A Wilfork/NT discussion

[Patjew]

Is Vince much better than Ted Washington was in Ted's prime? That's a sincere question from a NT-non-expert. I love Vince but I also remember how good Ted was in 2003.

 

[Water Boy]

Is Vince much better than Ted Washington was in Ted's prime? That's a sincere question from a NT-non-expert. I love Vince but I also remember how good Ted was in 2003.

My football memory sucks, but I do recall Ted Washington as a dominant NT in BB's 3-4. He never got moved off the ball. Wilfork is a better pass rusher and in pursuit, but age probably has a lot to do with it. It will be interesting to see how Wilfork's game evolves over time. Its likely he will become a more sedintary player like Washington.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on where Wilfork ranks as a NT. I think there is a lot of consensus among Pats fans that Wilfork is the best 3-4 NT in the league. He's definitely at the top, but is he better than Haolti Ngata and Jamal Williams? Williams absolutely destroyed the interior of our OL the last time the Pats played SD.

 

[MassPats38]

I'm not sure I'd agree with the order of the priorities. If we were to go back to BB's day with the Giants and the Jets, I think the LB position has been a higher priority than the DLine in a Belichick 34. As examples:

That the DL was more a priority to BB during his tenure with the Browns can be said, but even there, he did sign Pepper Johnson and Carl Banks and chose to draft LB Craig Powell with the first round pick while playing a base 43 in his last year at Cleveland.

The Giants and Jets were Parcells, not Belichick (he was defensive coordinator). As Parcells made it quite clear he wanted to "shop for the groceries," I am not sure it can be said those reflect Belichick's preferences. With Belichick at the helm, how many 1st round picks have been spent on linebackers and how many on defensive linemen? I put the priorities of both in the front seven, not the secondary, and as such I would see Belichick wholly endorsing the addition of hall of fame linebackers like LT, who was could not be stopped by any blocker.

I actually don't remember that nor did I see it that way. I always thought the rotation of Traylor and a rook Big Vince held up quite well for the most part against the run. Actually, since moving to a base 34, I just don't recall the Pats fielding a shoddy rush defense including those in which Ted Washington was hurt and sidelined. Of course, there were a few games during the years when opposing RBs had good games, but for the most part, BB's 34 base Pats defenses have been stout in stuffing the run.

"Gouged" was an overstatement on my part as it was 2004 and the team went 14-2. That is based on my recollection (I don't claim to play back the full 2004 season, so it is a little hazy), and the statistics show some bad defensive days against the run, with Vince starting only 6 games, and I do not know if those were his games or not. You can read an article excerpt supporting my recollection here ("For now, the Pats' first-round pick out of Miami is still getting "comfortable" (his word) with the trench work needed to stuff the middle of Bill Belichick's defense. That process has shown itself most in run defense, and against the Steelers, Wilfork was part of a defensive line that got spun around by Duce Staley, Jerome Bettis . . . ").

Vince has always been a talent, but the point was you cannot assume that any defensive lineman can assume that role successively. You can review the game rushing yards that year yourself and see if it comports with your memory. I cannot debate the contents of your memory, I can only say I remember Vince did not step in and play the game he plays today. It took substantial time notwithstanding his talent.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'd like to hear people's opinions on where Wilfork ranks as a NT.

Well, Miami signed Jake Grove and may still be targeting a top Center in the draft because they're not too happy with how Samson Satele held up against Vince and the other NTs in the AFCE. Casey Hampton and Jamal Williams are both entering the final years of their careers, neither are known for being as athletic as Vince. I'd argue that like Ted Washington, Williams and Hampton are perhaps a little stouter at the point of attack, but not as capable as pass rushers or as mobile along the LOS or in pursuit.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Well, Miami signed Jake Grove and may still be targeting a top Center in the draft because they're not too happy with how Samson Satele held up against Vince and the other NTs in the AFCE. Casey Hampton and Jamal Williams are both entering the final years of their careers, neither are known for being as athletic as Vince. I'd argue that like Ted Washington, Williams and Hampton are perhaps a little stouter at the point of attack, but not as capable as pass rushers or as mobile along the LOS or in pursuit.

