Contracts to deal with

Ivan said:

Not sure why so many want the Patriots interior defensive line to suck. Wilfork is the only really good player on that unit and they have no replacement for him. If they can't restructure they need to pay him.

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I disagree. I don't think Wilfork is that good anymore. He can't push the pocket like he used too, and he can't create the separation from the OL that he used too. If it stands between Wilfork for almost $8M and Siliga for about $1M then I think we are a better team with Siliga because he isn't that far behind Vince. I still think Vince is good. But he's really not $8M for a DT good.

That must be why he played over 75%of the snaps Despite being in sub packages most of the time. Because he's not very good.

When will the NFL officially announce the cap?

Seems like that's a critical piece of the thinking this year.

Marinlik said:

If it stands between Wilfork for almost $8M and Siliga for about $1M then I think we are a better team with Siliga because he isn't that far behind Vince. I still think Vince is good. But he's really not $8M for a DT good.

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I agree that Wilfork is not $8M good, but I disagree that Siliga isn't that far behind. He was very
unimpressive in the SB.

Wilfork is hard to replace. Not impossible, but there's only a handful of players like him in a decade, and he's the best of them. He already restructured his contract to take less after the achilles injury, and he's done a lot for this team. He let us play the 3-4. He's been a leader in and out of the locker room. I want to keep him. Let Belichick and the executives figure out what we can pay big Vince.

I wasn't sold on Revis when we signed him, but the Revis effect on our defense was huge. I hope he'll relent and sign a reasonable contract with us that he sticks to. I wonder how long he can keep up the hired ronin act, signing short term deals for huge money. He must be thinking long term contracts now that he's turning 30 and coming off a Super Bowl win, right?

FreeTedWilliams said:

I don't think either Vince or Mayo play next year on their current contracts, I think we can all agree on that point.

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I don't think that we can all agree on this point.

Regarding Mayo, $4.5M of Mayo's salary is guaranteed for injury. He has no reason to take a pay cut beyond moving the rest ($1.75M) to NLTBE incentives which won't affect total compensation. There are least some folks think that a 29 year old Mayo is worth what we pay him and that he is likely to be worth this for the rest of his contract.

There is no consensus on the value of Wilfork. As always, there are posters who think that every veteran over 30 can be replaced by a rookie. There are certainly some who want to pay him, and think that it is delusional not to have noticed how well he has played in over 70% of the defensive reps. If anything this is considerably too many reps for a NT.

Finally, the cap need is in 2016 when we need to deal with Collins and Hightower. Even then, the first year of their new deals doesn't figure to be huge. So, we may be able to pay Wilfork and Mayo, even though next year.
==========
So, NO, everyone doesn't agree that two of our top players should be be given the choice of the road or a pay cut.

Some folks aren't interested in cutting Wilfork and Mayo and making 2015 a re-building year. They would rather have the front seven improve with the addition of a healthy Mayo, a healthy Easley, and another highly drafted defensive lineman.

I have done this a few times but it is looking more and more like Amendola is gone.

With that in mind and being 5m over. The numbers will be for only this cap year.

Wilfork - restructure - (5.5m) save 3.5m
Mayo - restructure - (7M) save 3m
Revis - extend - (14m) save 11m
Amendola - cut - save 3.5m
Solder - extend (5m) save 2m
Vollmer - extend (6m) save 1.5m
Browner - extend (3.7) save 1m
Dennard - cut - save 1m
T. Wilson - restructure - save 1m

All these added together save you 29.5m - 5m = 24.5m to play with.

With this.

Sign McCourty 6m
Sign Gost 3m
Sign Connolly 2.5m
Sign Ayers 2.5m
Sign Nicks or Royal 2m
Sign Develin/Siliga/White/Other low price guys and STers 1m


With these moves your roster is pre draft

QB - 2 - Brady Garo
TE - 3 - Gronk Hooman Wright
WR - 5 - Edelman Lafell Royal Dobson Slater
RB - 4 - Blount White Develin Bolden
OL - 9 - Solder Connolly Stork Wendell Vollmer Flemming Cannon Kline Devey

DE - 4 -Jones Nink Ayers Moore
DT - 4 - Wilfork Siliga Jones Easley
LB - 5 - Mayo Hightower Collins Flemming White
CB - 5 - Revis Browner Arrington Butler Ryan
S - 5 - McCourty Chung Harmon Wilson Ebner


So a few spots you can fill and upgrade here. Particularly RB, G, DT, OLB/DE.

BobDigital said:

I have done this a few times but it is looking more and more like Amendola is gone.

With that in mind and being 5m over. This numbers will lost only this cap year.

Wilfork - restructure - (5.5m) save 3.5m
Mayo - restructure - (7M) save 3m
Revis - extend - (14m) save 11m
Amendola - cut - save 3.5m
Solder - extend (5m) save 2m
Vollmer - extend (6m) save 1.5m
Browner - extend (3.7) save 1m
Dennard - cut - save 1m
T. Wilson - restructure - save 1m

All these added together save you 29.5m - 5m = 24.5m to play with.

