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2008 Defense Needs Lost Of Work


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The # 1 way this defense can improve would be a healthy Richard Seymour - he has been no where near the dominating DL for two years now. Having him back at full strength helps out Tiny, Wilfork & the LB'ers shooting those gaps that are occupied as well as they should be. At the very least, a healthy RS ties up two blockers AND he still makes his share of plays. People forget just how good this guy really is.

Now, add to the mix a healthy Colvin & Hobbs (he was really beat up in the playoffs - groin & hernia).

Continue to show me the development of Meriwether & Adalius in this defense.

Hope to see Lua & Richardson have an impact.

Count on some new faces from the draft & Free agency.

Let BB work with all of the above and you will see a defense that dominates once again.

All the pieces are there (or will be) - we just need a little luck and a lot of hard work.
 
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While we can all agree that the LB's need to be revamped, I will go out on a limb and say that the D-Line needs to be adressed. They are SLOW! They always seem to be a step to late when getting after the QB. I understand that 3-4 ends don't get many sacks but I hardly ever saw them put any type of pressure on the QB.

Secondary needs to be revamped as well. I'm looking for at least 3 new starters in the secondary and two new starters at LB.

That was something I noticed when I was at the Chargers game. By the time Rivers had taken one step back, the OL already had pushed the DL back a yard. No push at all from the DL.
 
I really would like to see the dline wrap up the qb when hes got him...i feel like too many times this season we've had the chance to bring down the qb only to have that very immobile qb look like vince young or micheal vick and escape the pocket. please give me a dline that brings the qb down when they have him in grasp! nothing more heartbreaking than seeing that qb break free and complete a 30 yarder...:bricks:
 
d line is fine, Seymour is or has been injured for 2 years we all hope that is the case anyway. I think we need ILB help and a solid OLB speedster like colvin to put pressure on qb. I love colvin and hate to say it but he is always getting hurt and we are paying him big bucks to play full time, so he needs to restructure so we can keep him and get a viable speed rusher for that olb rotation.
 
d line is fine, Seymour is or has been injured for 2 years we all hope that is the case anyway. I think we need ILB help and a solid OLB speedster like colvin to put pressure on qb. I love colvin and hate to say it but he is always getting hurt and we are paying him big bucks to play full time, so he needs to restructure so we can keep him and get a viable speed rusher for that olb rotation.

am i missing something? how is he always getting hurt?

he had the hip problem and this foot problem
 
Hey, it's almost time for my annual question about potentially switching to a base 4-3 and get flamed to hell for it!
 
We have an entire offseason to fix the defenive backfield. It may be difficult to bring this defense to last year's levels, but certainly not impossible.

I have presumed to re-signing of RFA's Wright and Moore. For now, I will also assume that Bruschi, Seau and Chad Scott are signed. They could retire or be cut later, but for now this seems a good starting place. It's a given that we'll work out the WR situation. There are many good options.

However, the focus of the offseason must be on the defensive backfield.

I have the same concern at LB that I do every year. And every year, bb and pioli bring in the needed free agents (the exception being when Bruschi, Phifer and Johnson all were unavailable for the season). I do expect Colvin to restructure. If not, he'll play another year. One of Bruschi and Seau should return. If one leaves, a veteran will replace him. I do hope for a future 1st round OLB. We might get a top free agent instead.

DE - 4 Warren, Green, Seymour, WRIGHT
DT - 4 Wilfork, Le Kevin Smith, Santonio Thomas, MOORE
LB - 8 Vrabel, Colvin, Adalius Thomas, BRUSCHI, SEAU
Woods, Alexander, Lua
CB - 4 Hobbs, Spann, Richardson, SCOTT
S - 5 Sanders, Harrison, Meriweather, Andrews/MITCHELL, Ventrone
Like you I believe the emphasis should be on the defensive backfield.
When Asante leaves, he will leave a gaping hole. Gay had an awful year.
If they re-sign him, it will be out of desperation. At best, Hobbs is an
adequate cornerback. I expect the Pats will have to rely on the draft
to refurbish the cornerback position. The top couple of cornerbacks in
free agency will be too expensive and the rest mediocre.
At linebacker, pigs will be flying in V formation over Foxboro before
Bill Belichick invests a first day pick on a linebacker. He has not done
so for 8 years. He will pick up a veteran linebacker and draft a rookie
linebacker in the later rounds. I expect Chad Brown to reappear on
the roster sometime during the season.
 