Good point about Miami's centers maybe dealing with 3 of the Top 5 NT in the league. While Stroud is getting older he is a Mass of a man to deal with at 6'6" and 310. Jenkins at 340lbs is arguably one of the best DT in the league and Wilfork's body of work speeks for itself. To have to play these three men 6 our of 16 games in a season would scare the sh*t out of me if I were the Miami center.

 

[State]

Just look at what Nick Saban did to 'Bama's defense when a gargantuan NT was put in place, Terrence Cody, 6'5" 380 pounds. It made all the difference to that pro-style 3-4 defense.

Here's a YouTube video of the Brobdingnagian player

Unless we can draft Mt. Cody when he comes out, presumably after next season, we had best keep Vince. I am worried about his weight, though. His wife had him on a diet, considering the early death of members of his family, but his weight seemed to really balloon last season, judging from the parabolic arc of his abdomen.

I disagree with some that Vince is much of a pass rusher. He can be effective for a few plays a game on this; however, it's clear he takes up space and stops the run or causes two bodies to be put on him, opening up room for another player to make the play.

 

[PatsFan37]

Is Vince much better than Ted Washington was in Ted's prime? That's a sincere question from a NT-non-expert. I love Vince but I also remember how good Ted was in 2003.

IIRC, TW could clog the line as well as VW, and could shed a block and tackle a cruising RB as well. In that regard, I think they're comparable.

To my eyes, the difference is all the other plays VW makes. After a play is over, it's instructive to see where he is. If it's a running play up the middle, VW is on the bottom of the pile, with the RBs ankle in his teeth. If it's a sack, VW has either pushed the center backwards, or tied up a C and G. If the play is nowhere near him, he still manages to be huffing and puffing a few short yards from the action.

I don't what all these other nose tackles are like, I don't watch them as much. Vince is always where the action is, knocking people down and he doesn't stop until the whistle. He has great endurance and great speed and acceleration for a guy that big. I don't know that other NTs have that kind of range. Of all the guys on defense, other teams absolutely have to game plan for him or they will not run the ball. Even then, the Pats are a great run-stopping team and Vince is the most important (and biggest) reason.

There's no doubt in my mind he's either re-signed before next year or franchised.

 

[CoachK]

Ted Washington was UNIQUE.

Vince is a s close as we are going to get to TW's effectiveness at clogging the middle.

If he doesn't get signed, IMHO the D is dramatically different.

 

[Water Boy]

There's no doubt in my mind he's either re-signed before next year or franchised.

Wow. You're really going out there on a limb with that statement.

 

[Wotan_the_Wanderer]

The Giants and Jets were Parcells, not Belichick (he was defensive coordinator).

As I noted in a previous reply to the same point, I'm aware that the '80s Giants team and the '90s Jets team were Parcells'. But how are the defenses different in philosophy and priority between the Tuna 34 teams with BB as DC versed the 34 Pats teams with BB as GM/coach? It's not like BB adopted the 46, the Tampa 2 or the Steel Curtain defense once he set out on his own and free from Parcells.

"Gouged" was an overstatement on my part as it was 2004 and the team went 14-2. That is based on my recollection (I don't claim to play back the full 2004 season, so it is a little hazy), and the statistics show some bad defensive days against the run, with Vince starting only 6 games, and I do not know if those were his games or not. You can read an article excerpt supporting my recollection here ("For now, the Pats' first-round pick out of Miami is still getting "comfortable" (his word) with the trench work needed to stuff the middle of Bill Belichick's defense. That process has shown itself most in run defense, and against the Steelers, Wilfork was part of a defensive line that got spun around by Duce Staley, Jerome Bettis . . . ").

Vince has always been a talent, but the point was you cannot assume that any defensive lineman can assume that role successively. You can review the game rushing yards that year yourself and see if it comports with your memory. I cannot debate the contents of your memory, I can only say I remember Vince did not step in and play the game he plays today. It took substantial time notwithstanding his talent.

Rather than addressing all the counterpoints you've raised, what happened with the run defense during the Monty/Chad experiment when Vince had a year under his belt and was plugging the middle well? In their first six games during that season, the run defense gave up more than a 100 yard in four of those games with SD and Denver both totaling something like 180 yards each on the ground?

My point is that there's much more to stuffing the run than a NT's excellent play. In the BB base 34, LBs are the one's who need to make the plays. I thought this was common knowledge.

