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[pazrul72]

Last but not least ST players.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Did you see @Ice_Ice_Brady thread ranking QBs Awhile back? Actually found it very informative and he clearly put a TON of research into it. His conclusion was basically there is the GOAT, then 2-6 were all pretty close, and 6-12 varied based on what you valued, but there were 3 clear tiers.

Great thread but we knew the conclusion going in. It's a very informative thread for sure but we knew there was a small gap after Brady. About 3-5 others in low-god tier like Manning, Montana, Young ...

IMO when it comes to Brady is his ability to rise when the margin for error is so low. If you have super mega HOF talent every where teams, the margin for error is zero, so give me the guy who makes everyone around him better more than anyone else ever has. I’ll grant you there are positions where there are very few truly great prospects like TE, but if you got the GOAT QB you can build a line and go 5 wide not needing a TE. Or have a really good running game and go play action with any of the 2-6 like Unitas or Rodger Staubach.

I guess to sum up I do feel the gap from Brady to anyone else, in the situation you’re putting him in, playing the best of the best everywhere, is as large, if not larger, as any other position. So while you are correct you can get one of 12 legit HOF QBs there just isn’t anyone in Brady’s league.

I mean everyone has bias but I think your Pats lens are on extra bright the last few days. We've never seen Manning with an elite defense behind him or Elway with a all-star squad around him. Expanding a little more Manning had Dungy who had no backbone . While Brady had a guy with the biggest brass set around. I'm not putting words in your mouth but it sounds like you're saying we team has Brady will be the best.

I think that if we have some creative posters/GM's results will be pretty unique.

What I think would be interesting to determine the best squad is to have them “play” each other. During the off season where nothing is going on anyway make a thread, team BCG versus team Pazrul for instance, and each of us write up a one or two paragraph game plan. That way when you play dime defense and I go jumbo with a massive Oline I win TOP and keep your explosive offense on the sideline. Have it as a poll for a week, and let board members vote who would win the game. Play it round robin style, with two losses meaning your team is out of the tournament. Last team standing is the best of all time.

Initially I said I wanted to write a little summery up on what we're ultimately going for. Doesn't have to sound like a coach wrote it but it would help.

 

[pazrul72]

I mean everyone has bias but I think your Pats lens are on extra bright the last few days. We've never seen Manning with an elite defense behind him or Elway with a all-star squad around him. Expanding a little more Manning had Dungy who had no backbone . While Brady had a guy with the biggest brass set around. I'm not putting words in your mouth but it sounds like you're saying we team has Brady will be the best.

good heavens no! If one of the fantasy football people built a team with Brady where he had 5 all star receivers and 5 all star corners with two bookend pass rushers cuz you know that’s the only thing that matters in todays game they would have a crap Oline and a crap D line. Have someone build D first get say LT, Reggie white, warren sapp, and someone like Robert Mathis, plus build a huge punishing o line with say an earl cambell behind it….yeah you can’t score from your ass or the bench even if you are Brady. When I said I would sprint up the Brady pick I also said build the worlds greatest offense, not passing attack. I would get Brady one weapon, one of Gronk, rice, or moss should still be there, and then build him a steel fortress offensive line. But without that Brady is still human and needs at least 2 seconds to get the ball out.

Now onto Manning, while it’s true Brady generally had better defenses, he also took less money and had less draft capital spent on offense. Manning made his bed and has to sleep in it where the entire team and philosophy relied on him being great more games then not. That said look at his 2 SB victories. 2006 post season with the exception of the 2nd half of the AFCCG he was hot garbage. Bob sanders came back and balled out for 3 games leading to defensive victories. 2015 Broncos are arguably in the top 5 best defenses of all time. Even those Colt defenses put up great numbers as long as they were playing from ahead. Freeny and Mathis were a terror on 3rd and longs. So the myth that Manning never had great defenses is bull, he just **** the bed when it mattered more than anyone since Marino.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Now onto Manning, while it’s true Brady generally had better defenses, he also took less money and had less draft capital spent on offense.

