12/8 Revised Possible Pats Offseason

[thodoks]

Not really sure where to bring this up, so I'll post it here.

It seems pretty obvious that there's going to be serious turnover on the defensive side of the ball, particularly in the front seven. What are everyone's thoughts on Chris Gocong? He'll be a RFA and would likely take significant (<2nd rounder) to pry away from Philly. Is he a fit next to Mayo at ILB? What kind of $$$ would it take to get him?

Am I totally off base here?

 

[wilfork is beastin']

I like everything about the OP's assessment except for the fact that we lose to Indy in the playoffs. Losing to the Benglas would be ok

 

[mayoclinic]

Here is a tiip for you.

When considering which O line guys to put in your mock draft, consider the blocking scheme we run and try to find guys that fit that scheme. That is how I found and then included Vollmer in my final mock draft last year.

1.) If I examine Pouncey, I see a guy that spent four years in a funky offense that DOES NOT translate well to the pro game. I see a guy that never had to make 1 line call and never had a QB take a snap from under center. He has never had to fire off the ball with a QB under center. Bottom line is that while he may blossom with the right coaching, BB has NEVER taken an offensive lineman on day one that DID NOT have expereicen in a type of zone blocking scheme, except for Adrian Klenmm and I am not sure we were running the zone blocking scheme back then.

2.) LSU runs a straight ahead power running game that does not require their OT's to make any reads and very rarely do the OG's pass off pass rushers that leave their zone. Barksdale has miserable technique and really struggles with change of direction. Bottom line is he is a round peg for a square hole. Lots of work needed before he could be trusted on our O line.

PS: Hard to imagine Carmini with the feet to play OT in the NFL, could be a devastating OG though.

Hope this helps!

What do you think of UMass Offensive Tackle Vladimir Ducasse? 6'5" 330# guy with relatively quick feet and a lot of upside who many predicted would move inside to guard, but may have the athleticism to play tackle. I could see him making a Vollmer-esque rise and be a 2nd round pick.

 

[mayoclinic]

How about something like the following alternative to the OP:

1. Pats trade Matt Light to KC for #70.
2. Pats trade #21 and #42 plus James Sanders and a 2011 3rd round pick to Denver for #10 and 58. With Brian Dawkins turning 36, Denver needs depth at safety. Pats get 1620 points and give up 1280, plus a 2011 3rd (around 120 points) plus Sanders, which values Sanders as a 3rd round pick.

Pats draft:

1(10) Rolando McClain, ILB, Alabama.
2(50) Greg Romeus, DE/OLB, Pittsburgh. 6'5" 265# guy with nice athleticism and upside, and a terrific motor.
2(52) Gabe Carimi, OT/OG, Wisconsin. Massive mauler at 6'7" 325# who can play inside or out.
2(58) Vladimir Ducasse, OT/OG, UMass. 6'5" 328# Haitian still learning the game with nice footwork and terrific power. Both Ducasse and Carimi can probably play either RT or RG.
3(70) Corey Wootton, DE, Northwestern

Just throwing out some different names for consideration.

I still think the Pats try to pick up a veteran pass rusher in FA or via trade. It's hard to tell this early who will be available. I'd take a risk on Merriman if he is somehow a UFA or available cheaply. I'm actually more interested in him now than when I posted this, as he would bring a certain level of intensity and passion to the defense which is currently missing. Whatever his flaws, Merriman has always played hard, and has never been one to quit.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

How about something like the following alternative to the OP:

1. Pats trade Matt Light to KC for #70.
2. Pats trade #21 and #42 plus James Sanders and a 2011 3rd round pick to Denver for #10 and 58. With Brian Dawkins turning 36, Denver needs depth at safety. Pats get 1620 points and give up 1280, plus a 2011 3rd (around 120 points) plus Sanders, which values Sanders as a 3rd round pick.

