PostGame Thread 2023 Week 2: Patriots Lose to Dolphins 24-17

[archstanton543]

The Patriots offense is in trouble and Mac Jones 5.8 YPA and 5.5 YPA respectively ain't gonna cut it if you want to win football games in the NFL!

Is that because of arm strength or because of poor O-line play and subpar receivers?

 

[mike_usagisan]

I am not anti Mac at all. I am impressed by his optimism, accuracy on short passes and his ability to bond with his team mates.
The big question for every Pats fans that will come up is "Have we seen enough to pay MAC franchise QB level dollars to extend him in 2024 and do we want to place the franchise's offense in his hands rather than going in a different direction next year?"
I realize we still have a whole season to collect more data.
But so far there are some huge red flags that make me think he is not the guy you want to put all your chips on:

1. Inability to make the necessary plays when the game is on the line
2. Lack of clutch track record so far in NFL
3. Arm strength- lack of zip on balls for slants. See the difference between Tua and Mac on slants and throws that require zip
4. Lack of arm strength on deep outs...throws lollipops with too much air under them
5. Seems awkward on scrambles, his slides always seem to be 2 yards short of first down
6. Pocket presence, does not seem to have that 6th sense about getting away from pressure or stepping up in pocket

That being said, he has been dealt a crappy hand by Bill including, Matt Patricia, awful OL and mediocre WRs.
However despite the crappy hand, if I had to make a decision right now, I would definitely say do not extend him.

Assuming Bill is back, I think they pick up the 5th year option, but push off making a decision on a longer-term contract for another year. I just can't imagine they feel all that great about any veteran options that will be available in free agency and even if they do draft a QB high, they need someone to start while the rookie gets up to speed and (hopefully) wins the competition.

 

[lancerman]

So is the waterboy. But the Patriots waterboy doesn't sling all the passes and is in charge of executing the entire offense is he? Come on you can do better than that. But I'll admit that the Mac Jones apologists are getting creative.

I can list a handful of drives that would have been game winners that ended for reasons that had nothing to do with Jones. Just off the top of my head the fumble against Buffalo last year, the non-toe tap last week that any rudimentary NFL receiver makes. Those become part of that statistic.

 

[FCB02062]

wake me when this elite defense holds a team to fewer points than the Bill the Coachs 1993 Bay State League Offense scores

 

[VJCPatriot]

He is a Dink and Dunker.

A Game Manager where safe checkdown throws are his strength. If Sack Wilson outduels him will it be curtains for Corky?

Exactly so. Mac Jones is in his comfort zone as a "dink and dunker" because that plays into his physical limitations.

Now there are QBs in the NFL who can succeed at this playstyle but they need to be extremely consistent. Because throwing for 5.8 YPA or 5.5 YPA, you're not going to frighten the defense so you need "surgical precision" and you need to nail just about every single throw and Mac Jones isn't at that level yet.

The other problem is that Mac Jones is still turning the ball over when he's throwing for such low yardage per attempt. That one INT per game that he's giving up, well that's killing potential touchdown drives. And when you "dink and dunk" you actually have lower margin for error because you don't generate many explosive plays. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the announcer at one point say that a 15 yard throw by Mac Jones was his "longest throw of the game"? That's just pathetic.

If Mac Jones gets out dueled by a walking disaster like Wilson... OOF that's just going to be another condemnation of his abilities as an NFL QB. We should beat the Jets as they are one of the worst teams in the NFL right now. Key word 'should'.

 

[Kasmir]

A very TELLING statistic! This offense just has no comeback ability under Mac Jones. Either the defense pitches a near shutout or we end up losing. That's not called a winning offense!

The GOAT was 2-7 when the opposition scored 25 points or more in his last two seasons here. Did he suck too?

I have zero respect for those of you who advance statistical arguments without doing any comparative research.

Addendum: I'm always wary about obviously cherry picked pseudo-stats like this "25 points or more" bullsh*t. So looking into it, Mac won in game 8 of 2021 27-24 vs the Chargers after entering Q4 down 17-16. Comeback win.

So VJC chose 25 pts specifically to exclude that game. Don't trust any of his pseudo stats ever again.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

Exactly so. Mac Jones is in his comfort zone as a "dink and dunker" because that plays into his physical limitations.

Now there are QBs in the NFL who can succeed at this playstyle but they need to be extremely consistent. Because throwing for 5.8 YPA or 5.5 YPA, you're not going to frighten the defense so you need "surgical precision" and you need to nail just about every single throw and Mac Jones isn't at that level yet.