With this.

Sign McCourty 6m
Sign Gost 3m
Sign Connolly 2.5m
Sign Ayers 2.5m
Sign Nicks or Royal 2m
Sign Develin/Siliga/White/Other low price guys and STers 1m


With these moves your roster is pre draft

QB - 2 - Brady Garo
TE - 3 - Gronk Hooman Wright
WR - 5 - Edelman Lafell Royal Dobson Slater
RB - 4 - Blount White Develin Bolden
OL - 9 - Solder Connolly Stork Wendell Vollmer Flemming Cannon Kline Devey

DE - 4 -Jones Nink Ayers Moore
DT - 4 - Wilfork Siliga Jones Easley
LB - 5 - Mayo Hightower Collins Flemming White
CB - 5 - Revis Browner Arrington Butler Ryan
S - 5 - McCourty Chung Harmon Wilson Ebner


So a few spots you can fill and upgrade here. Particularly RB, G, DT, OLB/DE.

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YOUR PLAN
All are fine, presuming that the players want to sign. I would make a couple of tweaks. I would keep Cassilas at $1.5M and Ridley at $1M instead of Ayers at $2.5M. I don't think that Ayers will come at $2.5M, especially to be have a minor role which he'll have here. Casillas is a top special teamer.

PRE-DRAFT ROSTER
Your roster pre-draft might include the following. I added Casillas and Ridley in place of Ayers. I also added Dennard.
DE Buchanan
LB Casillas
DT Vellano (a placeholder until at DT is drafted; Branch would be a better choice)
WR Tyms, Boyce
RB Gray, Gaffney, Ridley, Lewis
CB Dennard (there is no real reason to cut him so early)

NEEDED UPGRADES
I agree with all of them. I would note that adding Ridley, Gray, Gaffney and Lewis to the pre-draft roster reduces the pressure on the RB position.

mgteich said:

I don't think that we can all agree on this point.

Regarding Mayo, $4.5M of Mayo's salary is guaranteed for injury. He has no reason to take a pay cut beyond moving the rest ($1.75M) to NLTBE incentives which won't affect total compensation. There are least some folks think that a 29 year old Mayo is worth what we pay him and that he is likely to be worth this for the rest of his contract.

There is no consensus on the value of Wilfork. As always, there are posters who think that every veteran over 30 can be replaced by a rookie. There are certainly some who want to pay him, and think that it is delusional not to have noticed how well he has played in over 70% of the defensive reps. If anything this is considerably too many reps for a NT.

Finally, the cap need is in 2016 when we need to deal with Collins and Hightower. Even then, the first year of their new deals doesn't figure to be huge. So, we may be able to pay Wilfork and Mayo, even though next year.
==========
So, NO, everyone doesn't agree that two of our top players should be be given the choice of the road or a pay cut.

Some folks aren't interested in cutting Wilfork and Mayo and making 2015 a re-building year. They would rather have the front seven improve with the addition of a healthy Mayo, a healthy Easley, and another highly drafted defensive lineman.

Click to expand...

I agree. I understand the desire to see Wilfork and Mayo and Amendola restructure, and I think that Mayo and Amendola will do so. Wilfork is another story because Wilfork had to wait out a 6 year rookie deal when he was one of the most dominant players in the game, and despite his desire to play out his 2nd deal he agreed to an incentive laden deal that required he prove himself to get paid, and now that he has done that people want to claim he is overpaid despite the fact that he had to go out and earn every bit of it, which he did. And he did it in the most unlikely way imo, as the Patriots are no longer a 3-4 base team where Wilfork stays at NT, they are a sub package based defense and WIlfork had to play every,position,on the line as well as part of 2 man fronts, and did so with flying colors. There are very few players who can do everything he can do as it requires both the size and ability to almost always command double teams as well as the athleticism and experience to play every position on the line. Additionally he is as good a leader and calming presence on the sideline as you are going to find. He was absolutely integral to their Championship run this season and while I can see wanting some cap relief the claims that he is just a jag and can be easily replaced are downright idiotic.

We will see where the Patriots stand very soon as he has a big bonus due in 3 weeks. I think they will ask for a restructure but live with the deal if he won't budge, I don't believe Belichick will release him because he values toughness, experience, leadership, and versatility,and Wilfork has all those qualities in spades.

I have no problem with those who want him to redo his deal to give them some cap relief, but those calling him average,or a jag are really talking out of their asses. He's still one of their best players, and was a big reason they added a fourth ring.

I don't see,McCourty signing for less than 7 a year. If they can get him for 4-30 with 20,guaranteed they will have gotten a deal imo.

I wonder how these guys actually think about free agency. And how much commonality vs individuality there is between them.

There seems to be a clear advantage to playing in NE, if winning and excellence and professionalism are important to you. For some players, that's going to be worth a reduced contract.

