“defense is full of bad players“

[long distance]

Bashing the team after “unexpected“ loss is “business as usual“. But I was really surprised about some statements from experienced posters saying that besides “lack of speed“ etc - this defence is “full of bad players“. Now here I am confused. I understand there is a big difference in players “evaluations“ among fans let alone NE FO but its really strange how this came from one of the “best/deepest rosters in cap era“ (where rookies and esp. udfas have something like zero chance to make it) to the D roster “full of bad players“.

While it is true that “DE“ or edge position didn't go according to expectations, and there were some questions about LB speed and 3-down players, the rest of D made people pretty excited IIRC.

I guess we just came full circle: after being excited about new D last preseason, bashing it for most of the year despite results and stats and finally excepting that the #1 scoring D was not so bad after all . we got even more excited this offseason with the additions of Gilmore (and some also about Guy), keeping Hightower and Butler, drafting of Rivers and Wise, and adding top udfa Langi (afterwards bit by bit also about emergence of another Butler) only to come to the quick conclusion that this D is really bad.

So who are all these bad players BB kept on the roster?

Lets start with eternal scapegoat Jordan Richards. Vast majority of the board “evaluates“ him as bad player so he must be - no matter what BB and MP think or what film shows. Ok, that's one.

Next scapegoat of the week is Malcom Brown. I can understand people see him as disappointing 1st rounder (i even “proposed“ a possibility of “surprising“ trade) but does that make him a bad player? BB talked about his inconsistency but Brown is still a versatile and very solid DL, voted in “all-rookie team“ in 2015 and had a solid 2016 (“above average“ by PFF). Disappointment? Maybe. Bad player? Hardly.

Ironically people who actually bothered to watch the film discovered that it was Branch who was the biggest liability on the line. So is a “Pro Bowl snub“ suddenly a bad player after one game? Or is it possible that a guy who misses most of preseason can have a bad start especially on a bad day for the whole team (coaches included)?

Are the rest of DL starters - Guy, Flowers, Hightower - bad players? Or are the rookies we only saw for a few snaps (Wise, A.Butler doing pretty well btw)? Is Marsh already a bad player coming in a few days ago (while SEA fans still mourn his trade)?

Is KVN a bad player? He was exposed a bit the other night (also due to game plan) and maybe didn't best handle green dot duties on pretty unusual D look w front 7 personnel never playing together like that before (and maybe practicing 3 times). He also made good plays and was extended probably for a reason.

Harris, Roberts and Langi were not part of this game plan and they are mostly situational players but I don't think that makes them bad players. Of course it would be nice to have another top end 3-down injury-safe LB but this is not fantasy league.

The secondary was raved (here and around) as one of the best units in the league so I doubt posters think Gilmore, Butler, McCourty or Chung are bad players (although Chung was a “bad player“ once). Yet this is the unit that made the biggest and costliest mistakes on Thursday.
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And I really don't understand the calls for new additions. Are 33-year old Ninkovich who people wanted to retire time ago and couldn't handle the grind of TC or Akeem Ayers who didn't make a single 90-man roster and missed the whole off-season and pre-season suddenly significant upgrades to these “bad players“? Id like to see Ayers added off-season to fight for the roster spot and I don't mind kicking his tires now but to think that his, Ninko's or any addition for that matter would turn this D around is fantasy and “grass is greener“ thinking. (interesting how Ninko himself became much more valuable player now that he is not on the roster etc etc)

Id think its closer to reality that Patriots D is full of good or at least solid players that have every chance to make one of the better D units in the league once more (baring significant injuries of course like everywhere). And that this is just the usual back to work, correct mistakes and do your job well situation.

Here is what a guy that actually worked through this situations w BB has to say about it (while dodging loud self-absorbed hot takes from the hosts):

Mike Lombardi on OMF: I never thought a Bill Belichick defense would give up so many big plays

 

[Uptown]

People need to get a ****ing grip.