Brady didnt take less. Bill just wasnt going to pay him what he worth. He would have been playing for someone else a long time ago if he wanted to maximize his value. Brady didnt less bc it was going other places on the team. Bill has a cap on each position, even for Tom.

Manning made his bed and has to sleep in it where the entire team and philosophy relied on him being great more games then not.

Manning played for a much more unstable franchise esp towards the later part of his career in Indy. And was asked to do more than Brady and all he did was become a unanimous top 5 QB. Manning didnt have a Kraft, Bill & co to match his presence and provide any push back. Brady was eased into a much better situation while Manning took over for a joke franchise that had the #1 pick. Worse running game throughout their careers and defense early on. NEP had multiple elite, borderline elite defenses that made life a lot easier on Tom. Again esp early on.

That said look at his 2 SB victories. 2006 post season with the exception of the 2nd half of the AFCCG he was hot garbage. Bob sanders came back and balled out for 3 games leading to defensive victories. 2015 Broncos are arguably in the top 5 best defenses of all time. Even those Colt defenses put up great numbers as long as they were playing from ahead. Freeny and Mathis were a terror on 3rd and longs. So the myth that Manning never had great defenses is bull, he just **** the bed when it mattered more than anyone since Marino.

Yea Manning was a shell of himself later in his career. I kind of forgot that Denver team. Save those years, he never played with anything close to the defenses Tom had while he was in Indy. Again especially early on. That's not up for debate. Later on it gets closer but the first half of their battles, Brady had an advantage of the better running game, defense and coaching.

There's definitely an advantage to having Tom but I think his value is a little lower for an exercise like this. All still while being QB1 for this. I think there's a good case to go somewhere else early on where the gap is or gets larger pretty quick.

I'm just saying in this alternative reality - so to speak. Things could play out a lot differently if we're being objective but we'll have to see what the teams actually look like put together.

Also another reason I like the idea of being able to draft offense or defense both days.
Still need a good 5 more posters.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

@everlong

@Boomer B

You guys in?

@captain stone ?

We need 5 more posters. In a football forum lol. It's June, we have a month before **** starts getting interesting and I want to build a squad.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

@Ice_Ice_Brady this ain't up your alley?

 

[Boomer B]

In. Best draft time for me is Saturday mornings or weekday evenings.

 

[everlong]

@everlong

@Boomer B

You guys in?

@captain stone ?

We need 5 more posters. In a football forum lol. It's June, we have a month before **** starts getting interesting and I want to build a squad.

Sorry mate. Been buried at work. I'm in but my involvement will be in bursts.

 

[everlong]

Here's some of my thoughts on these topics.

Manning - On the one hand he won 2 SBs, beat Brady 3 times in the playoffs and if not for the Patriots might have had 4 rings himself. On the other the three times he beat Brady his teams were overwhelmingly the better team. The 06 team almost pulled off beating them in their building in spite of no Rodney, officiating which was tilted in their direction substancially, Caldwell was our best receiver and the defense had the flu. The 13 squad simply didn't have the defense. The 15 squad if not for the injuries could have been the best team in the second part of the dynasty but they were a mess and if not for Ghost missing an XP they still might have won.

He also managed to lose to Phillip Rivers (twice) and Rothleisberger where the Colts had by far the superior team and he majorly contributed to those losses. Both Brady and Manning had suspect loses to Flaco and Sanchez. Those teams just caught fire at the right time.

I'm torn on Manning or Montana at #2. On the one hand Montana was far more clutch in the biggest of spots. On the other his teams were pre-salary and loaded everywhere. Who did he beat in a SB run where you say that guy was an all timer? He was going up against Simms, Theisman, McMahon, Boomer and yes on the last two Elway and Marino. I give Elway a lot of credit for getting those teams to the SB. They weren't great supporting casts until the 90s. Marino for all his prowess had some choke in him like Manning.

Manning's defenses were overall underrate.


Team Building - I find this part the most facinating aspect of doing this exercise. I have a clear method of how I want to build my team. I don't want to tip my hand but I'd love everyone to share their methodology after. I also have some sleeper picks who I feel are historically underrated and I'd put them above some higher profile guys who will be taken above them.