 

[Wotan_the_Wanderer]

Is Vince much better than Ted Washington was in Ted's prime? That's a sincere question from a NT-non-expert. I love Vince but I also remember how good Ted was in 2003.

Vince has grown into the Washington true anchor, lined up straight over the center NT position, but it took him a year to get to that stage and BB's referred to this in a presser a couple of years ago. But Big Ted was really unique. Even at his age in '03, the guy was just so strong and explosive that he'd drive two guys a yard into the backfield then chose to hold his ground and clog up the middle by respecting his gap assignment.

As others have pointed out though, Vince is nearly as good in stuffing the middle as Big Ted was, but he's far more versatile, has better pursuit speed and makes plays on the flanks when needed. I really can't say Ted was better than Vince or vice versa though I do think Ted was slightly better in a goalline situation.

Lastly, Jamal even drops back into coverage for the Bolts on some plays from his NT spot. He's really unique in that respect because that's a role BB doesn't assign to Vince. But again, I'm hardly suggesting Williams' overall game is better than Vince nor do I think Vince's is better than Jamal's. They're all great NTs.

 

[RayClay]

Basically my question is do you think NT is as important/hard to replace as what we think Wilfork deserves/should be able to get in his next contract?

It's the most important position in the 3-4 period.

In my opinion.

 

[MassPats38]

But how are the defenses different in philosophy and priority between the Tuna 34 teams with BB as DC versed the 34 Pats teams with BB as GM/coach? It's not like BB adopted the 46, the Tampa 2 or the Steel Curtain defense once he set out on his own and free from Parcells.

To make this clear, you brought in the teams on which Belichick played the role of defensive coordinator in countering my statement that Belichick emphasized defensive lineman, pointing out the absence of 1st round picks spent on linebackers, so I will address your argument again. How are the defensive points of emphasis different? Parcells controlled personnel selection and drafting, not Belichick, so he decided where to spend money and picks, not Belichick. I thought that was common knowledge with his title as head coach and his history of wanting complete control - if you have a reference supporting your opinion Belichick had substantial input to Parcells in making those decisions, feel free to provide a link. And rather than attempt to address why a 34 on one team may not be the same as a 34 on another, other than an extremely basic statement of what that defense entails, consider whether personnel characteristics can limit or expand the capabilities of defenses out of a common set. If your answer is yes, then you need not respond as you have answered your own Parcells' team/Belichick's team riddle.

Rather than addressing all the counterpoints you've raised, what happened with the run defense during the Monty/Chad experiment when Vince had a year under his belt and was plugging the middle well? In their first six games during that season, the run defense gave up more than a 100 yard in four of those games with SD and Denver both totaling something like 180 yards each on the ground?

My point is that there's much more to stuffing the run than a NT's excellent play. In the BB base 34, LBs are the one's who need to make the plays. I thought this was common knowledge.

First, are you saying at the beginning of 2005 Wilfork was not still learning and was not part of the struggling defense? Again, I understand you have an opinion but feel free to point out how that was entirely on Beisel and Brown. Second, did I say linebackers were unimportant or that a 34 defense works without good linebackers? Please point out where I said that because my short term memory must be fading. I said Belichick places a premium on defensive linemen and then the front 7. His linebackers, not Parcells' linebackers to make that point abundantly clear as you appear to be struggling with the concept, have been smart veterans capable of performing their roles. His only big time acquisitions over 8 seasons have been Colvin and Thomas - everyone else fit a certain model for the ILB and OLB roles and was either on the team from Parcells' days (Bruschi and McGinest) when he became head coach, a veteran in the twilight of his years or a castoff from another team with the proper capabilities. The ILB role is not a simple one, which is why the Brown/Beisel experiment failed, but you may recall that Bruschi had his stroke within weeks of the Super Bowl and the Pats did not break the bank to bring in a premium free agent to replace him. If that meets your definition of Belichick's defensive priority, we must be consulting different dictionaries on the meaning of the term.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

First, are you saying at the beginning of 2005 Wilfork was not still learning and was not part of the struggling defense? Again, I understand you have an opinion but feel free to point out how that was entirely on Beisel and Brown.

I have to address this point.