The other problem is that Mac Jones is still turning the ball over when he's throwing for such low yardage per attempt. That one INT per game that he's giving up, well that's killing potential touchdown drives. And when you "dink and dunk" you actually have lower margin for error because you don't generate many explosive plays. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the announcer at one point say that a 15 yard throw by Mac Jones was his "longest throw of the game"? That's just pathetic.

If Mac Jones gets out dueled by a walking disaster like Wilson... OOF that's just going to be another condemnation of his abilities as an NFL QB. We should beat the Jets as they are one of the worst teams in the NFL right now. Key word 'should'.

The offensive line may have a role in this method.

 

[zydecochris]

The Dolphins drafted Waddle and went out and got T. Hill because they knew the likes of D. Parker and M. Geiski weren’t good enough to be part of an élite offence.

We went out and got Parker and Geiski. Shows the difference in the teams skill positions and offensive outlook.

There is certainly a difference in skill levels, as you say.

…..There is also a vast difference in draft capital spent: 1st, 2nd and more for Hill; 2 high 1st’s to trade up for Waddle. Significant financial capital went to Hill’s giant contract also.

In contrast, the Pats sent a later round pick for Parker. Three high 1st round picks and a 2nd to the WR position, no wonder the Fins receivers look awesome. But the loss of that draft capital will bite them down the road IMHO. But for the time being, the Fins are putting on a bit of a show.

 

[Bruins29]

I am not anti Mac at all

Not at all. Not one smidgen

 

[VJCPatriot]

The offensive line may have a role in this method.

And who put together that OL? Who FAILED to sign a significant OL in free agency or the draft?

Around and around we go and the Excuses keep flying without the BLAME being assigned for the people FAILING to perform at their jobs!

 

[Rob0729]

You found the perfect wording there. Mac Jones is a "front runner". Give him the ideal conditions and he can cook together a decent game. Give him any kind of adversity and he gets the "deer in headlights" look and just fails to make those crucial passes that the team needs to win.

Look when you give him the Tide's overpowered talent compared to everyone else in college, he can crush it, we've seen that happen. But when working with a talent deficit on offense, like we have right now, there's no way he's the right QB for the Patriots, not with these weapons and this OL.

It's only 2 games into the new season but Mac Jones has put up a grand total of 5.8 YPA and 5.5 YPA respectively. It doesn't look like he has what it takes to work from behind. He can only succeed when thinks work out perfectly for him. Maybe it's time for the Patriots to start considering other options at QB because this kid doesn't look like he has what it takes to "elevate" the other players around him. And isn't that what you want from a leader, a true franchise Quarterback? Whatever he is, Mac Jones simply is NOT that right now.

Let's see if the o-line can actually start blocking and then see if his YPA goes up. They are making these short throws because they don't have time for plays to develop. On Sunday, some of the only time Mac had extra time to make throws down the field was when he improvised and scrambled out of the pocket and had to redirect receivers on the fly to adjust to the broken play.

The Patriots low YPA is by design. Not because Mac isn't able to get the ball down the field. They are throwing a lot of quick passes behind the line of scrimmage or just beyond the line because they don't trust the o-line to hold up for long. That is why benching Douglas was monumentally stupid.

 

[Rob0729]

Is that because of arm strength or because of poor O-line play and subpar receivers?

Yes, O'Brien is trying to adjust the offense to maximize the "talent" he has. That is what good OCs do. He could try to do more vertical passing, but Mac would get killed and only bad things could happen.

 

[mike_usagisan]

Yes, O'Brien is trying to adjust the offense to maximize the "talent" he has. That is what good OCs do. He could try to do more vertical passing, but Mac would get killed and only bad things could happen.

For evidence, see all of last season.

 

[archstanton543]

And who put together that OL? Who FAILED to sign a significant OL in free agency or the draft?

Around and around we go and the Excuses keep flying without the BLAME being assigned for the people FAILING to perform at their jobs!

I see plenty of people (including myself) putting a lot of blame on BB, bud.

 

[VJCPatriot]

There is certainly a difference in skill levels, as you say.

…..There is also a vast difference in draft capital spent: 1st, 2nd and more for Hill; 2 high 1st’s to trade up for Waddle. Significant financial capital went to Hill’s giant contract also.

In contrast, the Pats sent a later round pick for Parker. Three high 1st round picks and a 2nd to the WR position, no wonder the Fins receivers look awesome. But the loss of that draft capital will bite them down the road IMHO. But for the time being, the Fins are putting on a bit of a show.

Losing draft capital only bites you in the butt when you FAIL to acquire top talent with that capital.