I think they should just revamp the defense. I've gone back and forth on Seau and Brushi. We need to become a faster and pressure oriente defense where we can send blitzes from every angle. We need an additional stud OLB and I think AD should go back in the middle as he's 270 and should be able to take on guards. I'd like to see a FA ILB come in to add depth and speed to ILB. I think Vrabel should move inside.

So then we have OLB- Draft pick/Colvin/Woods
ILB- AD, Free Agent, Vrabel

Vrabel can move inside and out to give flexibility.

Resign Gay, Wilson(since his stock is low now, unless someone pays him).

We need to become a pressure fast defense.

Defense wins championships.

Belichick may be thinking as you do. Last off-season, BB went out and revamped the offense making the offense more field-turf friendly. Hopefully, he will similarly revamp the defense make the defense more field-turf friendly; in other words, a speed defense. Such a change would require a distinct shift in philosophy, from size and toughness to speed.
 
While we can all agree that the LB's need to be revamped, I will go out on a limb and say that the D-Line needs to be adressed. They are SLOW! They always seem to be a step to late when getting after the QB. I understand that 3-4 ends don't get many sacks but I hardly ever saw them put any type of pressure on the QB.

Secondary needs to be revamped as well. I'm looking for at least 3 new starters in the secondary and two new starters at LB.

The linebackers are the pass rushers in a 3-4.
 
There is no possible way for the transition from the current style of defense for the defense to become the best 2 minute defense in the NFL. That would basically require a complete defensive overhaul.

They could have 7 DBs on the field on that Giants drive and the Giants would have had success passing.
 
Has anyone discussed Joel Collier yet? I know that BB has 100% faith and trust in his coaches, but is it possible he's part of the problem back there?
 
Hey, it's almost time for my annual question about potentially switching to a base 4-3 and get flamed to hell for it!

Bill Belichick has had his success with the 3-4 and will probably never
change from it on a permanent basis. Having said this, I think switching
to the 4-3 would have some merit. For so long as The Pats continue
using the 3-4, they will have trouble obtaining suitable linebackers. Most
college and NFL teams don't play the 3-4. This severely limits the
pool of linebackers who can play the Pats system. In addition, the
Pats now have Romeo Crenell, Bill Parcells, and Eric Mangini competing
for linebackers who might be able to play 3-4. I suspect that switching
would not be that easy since it probably requires the use of smaller,
faster defensive ends.
 
We could draft a DE on the first round, one who would be expected to a OLB for the patriots.

Like you I believe the emphasis should be on the defensive backfield.
When Asante leaves, he will leave a gaping hole. Gay had an awful year.
If they re-sign him, it will be out of desperation. At best, Hobbs is an
adequate cornerback. I expect the Pats will have to rely on the draft
to refurbish the cornerback position. The top couple of cornerbacks in
free agency will be too expensive and the rest mediocre.
At linebacker, pigs will be flying in V formation over Foxboro before
Bill Belichick invests a first day pick on a linebacker. He has not done
so for 8 years. He will pick up a veteran linebacker and draft a rookie
linebacker in the later rounds. I expect Chad Brown to reappear on
the roster sometime during the season.
 
We could draft a DE on the first round, one who would be expected to a OLB for the patriots.

After what happened to Justin Rodgers last year, I don't know if

Bill Belichick has the patience to wait for a college defensive end

to develop into an outside linebacker. The Pats would have to wait a

year or so for the player to develop. Management seems to prefer

players who can contribute immediately even if they are over the hill.
 