 

[farn]

There are more players on D on this 2017 squad that I believe can "make a play" than those years between 2008-2013 when I felt there was no one you could count on to get a game breaker.

Since that 2014 winner, I feel there are options (HT, DMac, Collins, Butler,...).

On this team, I feel all four top secondary options CAN make a big play. I feel Harmon can make a big play. I also think HT, Flowers, and Branch can be big in the clutch.

Hopefully BB can right the ship and this opener becomes the laugher the 31-0 Bills game from 2003.

 

[Snooky97]

It was a bad week for everyone, and I think the majority of us fans know that. The defence isn't bad, we've lost a couple of players. I have full belief we will be fine, last week was a blip and to be honest Kansas are a good team. The QB is smart, smith knows what he can and can't do and Andy Reid called a very good game. Was just one of those weeks where everything that could go wrong did. Doesn't worry me even though my little flyer of a bet of 16-0 and 19-0 has gone.. but that was just hope! In BB, MP, JMCD we trust.

 

[neuronet]

I largely agree except the stuff on Ninko. Who was ever dissing him? He has been a workhorse. But I also agree it is very unusual for a BB defense to give up so many big plays. That is literally his raison d'etre. This was an anomaly and I can't imagine a repeat of that combo of rust and lack of prep and what looked like overconfidence frankly.

 

[Soul_Survivor88]

@long distance Good post! Thank you for making these good points

I never felt concerned about our secondary. With D-Mac, Harmon, Chung, Butler, Rowe, and Gilmore - our secondary has experience and talent. There's also some size and talent in the interior defensive line with Guy, Branch, Brown, and Valentine.

There's even some good-to-serviceable MLBs with Roberts and Harris, who are suited for certain downs and can play against the run.

What's missing are good, experienced edge defenders and OLBs - specifically players with the range and athlethicism to contain or cover speedy TEs and RBs. I love what I've seen from Flowers and Wise so far. And Hightower has been an elite playmaker and leader for several seasons. But besides that, who else is there?

McCellin may return from IR midseason ....Akeem Ayers may still have something left in the tank.... Nikovich might bring the experience and familarity needed to help stabalize the front .... even Geneo Grissom could be brought up from the practice squad if need be.... but the talent level still is still a concern, barring some kind of trade.

Watching Thursday's game, I thought Belichick was going on 4th downs because of confidence in offense.... now it appears lack of confidence in Defense may also have been a factor

 

[TeamFirst]

i don't think the defense is full of bad players, I just think the coaching staff and the players had a horrible night.

It will be a different story if/when we play the Chiefs again.

I am more concerned about the offense at this point.

 

[Angelpats]

It was just a bad game, but it was suprising that a BB coached team wasn't as prepared as a Reid coached team.

 

[long distance]

I largely agree except the stuff on Ninko. Who was ever dissing him? He has been a workhorse. But I also agree it is very unusual for a BB defense to give up so many big plays. That is literally his raison d'etre. This was an anomaly and I can't imagine a repeat of that combo of rust and lack of prep and what looked like overconfidence frankly.

It was somewhat surprising to hear hints of attitude (“urgency“ etc.) problems - maybe not so much from Brady but more from guys like Solder and Gilmore. Gilmore mumbled about the lack of hunger: “Just gotta go out and play with a hungry attitude,” he said. “We’ve got to be hungry out there on the field. I don’t think we’ve done that as as team.”

Without hunger it is hard to win in this league no matter the roster or game plan. Bad game and the loss should make them hungrier in NO..

 

[neuronet]

It was somewhat surprising to hear hints of attitude (“urgency“ etc.) problems - maybe not so much from Brady but more from guys like Solder and Gilmore. Gilmore mumbled about the lack of hunger: “Just gotta go out and play with a hungry attitude,” he said. “We’ve got to be hungry out there on the field. I don’t think we’ve done that as as team.”