I was still doing my game break downs in 2005, with all the people screaming for Beisal's and Brown's scalps few really looked at Vince and how much he was struggling making the adjustment from one-gap penetrator to two-gap brick wall. Vince was pancaked by Oakland's Jake Grove several times in that opening game, he played horribly. Pats1 may have the link around here yet, but my assessment then was he was pressing too hard and not playing his gap assignments. He'd start pushing one way and Grove would just take him where he wanted to go creating a nice cutback lane for the RB. Vince's pressing so hard also allowed Grove to cut block him, Vince put his face mask into the turf more than once tripping over Grove. Beisal and Brown were thrown in over their heads, but Vince didn't make it any easier for them.

Vince struggled the entire first half of the season, but around game eight it was like a light came on, and by game 10 he was starting to show the dominating form he shows us today. By my observations, it took Vince a season and a half of regular rotational and starting play before he was able to apply the technique of of NE two-gap NT and become the brick wall we all adore today. Well, most adore it, some clearly struggle to grasp the value of a true NT in the 3-4 with their suggestion to allow Vince to walk so NE can get Julius Peppers, sheesh.

 

[signbabybrady]

I have to address this point.

I was still doing my game break downs in 2005, with all the people screaming for Beisal's and Brown's scalps few really looked at Vince and how much he was struggling making the adjustment from one-gap penetrator to two-gap brick wall. Vince was pancaked by Oakland's Jake Grove several times in that opening game, he played horribly. Pats1 may have the link around here yet, but my assessment then was he was pressing too hard and not playing his gap assignments. He'd start pushing one way and Grove would just take him where he wanted to go creating a nice cutback lane for the RB. Vince's pressing so hard also allowed Grove to cut block him, Vince put his face mask into the turf more than once tripping over Grove. Beisal and Brown were thrown in over their heads, but Vince didn't make it any easier for them.

Vince struggled the entire first half of the season, but around game eight it was like a light came on, and by game 10 he was starting to show the dominating form he shows us today. By my observations, it took Vince a season and a half of regular rotational and starting play before he was able to apply the technique of of NE two-gap NT and become the brick wall we all adore today. Well, most adore it, some clearly struggle to grasp the value of a true NT in the 3-4 with their suggestion to allow Vince to walk so NE can get Julius Peppers, sheesh.

If I remember correct one of the things he did to help himself adjust was line up 1/2 yard further from the center which apparently helped him read and react in two gaps.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

For the record, Haynsworth's contract is almost all fluff. Its essentially a 4 year, 48M guaranteed deal.

Thats not all that far off from Seymour making 9.5M a year on a contract thats now, what 4 years old?

$48mil is a lot of guarantees.

If the Pats can't extend Vince he would likely hold out.

If that's the case is a 4-3 really that bad of a prospect?

LeKevin Smith looked really good at DT when he played last season. The Pats have the personnel to run a 4-3 effectively. Mayo would play the Mike, Adalius Thomas could move to weakside DE. Guyton has the speed to play OLB. Seymour could be cut which would save money.

A 4-3 without having to pay $40mil+ in guarantees to Wilfork seems more like a preferable alternative.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

If I remember correct one of the things he did to help himself adjust was line up 1/2 yard further from the center which apparently helped him read and react in two gaps.

Yep, we were able to see it on our TV recordings after it was mentioned, and it was more like a yard - yard and a half, which really forced those Guards to move to get a hit on him.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

$48mil is a lot of guarantees.

If the Pats can't extend Vince he would likely hold out.

If that's the case is a 4-3 really that bad of a prospect?

LeKevin Smith looked really good at DT when he played last season. The Pats have the personnel to run a 4-3 effectively. Mayo would play the Mike, Adalius Thomas could move to weakside DE. Guyton has the speed to play OLB. Seymour could be cut which would save money.

A 4-3 without having to pay $40mil+ in guarantees to Wilfork seems more like a preferable alternative.

Pay the money.

 

[Brady-To-Branch]

Pay the money.

Another reason I like the 4-3 is the the D has failed the last 3 years. That makes paying out the big money for the same scheme questionable.

Moreover, with so many teams switching to the 3-4, Wilfork's trade value becomes high.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Another reason I like the 4-3 is the the D has failed the last 3 years. That makes paying out the big money for the same scheme questionable.

Moreover, with so many teams switching to the 3-4, Wilfork's trade value becomes high.

Pay the money.