On the other hand, money banked during a short career is money that is able to extend family security even farther down the generations, or farther out into family branches. If a Pats' free agent can bank $3M over the course of his next contract by signing elsewhere, can he provide education etc. to great grandchildren rather than just to grandchildren, for example. Can you really imagine looking at your kids' kids in four decades and saying, "Sorry, i can't help you with college tuition because for four years of my life, I preferred to play for one team over another because it was more satisfying to me." That strikes me as profoundly selfish.

But I wonder how many of them think that way, and how many agents encourage them to think that way.

In the meantime, as a fan, I want these guys to want to play for the Pats, even if it isn't the most lucrative place to play. Which makes me an accomplice in the selfishness.

betterthanthealternative said:

I wonder how these guys actually think about free agency. And how much commonality vs individuality there is between them.

There seems to be a clear advantage to playing in NE, if winning and excellence and professionalism are important to you. For some players, that's going to be worth a reduced contract.

On the other hand, money banked during a short career is money that is able to extend family security even farther down the generations, or farther out into family branches. If a Pats' free agent can bank $3M over the course of his next contract by signing elsewhere, can he provide education etc. to great grandchildren rather than just to grandchildren, for example. Can you really imagine looking at your kids' kids in four decades and saying, "Sorry, i can't help you with college tuition because for four years of my life, I preferred to play for one team over another because it was more satisfying to me." That strikes me as profoundly selfish.

But I wonder how many of them think that way, and how many agents encourage them to think that way.

In the meantime, as a fan, I want these guys to want to play for the Pats, even if it isn't the most lucrative place to play. Which makes me an accomplice in the selfishness.

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Let's be clear, players play for the money. And yes, some players are willing to accept a bit less from playoff quality teams. In my memory, only two players have given the patriots significant discounts: Bruschi and Brady.

Also Matt Light maybe. Otherwise the point remains valid that hometown discounts are the exception,
not the rule.

Hopefully Wilfork will redo his...again.
Sign Revis
Franchise Mccourty
Keep Ayers+Butler

mgteich said:

Let's be clear, players play for the money. And yes, some players are willing to accept a bit less from playoff quality teams. In my memory, only two players have given the patriots significant discounts: Bruschi and Brady.

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What kind of cut-off do you have in mind for "significant"?

Brady_to_Moss said:

Hopefully Wilfork will redo his...again.
Sign Revis
Franchise Mccourty
Keep Ayers+Butler

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I do not know if he will accept what he is worth at this point and reworking his deal last time was such a challenge, I don't know if he will be willing to do it again

betterthanthealternative said:

On the other hand, money banked during a short career is money that is able to extend family security even farther down the generations, or farther out into family branches. If a Pats' free agent can bank $3M over the course of his next contract by signing elsewhere, can he provide education etc. to great grandchildren rather than just to grandchildren, for example. Can you really imagine looking at your kids' kids in four decades and saying, "Sorry, i can't help you with college tuition because for four years of my life, I preferred to play for one team over another because it was more satisfying to me." That strikes me as profoundly selfish.

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OTOH, let's take a concrete example: do you think Logan Mankins will ever have a day in his life where he doesn't wonder "What if?" How much is that worth?

And don't forget that, in at least some cases, having the words "Super Bowl winner" on your résumé can mean more money in the long run (from appearance fees, ads, etc.)

Brady_to_Moss said:

Keep Ayers+Butler

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Why do people keep bringing up Malcolm Butler? What am I missing here? I could've sworn that he was an UDFA on his first year. He would be a restricted free agent in spring 2017 and an unrestricted free agent in 2018 if kept. Are you speaking of another Butler?

As far as Ayers goes, I just can't see how we'd bring him back in a rotational role. He'll likely want to start somewhere, not to mention the money aspect. Lots of "important" starting players before we get to a rotational guy who received 30 snaps in the entire postseason. We just don't have the funds to keep a guy like that in my opinion. Much larger fish to fry.

captain stone said:

I agree that Wilfork is not $8M good, but I disagree that Siliga isn't that far behind. He was very
unimpressive in the SB.

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I agree. Siliga is a nice option for depth, and a guy who has shown some flashes at times. He's another cheap, big body for the trenches. Maybe he'll progress, and maybe he won't. The good thing is that they'll likely give him another year to try and carve a niche.

Any comparison whatsoever to Vince Wilfork is just silly, though.

supafly said:

I agree. Siliga is a nice option for depth, and a guy who has shown some flashes at times. He's another cheap, big body for the trenches. Maybe he'll progress, and maybe he won't. The good thing is that they'll likely give him another year to try and carve a niche.

Any comparison whatsoever to Vince Wilfork is just silly, though.

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Siliga has played more snaps than anyone except Wilfork whenever he has been healthy. That would make him a "starter" not an "depth option".
He had beaten out players such as tommy Kelly, branch and Chris jones.