch is the real impressive feat. If you take into consideration the 1996 team, which had a slew of guys on the roster that would win rings later on, it could be said that the Krafts have built a tradition of winning over their entire ownership. In the last 19 years, the Patriots have been in seven super bowls (36%), winning four. It doesn't appear that they are done yet. Unprecedented, no. Pretty damn close though.

 

[shmessy]

And I thought it was hard comparing teams across eras... now we're going against other sports?

Read the thread title and the OP.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Yeah saw that Shmess, although it morphed into Brady specifically, but that's a side issue.

Carry on, all.

 

[RayClay]

russell played in a league with 12 teams. it's so easy to win a championship when the team was better than anybody else.

if i have to guess, it's 10 times harder to win the SB now then winning NBA championships in a stacked team.

and your picture heavily favors wilt. i raise you with these pictures. in today's nba russell would've been listed at 6ft 11.

russell was great, but there is a reason why he is never considered the GOAT. yes, many boston fans do claim as the GOAT, the whole media has crowned MJ as the GOAT even with 5 less rings.

IMO, what brady has accomplished eclipses bill russell. imagine if brady played in a 12 league team and every one of those teams were vastly inferior. and let's say all brady has to do is beat peyton manning (wilt). wouldn't brady win every year too?

If you think the team was considered better than everybody else those years, you obviously didn't follow them then. No shame in that, it just means you aren't old.