Pats draft:

1(10) Rolando McClain, ILB, Alabama.
2(50) Greg Romeus, DE/OLB, Pittsburgh. 6'5" 265# guy with nice athleticism and upside, and a terrific motor.
2(52) Gabe Carimi, OT/OG, Wisconsin. Massive mauler at 6'7" 325# who can play inside or out.
2(58) Vladimir Ducasse, OT/OG, UMass. 6'5" 328# Haitian still learning the game with nice footwork and terrific power. Both Ducasse and Carimi can probably play either RT or RG.
3(70) Corey Wootton, DE, Northwestern

Just throwing out some different names for consideration.

I still think the Pats try to pick up a veteran pass rusher in FA or via trade. It's hard to tell this early who will be available. I'd take a risk on Merriman if he is somehow a UFA or available cheaply. I'm actually more interested in him now than when I posted this, as he would bring a certain level of intensity and passion to the defense which is currently missing. Whatever his flaws, Merriman has always played hard, and has never been one to quit.

That would be a great offseason/draft. I'd definitely take the risk on Merriman too. I think he's going to return to form and the energy/passion he plays with would have a trickle down effect to the rest of the defense. I really like the trade up for McClain and the Greg Romeus pick, good work.

 

[mgteich]

This works for me. I think denver would be fine with the deal. Josh gets Sanders, better financial value with 21 and 42 and gets a 3rd as a bonus. If the situation were reversed, belichick would likely be willing to trade down.

I think that we discuss this right up to draft day when Belichick will likely disappoint us yet again, by not trading up into the top 10.

How about something like the following alternative to the OP:

1. Pats trade Matt Light to KC for #70.
2. Pats trade #21 and #42 plus James Sanders and a 2011 3rd round pick to Denver for #10 and 58. With Brian Dawkins turning 36, Denver needs depth at safety. Pats get 1620 points and give up 1280, plus a 2011 3rd (around 120 points) plus Sanders, which values Sanders as a 3rd round pick.

Pats draft:

1(10) Rolando McClain, ILB, Alabama.
2(50) Greg Romeus, DE/OLB, Pittsburgh. 6'5" 265# guy with nice athleticism and upside, and a terrific motor.
2(52) Gabe Carimi, OT/OG, Wisconsin. Massive mauler at 6'7" 325# who can play inside or out.
2(58) Vladimir Ducasse, OT/OG, UMass. 6'5" 328# Haitian still learning the game with nice footwork and terrific power. Both Ducasse and Carimi can probably play either RT or RG.
3(70) Corey Wootton, DE, Northwestern

Just throwing out some different names for consideration.

I still think the Pats try to pick up a veteran pass rusher in FA or via trade. It's hard to tell this early who will be available. I'd take a risk on Merriman if he is somehow a UFA or available cheaply. I'm actually more interested in him now than when I posted this, as he would bring a certain level of intensity and passion to the defense which is currently missing. Whatever his flaws, Merriman has always played hard, and has never been one to quit.

 

[O'Doyle Rules!]

This works for me. I think denver would be fine with the deal. Josh gets Sanders, better financial value with 21 and 42 and gets a 3rd as a bonus. If the situation were reversed, belichick would likely be willing to trade down.

I don't know. Denver's one of those teams I'm afraid would be just as interested in drafting McClain as we are. There is definitely a need there for a quality ILB, and if you just browse the Denver fan forums you'll see they're crazy about him too. I kinda consider them to be more of a threat than a trade partner. That's why I now root for the Bears to win out

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't know. Denver's one of those teams I'm afraid would be just as interested in drafting McClain as we are. There is definitely a need there for a quality ILB, and if you just browse the Denver fan forums you'll see they're crazy about him too. I kinda consider them to be more of a threat than a trade partner. That's why I now root for the Bears to win out

Your point is valid, but you never know. Denver might not value McClain quite as highly, and might prefer to add a pass rushing complement to Dumervil, which they could easily do at 21. The only pass rusher worth taking at 10 is Derrick Morgan, and he doesn't seem like a great fit for them. They could prefer McClain, but I don't think it's a slam dunk.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

How about something like the following alternative to the OP:

1. Pats trade Matt Light to KC for #70.
2. Pats trade #21 and #42 plus James Sanders and a 2011 3rd round pick to Denver for #10 and 58. With Brian Dawkins turning 36, Denver needs depth at safety. Pats get 1620 points and give up 1280, plus a 2011 3rd (around 120 points) plus Sanders, which values Sanders as a 3rd round pick.