Without hunger it is hard to win in this league no matter the roster or game plan. Bad game and the loss should make them hungrier in NO..

I think last year if Brady had screwed up and gotten a penalty on a TD play he would have been cussing himself out, not laughing. Remember they were winning by 22 points against Miami, but he failed to get the first down.

From now on this season, that's the Tom Brady we will be seeing. I guarantee it. Once again, the league will rue the day KC came into town.

 

[ViperGTS]

Quite frankly, when you give up 42 to a KC high school offense in ANY week in the NFL there is something catstrophic that went wrong. When you give up the most yards EVER to that said team is disgraceful. This is taking into account having faced those Peyton led Indy teams for years. That makes the performance even more depressing.

You have what should be a pair of studs at corner who excel in press man. Why then do you play off the ball, especially when you don't have the pass rush situation figured out? That's what KC did and did it effectively. Instead NE did the whole let them catch it and tackle them after they gained 8 yards.

This week will be very telling. If they play the same defense they did against KC they will get 50 dropped on them. Period. If they play the same DL in certain situations like they did against KC they are gonna get smoked again.

They need to man up, go press man for most of the game and see who prevails. If they don't it is not going to be pretty.

 

[ScottishPatriots]

The fact that Marsh was brought in and was playing meaningful snaps after a few days shows how mediocre some of the personnel is in the front 7 , i'm sure Bill can fix it and make it a workable defense but the lack of speed is linebacker is a massive problem and people aren't going to become faster.

If you could get a solid linebacker in a trade and a player or two on the dline improve over the season then you could have a decent defense but this has the secondary to be a very good defense and it's ceiling is way lower than that with the front 7 problems.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I think we can conclude the cause of death on this autopsy as "Not ready by regular season."

I don't know about "everybody is now slow and can't make a play," sounds strange, since the day before the game we had all these 19-0 calls and rhetorical "who can possibly beat us" questions, and posts about the embarrassment of riches at the CB position.

Hightower being out will mean next man up/do your job, to mix my patriots clichés.

We still picked up the talent we picked up. We've got 3 significant injuries - and we'll cope. We've got Cooks still gelling w/Brady, if you axe me. 'Dola and JE being out hurts (and we might not have noticed, but so is Mitchell). But Gronk, Cooks, Hogan, and the backs aren't all hurt. Would not be surprised to see some guys worked out this week. Thank whatever god you worship that we have Brady to hold it all together, not some wunderkind-of-the-future.

In terms of the defense, it might well be that BB will be "outcoached" regularly this year, and that this defense will miscommunicate and make mental errors habitually. I do not think that this is likely. Lastly it is also possible that this defense is just no good. Gilmore might be a very bad player, McCourty, Chung, Butler, they might all be very bad players when it comes down to it. The KC game might only have been the first game that exposes how they got by for last year on their respective teams, ACTING like good players, but deep down inside them, they are bad.

I do not think that this is the case.

We need to listen to ourselves sometimes, those of us who say this kind of stuff. The tools are there. I'll stand by my autopsy: not ready. That's worrisome enough. Call it a post SB let-down, that doesn't make me any more confident.

We looked bad Thursday. I have it on good authority, however, that you're never as good as your best game and you're not as bad as your worst, except in the case of the JETE, who are probably worse than their worst games some weeks.

 

[Bruins29]

Quite frankly, when you give up 42 to a KC high school offense in ANY week in the NFL there is something catstrophic that went wrong.

KC was the 13th best O last year. Sure, they are not elite but its not like Case Keenum shredded them. It was a bad performance by NE but lets not go overboard. They are going to get everyone's A game and Reid is probably the 2nd best coach in the league.

 

[JMC00]

The fact that Marsh was brought in and was playing meaningful snaps after a few days shows how mediocre some of the personnel is in the front 7

No it doesn't. It shows that the depth was not there at OLB in the scheme they were running.

