Welker: "Asante chose money over championships"

condon84 said:

Asante was a huge reason why the Eagles just won a playoff game. He was brought in to do exactly what he just did. So far, he's been worth the contract. Put it this way, Asante has been worth his contract much more that Adalius even before AD missed time with injury.

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Really? You think that Asante's 4 ints all season justify his contract more than Adalius playing 3 different positions in 2 years for the Patriots?

I'd love to hear your detailed explanation of this one...

BoTown said:

Hobbs got abused both in last year's SB, and the previous year's AFC CG against the Colts. He gives a great effort for somebody his size, but I see him as a weakness, even if he is the best CB on the team by default.

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Hobbs didn't get abused in the AFCCG against the Colts unless you mean the Refs making up penalties that didn't happen as being abusive.

Hobbs was injured during last year's SB. He had sports hernia and I think a seperated shoulder. But, he was still out there playing because the Pats needed him.

Let me ask you this. If Samuel is so good, why wasn't he the one covering Buress all game? Why was Samuel covering David Tyree or Amani Toomer?

DaBruinz said:

Hobbs didn't get abused in the AFCCG against the Colts unless you mean the Refs making up penalties that didn't happen as being abusive.

Hobbs was injured during last year's SB. He had sports hernia and I think a seperated shoulder. But, he was still out there playing because the Pats needed him.

Let me ask you this. If Samuel is so good, why wasn't he the one covering Buress all game? Why was Samuel covering David Tyree or Amani Toomer?

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The Eagles have also played some ***** teams this year...

Lowly Rams

Mediocre Bears

Foreskins 2 X's

Whiners before Nolan was fired

Seachickens w/ Seneca Wallace

They TIED the lowly Bungals

Cards who can't play on the East Coast

2nd Giants game when the Burress incident happened, and Antonio Pierce was dragged into this mess the week prior

Clowns w/ Ken Dorsey

2nd Dallas game where the Boys quit on Wade and mailed it in

Queens in the playoffs

OK - they beat a very good Falcons team, but the Ravens, whom they lost to, have a mediocre offense. They also got lit up by Dallas early in the year when they were on a roll.

DaBruinz said:

So, because he has 3 Ints for TDs in 14 games, you think that is better than 2 Ints for TDs in 4 games?

This is another of those WORTHLESS "records" and in now way justifies him having received the money that he did. Teams didn't say to themselves, "OH, we're playing Asante Samuel and the Pats. We have to plan on only using half the field ." Teams kept right on throwing at Samuel. And with good reason. For as often as he made a play, he just as often allowed a reception and those receptions tended to end up as big plays against the Pats.

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He got the money he deserved because he put together back to back huge season which included clutch post season play. I didn't say the Patriots should have signed him for the money the Eagles paid but get over it, the guy can play. Interception returns for TDs in not a useless stat, these are game changers that are made by play makers.

As far as the Superbowl he wasn't on Burress because a smart team rarely plays its best corner on the opponents top WR. They put their best corner against the other team's 2nd WR and then place the #2 corner and a Safety to match up against the #1 WR. I think we all know what happened when the Pats took away Hobbs' security blanket and left him 1:1 against Burress.

cstjohn17 said:

He got the money he deserved because he put together back to back huge season which included clutch post season play. I didn't say the Patriots should have signed him for the money the Eagles paid but get over it, the guy can play. Interception returns for TDs in not a useless stat, these are game changers that are made by play makers.

As far as the Superbowl he wasn't on Burress because a smart team rarely plays its best corner on the opponents top WR. They put their best corner against the other team's 2nd WR and then place the #2 corner and a Safety to match up against the #1 WR. I think we all know what happened when the Pats took away Hobbs' security blanket and left him 1:1 against Burress.

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I can tell you that Samuel has 0 chance at ever stopping Burress 1 on 1 in man coverage... EVER. There is a very good reason Samuel was almost never assigned man coverage while on the Patriots (except early on in his career, until they realized where his skills/flaws were). And the reason isn't because he's a #1 CB.

EDIT: Samuel is a faster/better version of Deltha O'Neal... THERE I SAID IT!

emoney_33 said:

I can tell you that Samuel has 0 chance at ever stopping Burress 1 on 1 in man coverage... EVER. There is a very good reason Samuel was almost never assigned man coverage while on the Patriots (except early on in his career, until they realized where his skills/flaws were). And the reason isn't because he's a #1 CB.

EDIT: Samuel is a faster/better version of Deltha O'Neal... THERE I SAID IT!

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Did anyone say match Samuel 1:1 against Burress? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

All I see is a bunch of haters blinded by laundry.

The guy can play. Maybe he will never be as good as Delta O'Neal, Lewis Sanders, Duane Starks or even Hank Poteat but he is younger and may sometime reach the pinnacle.

cstjohn17 said:

i think we all know what happened when the pats took away hobbs' security blanket and left him 1:1 against burress.

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cstjohn17 said:

did anyone say match samuel 1:1 against burress? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.