Pats draft:

1(10) Rolando McClain, ILB, Alabama.
2(50) Greg Romeus, DE/OLB, Pittsburgh. 6'5" 265# guy with nice athleticism and upside, and a terrific motor.
2(52) Gabe Carimi, OT/OG, Wisconsin. Massive mauler at 6'7" 325# who can play inside or out.
2(58) Vladimir Ducasse, OT/OG, UMass. 6'5" 328# Haitian still learning the game with nice footwork and terrific power. Both Ducasse and Carimi can probably play either RT or RG.
3(70) Corey Wootton, DE, Northwestern

Just throwing out some different names for consideration.

I still think the Pats try to pick up a veteran pass rusher in FA or via trade. It's hard to tell this early who will be available. I'd take a risk on Merriman if he is somehow a UFA or available cheaply. I'm actually more interested in him now than when I posted this, as he would bring a certain level of intensity and passion to the defense which is currently missing. Whatever his flaws, Merriman has always played hard, and has never been one to quit.

I would love to get a pick in the 10 to 14 range. Excellent thinking.

 

[OldNEPatsFan]

How about something like the following alternative to the OP:

1. Pats trade Matt Light to KC for #70.
2. Pats trade #21 and #42 plus James Sanders and a 2011 3rd round pick to Denver for #10 and 58. With Brian Dawkins turning 36, Denver needs depth at safety. Pats get 1620 points and give up 1280, plus a 2011 3rd (around 120 points) plus Sanders, which values Sanders as a 3rd round pick.

Pats draft:

1(10) Rolando McClain, ILB, Alabama.
2(50) Greg Romeus, DE/OLB, Pittsburgh. 6'5" 265# guy with nice athleticism and upside, and a terrific motor.
2(52) Gabe Carimi, OT/OG, Wisconsin. Massive mauler at 6'7" 325# who can play inside or out.
2(58) Vladimir Ducasse, OT/OG, UMass. 6'5" 328# Haitian still learning the game with nice footwork and terrific power. Both Ducasse and Carimi can probably play either RT or RG.
3(70) Corey Wootton, DE, Northwestern

Just throwing out some different names for consideration.

I still think the Pats try to pick up a veteran pass rusher in FA or via trade. It's hard to tell this early who will be available. I'd take a risk on Merriman if he is somehow a UFA or available cheaply. I'm actually more interested in him now than when I posted this, as he would bring a certain level of intensity and passion to the defense which is currently missing. Whatever his flaws, Merriman has always played hard, and has never been one to quit.

Wootton won 't be there

 

[Warren94]

Great Job Mayoclinic,

Again with my SEC glasses on I wouldn't mind them taking a flyer on Charles Scott RB from LSU. north south runner who can chew the clock... Thoughts?

 

[mayoclinic]

Wootton won 't be there

Possibly, but not definite. He was a 1st round prospect going into this season, but has been inconsistent. He could climb back up to the early 2nd or even late 1st, but going early 3rd is by no means out of the question.

And if not Wootton, then one of Adrian Clayborn, Leonard Marsh, Cameron Jordan, or someone else will be available at 3-4 DE. Or Austen Lane or Jeremy Beal at DE/OLB. There will be some serious talent available in the early 3rd round.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Great Job Mayoclinic,

Again with my SEC glasses on I wouldn't mind them taking a flyer on Charles Scott RB from LSU. north south runner who can chew the clock... Thoughts?

Expected to run a 4.6 at the combine, not sure if that will cut it in the NFL.

If we were to take a 4.6 runner Anthony Dixon of Miss State might be a better option. He is highly productive running behind a weak zone blocking line, catches passes and blocks a little as well.

 

[mayoclinic]

Expected to run a 4.6 at the combine, not sure if that will cut it in the NFL.