Eras - One of the things I think we have to do for this exercise is ignore eras and players height/weight/speed, etc. People are going to argue it in both directions. What would have Roger Staubach done in an era where you can't touch the QB? On the flipside could he handle a modern offense from a mental perspective? Would Brady or Manning survive with the rules of the 60s/70s? Jack Lambert would never have been able to play at that weight in today's game, could he? Could Ronnie Lott play with today's rules? Would Wes Welker survive in a different era? Jim Brown played with midgets, what would he do in today's game.

I assume with today's nutrition and *cough* supplements players of other eras would train differently and be bigger, stronger and faster. Conversely a football player is a football player and while they might have had a shorter career in a different era they would still be able to ball.

Recency/Nostalgia Bias - I'll be interested to see how much of that goes on. I think younger and older drafters will be prone to this.

I'll add more later.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Here's some of my thoughts on these topics.

Manning - On the one hand he won 2 SBs, beat Brady 3 times in the playoffs and if not for the Patriots might have had 4 rings himself. On the other the three times he beat Brady his teams were overwhelmingly the better team. The 06 team almost pulled off beating them in their building in spite of no Rodney, officiating which was tilted in their direction substancially, Caldwell was our best receiver and the defense had the flu. The 13 squad simply didn't have the defense. The 15 squad if not for the injuries could have been the best team in the second part of the dynasty but they were a mess and if not for Ghost missing an XP they still might have won.

He also managed to lose to Phillip Rivers (twice) and Rothleisberger where the Colts had by far the superior team and he majorly contributed to those losses. Both Brady and Manning had suspect loses to Flaco and Sanchez. Those teams just caught fire at the right time.

I'm torn on Manning or Montana at #2. On the one hand Montana was far more clutch in the biggest of spots. On the other his teams were pre-salary and loaded everywhere. Who did he beat in a SB run where you say that guy was an all timer? He was going up against Simms, Theisman, McMahon, Boomer and yes on the last two Elway and Marino. I give Elway a lot of credit for getting those teams to the SB. They weren't great supporting casts until the 90s. Marino for all his prowess had some choke in him like Manning.

Manning's defenses were overall underrate.

Manning's defenses got a little better towards the end of his career for sure (Indy and Denver) but they were trash early on in terms of scoring points. 03-06 I dont believe he had one inside the top 20. And the colts never had a feared rushing attack despite having multiple outstanding RBS. He didn't have a top 15 rushing attack or total defense for the better half of his career. Now people like to actually blame Manning as if he's running everything but that was a huge part of the problem as well. He had no one like Bill to push back on him and look at the big picture. Brady could kill you with a 1000 cuts but they expected Manning to win the game every time he passed. Also he'll never be compared to Brady or Montana in terms of clutch but he wasn't the choker people make him out to be either imo.

Again a lot of this, we'll never know. It's marvel/DC, alternate reality type stuff but I think hes firmly a top 2-4 QB.

Team Building - I find this part the most facinating aspect of doing this exercise. I have a clear method of how I want to build my team. I don't want to tip my hand but I'd love everyone to share their methodology after. I also have some sleeper picks who I feel are historically underrated and I'd put them above some higher profile guys who will be taken above them.

I was using the cheatsheet @pazrul72 posted to build the top half of my board. Very useful even though i made my own rankings, it was helpful to see all those names together for each position.
I definitely have some "sleeper" picks i might not make but certainly am considering depending on the board.

I have no problem saying ill be using an adaptive strategy and see how things play out. Yea don't want to share a ton but I was looking at a particular group last night for my team.

I'm really getting into the possibilities. The extra spots are very interesting too. Special skill sets or bpa. QB2 or extra OL. I think ss is the way to go but we'll see. Like drafting a Slater or gunner to match someone's Hester.