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1010101010

cstjohn17 said:

He got the money he deserved because he put together back to back huge season which included clutch post season play. I didn't say the Patriots should have signed him for the money the Eagles paid but get over it, the guy can play. Interception returns for TDs in not a useless stat, these are game changers that are made by play makers.

As far as the Superbowl he wasn't on Burress because a smart team rarely plays its best corner on the opponents top WR. They put their best corner against the other team's 2nd WR and then place the #2 corner and a Safety to match up against the #1 WR. I think we all know what happened when the Pats took away Hobbs' security blanket and left him 1:1 against Burress.

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Samuel got his money. Its clearly debatable as to whether or not he deserved it.

Its also questionable as to how clutch Samuel's post season play is. One could say its not more clutch than that of Ty Poole's. Samuel blew 2 coverages, both of which eventually led to TDs by the Giants. And, on the same drive in which he blew a coverage, he dropped an interception that would have ended the game.

I happen to disagree with your assessment of how teams typically handle the opposing's #1 receiver. Most teams will put their #1 CB on the #1 receiver when the drop off between the #1 and #2 receiver is considerable. When an opposing team is like the Patriots and you can't do that, then, yes, opposing teams will put their #2 corner and a safety on the top receiver and put the #1 corner on the #2 receiver. Given that Hobbs was injured and the clear size advantage that Burress on a short route like that, it would make more sense to put Samuel on Burress and Hobbs on Tyree/Toomer?

Samuel wasn't on Burress because he can't handle the physicality of the opposing receivers and doesn't have the make-up speed that Hobbs does should he get bumped off.

DaBruinz said:

Samuel got his money. Its clearly debatable as to whether or not he deserved it.

Its also questionable as to how clutch Samuel's post season play is. One could say its not more clutch than that of Ty Poole's. Samuel blew 2 coverages, both of which eventually led to TDs by the Giants. And, on the same drive in which he blew a coverage, he dropped an interception that would have ended the game.

I happen to disagree with your assessment of how teams typically handle the opposing's #1 receiver. Most teams will put their #1 CB on the #1 receiver when the drop off between the #1 and #2 receiver is considerable. When an opposing team is like the Patriots and you can't do that, then, yes, opposing teams will put their #2 corner and a safety on the top receiver and put the #1 corner on the #2 receiver. Given that Hobbs was injured and the clear size advantage that Burress on a short route like that, it would make more sense to put Samuel on Burress and Hobbs on Tyree/Toomer?

Samuel wasn't on Burress because he can't handle the physicality of the opposing receivers and doesn't have the make-up speed that Hobbs does should he get bumped off.

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Lets agree to disagree.

The Superbowl was not Samuel's best game but Harrison and Merriweather also had chances at INTs, Green could not bring Manning, Woods couldn't fall on a fumble, BB didn't kick a field goal, Poole was torched by Steve Smith in the SB etc., etc. etc.

For the #1CB, WR stuff... I base my case on the Cowboys versus 49ers, Deion Sanders (pretty good corner) play against Taylor not Rice. Jimmy Johnson was not stupid enough to put even a HOF CB on an island against a GOAT.

cstjohn17 said:

Lets agree to disagree.

The Superbowl was not Samuel's best game but Harrison and Merriweather also had chances at INTs, Green could not bring Manning, Woods couldn't fall on a fumble, BB didn't kick a field goal, Poole was torched by Steve Smith in the SB etc., etc. etc.

For the #1CB, WR stuff... I base my case on the Cowboys versus 49ers, Deion Sanders (pretty good corner) play against Taylor not Rice. Jimmy Johnson was not stupid enough to put even a HOF CB on an island against a GOAT.

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Burress ~ RICE ?

cstjohn17 said:

Lets agree to disagree.

The Superbowl was not Samuel's best game but Harrison and Merriweather also had chances at INTs, Green could not bring Manning, Woods couldn't fall on a fumble, BB didn't kick a field goal, Poole was torched by Steve Smith in the SB etc., etc. etc.

For the #1CB, WR stuff... I base my case on the Cowboys versus 49ers, Deion Sanders (pretty good corner) play against Taylor not Rice. Jimmy Johnson was not stupid enough to put even a HOF CB on an island against a GOAT.

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The smart money tells you that when you are going up against 2 quality receivers and you have 3 quality defenders, you would generally put your best defender on the lesser receiver and your 2nd and 3rd best defenders on the better receiver. New England, however, doesn't rotate the defensive backs the same way that so many other teams do. Samuel was almost exclusively on the defensive left, leaving Hobbs on the defensive right. This was fine because, despite what far too many people here are positive the've seen, the data on both Hobbs and Samuel indicates that they were playing at about the same level.

Deus Irae said:

The smart money tells you that when you are going up against 2 quality receivers and you have 3 quality defenders, you would generally put your best defender on the lesser receiver and your 2nd and 3rd best defenders on the better receiver. New England, however, doesn't rotate the defensive backs the same way that so many other teams do. Samuel was almost exclusively on the defensive left, leaving Hobbs on the defensive right. This was fine because, despite what far too many people here are positive the've seen, the data on both Hobbs and Samuel indicates that they were playing at about the same level.