If we were to take a 4.6 runner Anthony Dixon of Miss State might be a better option. He is highly productive running behind a weak zone blocking line, catches passes and blocks a little as well.

Anthony Dixon would be a much better option. Fantastic option, for that matter.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Anthony Dixon would be a much better option. Fantastic option, for that matter.

Yes, but at 4.6 he needs great O line blocking to make yards.

As a Patriot, has BB ever drafted a day one running back slower than 4.45?

PS: Will Gerhart cause BB to have a flashback to Vardell?????

 

[sg14]

Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but....

I am on board with this thought, maybe not Lewis, but BB must get some veteran leadership in the locker room.
Don't know how you find that player but hopefully BB has somebodies in mind. I don't think that includes Merriman.

In the early days of BB he brought over players from past teams, but under his new way of cycling thru players don't know if he has any good connections anymore.

It might be. This team definitely needs another reliable receiving threat that Brady can trust. It wouldn't be my choice of a first rounder, but if he's the best player on the board when the Pats draft, I'd be OK with it.


But what I really want BB to do, and I hate myself for saying so, is get Ray Lewis. He'll most likely be a free agent after the season, and it's become pretty f'ing evident we need some veteran leadership on this team (where are you Junior?). His run defense skills have seriously deteriorated, but I think he's still one of the top 5 coverage linebackers in the NFL, and nobody hates losing more than he does. There will be no laughing and clowning around in the locker room or flight home after a loss. He's also a Super Bowl champion and knows what sacrifice it takes to win.

I think there's too much of a leadership mantle on Mayo right now. If BB can get Lewis to come to Foxboro on a 2 yr, reasonable $ deal, I think he should do it. Say what you will about the man, and I've said it all over the last five years, but he is a consummate Pro.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: I can't believe I'm saying this, but....

But what I really want BB to do, and I hate myself for saying so, is get Ray Lewis. He'll most likely be a free agent after the season, and it's become pretty f'ing evident we need some veteran leadership on this team (where are you Junior?). His run defense skills have seriously deteriorated, but I think he's still one of the top 5 coverage linebackers in the NFL, and nobody hates losing more than he does. There will be no laughing and clowning around in the locker room or flight home after a loss. He's also a Super Bowl champion and knows what sacrifice it takes to win.

I think there's too much of a leadership mantle on Mayo right now. If BB can get Lewis to come to Foxboro on a 2 yr, reasonable $ deal, I think he should do it. Say what you will about the man, and I've said it all over the last five years, but he is a consummate Pro.

Why do you think Ray Lewis will be a FA after this year? He signed a 3 year deal with Baltimore last spring. He's playing well enough to justify it. I think Lewis will play out his contract and retire a Raven at this point.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

I'm a big fan of adding Merriman. I love the passion he plays with and the dedication he has to football. Tried to play with a busted knee b/c he loves the game so much. We could use the rah-rah leader in the locker room, the energy/chaos/aggressiveness on the field, and the pass rushing skills. Hopefully b/c of his subpar year this year he comes at a reduced price.

And for all those people saying he's done and he's been bad this year, just remember, you sign a guy to a contract based on how you predict he will perform in the future, not how he performed in the past. I expect Merriman to be back to his old self next year.

 

[BlackFrancis]

Interesting thread. Lots to consider and some tremendous points by Ochmed.

I've got some problems with any trade of Light, unless the return would be absurd. There is just no way I want anything to do with Kaczur as a starter at this point. He gets completely exposed every single time Neal goes down with his annual injury. Getting rid of Light would certainly open up some cap space but jettisoning Kaczur would barely cost his salary in a capped year - never mind the whole "Who cares?" scenario of an uncapped season. Shifting Light over to the right side would help whoever takes over for Neal next season as well as help get balance the left side run tendencies they've been exhibiting lately.

As far as Merriman goes, if you want a pass rusher/knee injury victim, why not go with someone cheaper with experience in the 2 gap scheme, if a little older? Aaron Kampman was starting to come along in the 3-4 this season until he knee exploded. He has a proven motor and has been only getting better as a pass rusher as he ages. Granted, he tore his ACL a little late in the season for an optimistic shot at a Week 1 debut but he'll likely be as cheap as dirt in the offseason, rather than being a $20M+ prayer to the reclamation project heavens.