Eras - One of the things I think we have to do for this exercise is ignore eras and players height/weight/speed, etc. People are going to argue it in both directions. What would have Roger Staubach done in an era where you can't touch the QB? On the flipside could he handle a modern offense from a mental perspective? Would Brady or Manning survive with the rules of the 60s/70s? Jack Lambert would never have been able to play at that weight in today's game, could he? Could Ronnie Lott play with today's rules? Would Wes Welker survive in a different era? Jim Brown played with midgets, what would he do in today's game.

I assume with today's nutrition and *cough* supplements players of other eras would train differently and be bigger, stronger and faster. Conversely a football player is a football player and while they might have had a shorter career in a different era they would still be able to ball.

What's funny is that while players are definitely stronger today. The game is going lighter.

Recency/Nostalgia Bias - I'll be interested to see how much of that goes on. I think younger and older drafters will be prone to this.

I'll add more later.

Definitely. I'll admit it's tough for me to pick an old head over new one but I was thinking of this last night actually. You take Roger or Starr late and load up elsewhere?

This is way I like it though. It's a fun exercise and process imo.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Tentative start date next Monday or Tuesday night? Maybe 5-7 pm? Try to get 3-5 more posters and see what happens? I'm surprised we can't get 10 posters lol.

 

[captain stone]

A few of us have talked about this for a while now. And I got the itch looking at the Pats all-time list of positions.

Need 12-15 posters to draft players for any era to fill out a roster. Let's call it 60 all together with ST.

I figure 3-4 days, 20 rounds a day. No shortage of players and we'll have notice to prep for draft. So we have a good idea of what each person wants to do. Very similar to FF. Make a cheat sheet and you'll be fine.

After we have our teams we can let other posters pick the best team(s)

I've always wanted to do it. I know a few others have too. We had a good 8-10 posters that signed up before but I forgot the names.

1) BGC
2 Pape
3 PaulR
4 Boomer
5 Everlong
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15

Sign me up!

 

[Boomer B]

Tentative start date next Monday or Tuesday night? Maybe 5-7 pm? Try to get 3-5 more posters and see what happens? I'm surprised we can't get 10 posters lol.

I’m west coast so 5pm would be 2pm for me. I can try to do it while working but if I’m busy I can’t commit.

For myself the best would be a Saturday or Sunday morning (say 10am est which is 7am pst) or if it is night time a bit later start

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I’m west coast so 5pm would be 2pm for me. I can try to do it while working but if I’m busy I can’t commit.

For myself the best would be a Saturday or Sunday morning (say 10am est which is 7am pst) or if it is night time a bit later start

@Pape
@pazrul72
@captain stone
@everlong

Where you guys at?

 

[Pape]

@Pape
@pazrul72
@captain stone
@everlong

Where you guys at?

RI ... Est ... Any time is good for me... Except the 23rd

I do not anticipate anything getting in the way of this... but, **** does happen...If for some reason I cannot make a session I will provide a list of draftees based on my team needs to bcg

 

[captain stone]

@Pape
@pazrul72
@captain stone
@everlong

Where you guys at?

Eastern time.

 

[pazrul72]

Tentative start date next Monday or Tuesday night? Maybe 5-7 pm? Try to get 3-5 more posters and see what happens? I'm surprised we can't get 10 posters lol.

I'm not surprised it's a big commitment at least a couple hours which is more then most people are willing to do for a mental exercise. I'm good with the 6 we have. I an also EST, but work 3rd shift so I have to leave by 10 if we do it on a weekday. If we could all get on a zoom call or something we could probably knock it out in one 7-10 session. Though 32 rounds times 6 posters is 192 picks. 180 mins means a little faster then 1 pick a min

 

[everlong]

@Pape
@pazrul72
@captain stone
@everlong

Where you guys at?

I can start one of those nights. How long are you thinking between rounds for somebody to make their picks?

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

---

I can start one of those nights. How long are you thinking between rounds for somebody to make their picks?

I'm thinking 5 mins between picks. I actually think the first round will go extremely quick.

Ok what about Monday at 8 est? I would do this weekend but I wouldn't be able to really commit until Friday. Most of the time we don't know about working the weekend until later in the week but I'm down to even start this weekend if I'm not working

 

[Pape]

monday at 8 is fine by me