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All stats lie but some are useful... I have been looking for a chance to use that one in to a discussion.

Hobbs gets killed by a lot of posters, I am not one of them. I think he is an average or above average NFL starter which is pretty damn good. Plus he is tough and adds value as a kick returner.

cstjohn17 said:

All stats lie but some are useful... I have been looking for a chance to through that one in to a discussion.

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Stats cannot possibly lie for they are facts. The lies come from humans misinterpreting what the facts actually mean.

cstjohn17 said:

Lets agree to disagree.

The Superbowl was not Samuel's best game but Harrison and Merriweather also had chances at INTs, Green could not bring Manning, Woods couldn't fall on a fumble, BB didn't kick a field goal, Poole was torched by Steve Smith in the SB etc., etc. etc.

For the #1CB, WR stuff... I base my case on the Cowboys versus 49ers, Deion Sanders (pretty good corner) play against Taylor not Rice. Jimmy Johnson was not stupid enough to put even a HOF CB on an island against a GOAT.

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Huh? Deion never played for Jimmy-when he signed with Dallas, the Cowboys never played the Niners in the playoffs. The last time they squared off in the postseason, Deion was wearing a Niners uniform.

BTW-Deion was HUGELY overrated. Yeah-he had loads of speeds, couldn't beat him deep, and jumps routes very effectively. But he was VERY vulnerable to those inside slant routes. Once he started getting exposed, teams continued to pick on this weakness. He was also a poor tackler.

cstjohn17 said:

Lets agree to disagree.

The Superbowl was not Samuel's best game but Harrison and Merriweather also had chances at INTs, Green could not bring Manning, Woods couldn't fall on a fumble, BB didn't kick a field goal, Poole was torched by Steve Smith in the SB etc., etc. etc.

For the #1CB, WR stuff... I base my case on the Cowboys versus 49ers, Deion Sanders (pretty good corner) play against Taylor not Rice. Jimmy Johnson was not stupid enough to put even a HOF CB on an island against a GOAT.

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So, you base your assumption about the CBs vs. WRs on a situation that happened between 2 teams and 15 years ago? And you don't take into account other relevant factors like the ones I mentioned?

condon84 said:

Another play that makes me cringe is Hobbs getting burned to a crisp by Burress with the game winning TD. All year long, Hobbs got picked on by opposing teams and I feared that something like that was going to happen in the biggest moment, and when it did, it freaking sucked. That TD pass wasn't even competitive. How this guy still gets defended on this board for the past 4 years of mediocre play is mind boggling. Whatever.

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Sorry, have to disagree. Dude plays hurt, plays great on special teams, does a decent job as a DB and is a team guy. He was playing hurt that night too. BB must have confidence in him too, I can't argue with BB on who he thinks is the best player to play on his defense. Hobbs is one of the players on the Patriots I really admire, this despite the fact he stomped on the Bolt after the Patriot upset in '06. I didn't like it when the Chargers stomped the "Terrible Towel" in '94 and I didn't like it when Hobbs, among others, stomped on the bolt in '06. Guy has earned my respect since then though.

Welker would not of made those comments if the entire organization did not feel the same way. I think Assante botched those last few plays because he was thinking more of dollar signs instead of finishing off the game and lets not forget he signed with philly before free agency started, not giving the Patriots a chance to match the offer, he could not wait to leave the Patriots and give BB the big F. U. I say F him.

I just watched the catch again for the first time since that game and Samuel could have broken it up if he didn't pull up. By the way, not only was Eli in the grasp, there were at least 4 holds that weren't called, the officials were in the bag on that drive.

Im sure you all know this, but I've avoided the subject

PatsSox363804 said:

I just watched the catch again for the first time since that game and Samuel could have ...

Im sure you all know this, but I've avoided the subject

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That is a nightmare I will NEVER watch again, so I offer no opinion.

DisgruntledTunaFan said:

Huh? Deion never played for Jimmy-when he signed with Dallas, the Cowboys never played the Niners in the playoffs. The last time they squared off in the postseason, Deion was wearing a Niners uniform.

BTW-Deion was HUGELY overrated. Yeah-he had loads of speeds, couldn't beat him deep, and jumps routes very effectively. But he was VERY vulnerable to those inside slant routes. Once he started getting exposed, teams continued to pick on this weakness. He was also a poor tackler.

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As Curt Shilling said "I believe it when I say it but that doesn't mean it is true"... Maybe it was Deion versus Irving, in either case playing your #1 CB against the #2 WR makes a lot of sense. You can protect the #2 CB with a Safety and / or roll coverage towards the #1 WR. You can also pick your spots to play the #1 CB 1:1 versus the #2 WR to blitz or double cover a slot WR / TE.

It all makes sense to me, even if it is not grounded in reality.