Whoever tabbed Bailey nailed it. The man is a freak of nature and should transition to an excellent 2 gap 3-4 DE. Granted, he hits one gap and hauls ass through it at The U but he's got the strength to hold up in a 2 gap system. I'd move up in the first to get him if I had to. Drafting Bailey and following it up with Brandon Graham in the second round and taking a flyer on George Selvie in the fourth or fifth as LB conversion projects would do wonders for the pass rush.

High tender the high tenderables, franchise Wilfork, bring in Kampman, Bailey, Graham and Selvie along with some backup offensive linemen and a Faulk replacement (really like the Bush idea) and I'd be ready to go to war in 2010.

 

[mayoclinic]

Interesting thread. Lots to consider and some tremendous points by Ochmed.

I've got some problems with any trade of Light, unless the return would be absurd. There is just no way I want anything to do with Kaczur as a starter at this point. He gets completely exposed every single time Neal goes down with his annual injury. Getting rid of Light would certainly open up some cap space but jettisoning Kaczur would barely cost his salary in a capped year - never mind the whole "Who cares?" scenario of an uncapped season. Shifting Light over to the right side would help whoever takes over for Neal next season as well as help get balance the left side run tendencies they've been exhibiting lately.

As far as Merriman goes, if you want a pass rusher/knee injury victim, why not go with someone cheaper with experience in the 2 gap scheme, if a little older? Aaron Kampman was starting to come along in the 3-4 this season until he knee exploded. He has a proven motor and has been only getting better as a pass rusher as he ages. Granted, he tore his ACL a little late in the season for an optimistic shot at a Week 1 debut but he'll likely be as cheap as dirt in the offseason, rather than being a $20M+ prayer to the reclamation project heavens.

I think Kampman is a nice alternative to Merriman, and I applaud the suggestion. Kampman will be a UFA next season, and I think Green Bay is unlikely to try and retain him. However, given his ACL injury, his age (he'll be 30 next November) and the fact that he struggled quite a bit in the 3-4 earlier in the season, I think I would prefer Merriman if the price is right. Merriman brings an intensity and non-stop motor which this defense could use right now, and I'm not sure you'll get that out of Kampman. But I think he's a nice backup option, and I hadn't thought of him. I'm just not sure that he's shown enough to prove that he can be a 3-4 OLB and not just a 4-3 DE.

Whoever tabbed Bailey nailed it. The man is a freak of nature and should transition to an excellent 2 gap 3-4 DE. Granted, he hits one gap and hauls ass through it at The U but he's got the strength to hold up in a 2 gap system. I'd move up in the first to get him if I had to. Drafting Bailey and following it up with Brandon Graham in the second round and taking a flyer on George Selvie in the fourth or fifth as LB conversion projects would do wonders for the pass rush.

For the record, I queried Ochmed on Bailey and Cameron Heyward as 3-4 DE's in another thread, and he wasn't particularly high on either: "Bailey I think is a pure 4-3 player. Heyward - I like his game but I do not see BB being interested in him. The Ohio State defense is a true one gap penetrating defense that is very different from ours and BB does not usually draft Ohio State kids, in part because it is too great a projection." The one gap concern applies to Bailey as well.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...13/302020-wes-buntings-all-big-10-team.html (see post #7)

I think Bailey and Heyward are intriguing 3-4 DE prospects with more upside than guys like Arthur Jones or Jared Odrick, but they are less obvious fits for our scheme. Not sure that BB would go after Bailey in the 1st round. If he's available in the 2nd I could see it happening. I'd love Brandon Graham in the 2nd too, but doubt he lasts. I don't see Selvie doing anything for us, no matter in what round he ends up going.

High tender the high tenderables, franchise Wilfork, bring in Kampman, Bailey, Graham and Selvie along with some backup offensive linemen and a Faulk replacement (really like the Bush idea) and I'd be ready to go to war in 2010.