For example the 49ers trading away three 1st round picks to move up for Trey Lance bit them in the butt because he was a bust and they later moved him on for just a 4th round pick.

If Trey Lance were the next Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes would anyone bat an eyelash? NO.

If the Patriots had jumped ahead of the Dolphins and given up 2 1st round picks for Jaylen Waddle and he plays for the Patriots the way he has for the Dolphins, would anyone regret that expenditure of draft capital? NO.

It's about getting the right player. Waddle would have been a gamechanger for us. But the Patriots can't identify WR talent so I doubt he was ever high on our priority list so that type of trade probably never even occurred inside BB's brain.

 

[Rob0729]

For evidence, see all of last season.

That is a huge difference between O'Brien and Patricia. Patricia tried to force the talent to do what he wanted to do even if they weren't built to do it. O'Brien tries to maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of his players. But that offensive line as it was constructed on Sunday might have been a lost cause. But he did a good job minimizes the deficiencies of the o-line in week one even with Mac under pressure over half the passes.

 

[zydecochris]

Losing draft capital only bites you in the butt when you FAIL to acquire top talent with that capital.

For example the 49ers trading away three 1st round picks to move up for Trey Lance bit them in the butt because he was a bust and they later moved him on for just a 4th round pick.

If Trey Lance were the next Aaron Rodgers or Mahomes would anyone bat an eyelash? NO.

If the Patriots had jumped ahead of the Dolphins and given up 2 1st round picks for Jaylen Waddle and he plays for the Patriots the way he has for the Dolphins, would anyone regret that expenditure of draft capital? NO.

It's about getting the right player. Waddle would have been a gamechanger for us. But the Patriots can't identify WR talent so I doubt he was ever high on our priority list so that type of trade probably never even occurred inside BB's brain.

Even though I’m not a fan of teams with GM/Coaches who mortgage the future (when they are likely be gone) and sacrifice future draft capital, I have to admit it is really working well, at least for the present the for the Fins. Plus Tua’s confidence seems to be sky high, and if the WR moves help make Tua a top QB they may not regret the move.

 

[Toofy]

Even though I’m not a fan of teams with GM/Coaches who mortgage the future (when they are likely be gone) and sacrifice future draft capital, I have to admit it is really working well, at least for the present the for the Fins. Plus Tua’s confidence seems to be sky high, and if the WR moves help make Tua a top QB they may not regret the move.

Interesting viewpoint. This sacrifice might help the QB realize his potential and make them more confident , so when chips ar edown, the QB can try to elevate thaie around him.

When we have a carousel of lousy talent, we pull the QB also down the quicksand. I think we shoukd try to maximize the next 3 years of Mac and go all in . And have the 4th year as reset year.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

*sigh*

I hate the final 4th and 4 decision by Mac to take the out to Gesicki. He doesn't get enough on the ball and Gesicki has to step up one step inside the sticks, and then makes an inside move, kind of, which cost him more ground. I really want to see the all 22 on this play, because it looks like Parker has his guy beat when he gets out of frame. My whole point is Mac needed to throw the ball to a better, deeper spot of he is going to go to Gesicki, which it looks like he's locked on for whatever reason. He's gotta throw it past the sticks, and he's short. Maybe it's on Gesicki to get deeper, but it looks like Mac didn't give him enough to work with.



This is what folks are referring to, IMO, when they talk about signature wins. Mac's QB performance is likely described as "fine" or "adequate". Neither of those things are good enough without dynamic playmakers to help take the pressure off. Either way, taking the safe throw short of the sticks doesn't help them win. Mac's gotta be better.

Curmudgeon old Bill benches his most dynamic guy after a turn over. Didn't bench Zeke last week, however. Back to sending messages instead of winning football games. Shades of footgate. Not saying that if Douglas plays the whole game they'd win, but he's not helping redeem himself by sitting the pine.

there was a free blitzer right in his face.. he threw it about as late as he could have, Giesecki hadn't even started breaking out on his route yet

this was 1 second after snap


this is 1 frame later, not even 2 seconds into the play yet.. and hes in his throwing motion



1 frame later.. about 2 seconds into the play the ball is out

 

[Ollie]

and? What’s your point?

Mac isn’t playing with bad weapons, just averages one.

In the context of the post that many people would struggle in Macs situation and your response of "sure keep telling yourself that" Brady struggled that year and he had a better O line and even a 2019 Edelman would be the best WR on this team. After that it fell off pretty sharply apart from White. QBs need support. Not many teams are going to win with a **** O line and average WR. I actually think Mac look ok this week despite this. Not great but it was the first time i've seen him display decent pocket awareness and be able to throw on the move and not look flustered.