Ninkovich retired
Rivers is out for the season
McClellin is on IR
Langi was out with a concussion


Those are all guys that would have been ahead of Richards and Marsh at OLB.

Then Hightower went out. When Hightower went out Pats were leading and then 2 drives later they gave up the Hunt 80 yard TD to Hightower's side.




Might have to go back to a 4-3 base

 

[maineman209]

I think we can conclude the cause of death on this autopsy as "Not ready by regular season."

I don't know about "everybody is now slow and can't make a play," sounds strange, since the day before the game we had all these 19-0 calls and rhetorical "who can possibly beat us" questions, and posts about the embarrassment of riches at the CB position.

Hightower being out will mean next man up/do your job, to mix my patriots clichés.

We still picked up the talent we picked up. We've got 3 significant injuries - and we'll cope. We've got Cooks still gelling w/Brady, if you axe me. 'Dola and JE being out hurts (and we might not have noticed, but so is Mitchell). But Gronk, Cooks, Hogan, and the backs aren't all hurt. Would not be surprised to see some guys worked out this week. Thank whatever god you worship that we have Brady to hold it all together, not some wunderkind-of-the-future.

In terms of the defense, it might well be that BB will be "outcoached" regularly this year, and that this defense will miscommunicate and make mental errors habitually. I do not think that this is likely. Lastly it is also possible that this defense is just no good. Gilmore might be a very bad player, McCourty, Chung, Butler, they might all be very bad players when it comes down to it. The KC game might only have been the first game that exposes how they got by for last year on their respective teams, ACTING like good players, but deep down inside them, they are bad.

I do not think that this is the case.

We need to listen to ourselves sometimes, those of us who say this kind of stuff. The tools are there. I'll stand by my autopsy: not ready. That's worrisome enough. Call it a post SB let-down, that doesn't make me any more confident.

We looked bad Thursday. I have it on good authority, however, that you're never as good as your best game and you're not as bad as your worst, except in the case of the JETE, who are probably worse than their worst games some weeks.

Agree with your results, doctor.

The last time I remember the Pats looking this "not ready for week-1" was the opener in 2014. And we all know how horribly THAT season ended.

For Seattle.

 

[mosi]

KC was the 13th best O last year. Sure, they are not elite but its not like Case Keenum shredded them. It was a bad performance by NE but lets not go overboard. They are going to get everyone's A game and Reid is probably the 2nd best coach in the league.

And honestly, I think the KC offense played to their strengths and used their speed to their advantage. That team has tons of offensive speed and use it. The Pats were supposed to be not sure hat happened. KC is going to be really good this year. They will crap their bed in the playoffs but they will be good in the regular season. I personally think the Pats will do what they always do, get much better as the season rolls on.

When the D wanted to actually tackle they looked good. When they stopped doing that and just tried to hit, they looked like crap.

 

[long distance]

Quite frankly, when you give up 42 to a KC high school offense ...

Yes, let's give no credit to NE opponents. Its not like they're working hard to do the best job they can..

I probably shouldn't bother . and I won't..

Ill just add this nice quote from Dussault:

One point that’s very much worth pointing out is how effective Kansas City was at exploiting the communication issues on defense. Eric Mangini said when he was with the Browns, a big offensive focus for going against the Patriots was having multiple shifts and motions that forced the Patriots to adjust their calls. He called the Patriots defense “rule-based” so every movement by the offense required 11 adjustment calls on defense. The more movement the more chance at miscommunication, and the Chiefs seemed to do that repeatedly.
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BTW - i recommend both Mike's articles on D - incl. film review:
Patriots Defensive Focus: Winning First Down
Patriots-Chiefs Film Review: Defense Edition

 

[RobertWeathers]

My god...

So many new players.

Some will be coming back from IR around the bye

It takes time.

I'm saying it right now.

This team will not lose a game after Thanksgiving.

12-4.

..and yes, it means they will be 6-4.

 

[captain stone]

This defense is not "full" of bad players.

But they do have some bad players on it.