There are plenty of room on the roster for both a developmental DE and a couple of veterans, depending on decisions by Seau and Bruschi.

After what happened to Justin Rodgers last year, I don't know if

Bill Belichick has the patience to wait for a college defensive end

to develop into an outside linebacker. The Pats would have to wait a

year or so for the player to develop. Management seems to prefer

players who can contribute immediately even if they are over the hill.
 
Has anyone discussed Joel Collier yet? I know that BB has 100% faith and trust in his coaches, but is it possible he's part of the problem back there?

I'd have to agree with that since Mangini worked wonders with backups.
 
I'm not sure that Long, Gholston or Groves would take a year to develop.

After what happened to Justin Rodgers last year, I don't know if

Bill Belichick has the patience to wait for a college defensive end

to develop into an outside linebacker. The Pats would have to wait a

year or so for the player to develop. Management seems to prefer

players who can contribute immediately even if they are over the hill.
 
It'll be interesting to watch this offseason unfold. We all know there are possibilities of upgrades in the D backfield (primarily corner,) as well as a need for depth and upgrades if available at LB. I don't think there are arguments there at all.

Let's take a step back and observe a couple of traits we all have. This isn't about any particular person, I think it's human nature. These are tendencies of thought to look out for, going forward:

1 - we tend to see a successful approach and envy/mimic it, and this tendency is emphasized when it is juxtaposed against a moment of crisis for the approach we ourselves take

2 - "the grass is always greener," in general. Any individual or any unit from another team looks better, because we notice them when they shine, and we focus on our own team w/a microscope.

3 - On the other side of the coin: The protective/conservative instinct. I've been noted for this one in the past. A sort of "In Bill We Trust," "Everything is fine" reaction.

At least we all can agree that everything's not fine, especially if measured against a dimensionless ideal ("perfection," anybody?) More to the point, there is always the possibility of improvement.

Now we seem to have developed two camps:

1. Stay fundamentally similar, and add upgrades; and
2. Think about re-working the system in general, and add what upgrades are required.

(1) provides us the luxury of action at whatever pace is available through draft/FA, and fits better with a system that is not in crisis.

(2) requires more radical shifts, both in personnel and scheme. Some argue that (2) is desireable now, and it is a very tempting argument. (See "greener grass" and "moment of crisis" points above.)

From my observation the last few years, our defense has been optimized to prevent scoring and take advantage of the offense's mistakes. Sounds like a very simple idea, but it's not a given. This D denies big plays, and has been characterized as "bend but don't break," by design. It should be noted that "bend but don't break" isn't anybody's idea of a perfect outcome or something to be hoped for. It is, rather, an optimal outcome. It allows for good performance from good players to prevent high scoring, while still providing some big play (turnover/sack) potential. What it doesn't do, unless you get a huge ROI on your talent, is smother or decimate the other team. "The 85 Bears dominated you. The 2000 Ravens smothered you. The Patriots just beat you," is how I once heard it (I think, though the other teams cited may have been different.) Point is, if you're looking for DOMINANCE on D, you do pay for it. It's not that you don't want it, it's a matter of not being able to COUNT on that superior ROI, if you are not willing to unbalance the team (see Chicago, Baltimore) to achieve it.

Last Sunday we watched the Giants dominate the LOS. Then we saw three of our guys not sack Manning when it counted; not succeed in coverage against the final Giants drive; and not make the big turnover (Asante's non-interception.) Simply put, it was a slaughter, a mis-match, a defense of young warriors on the part of the Giants, versus old hobbling husks for the Pats.

Uh, except that they only scored 17 on us. Emotional coloration is a funny thing. Am I envious that we didn't get to Manning nearly 20 times, including sacks, knockdowns, and pressures? Sure. Is it necessary to do so, in order for this D to succeed? No.

Similarly, against the Colts, I watched guys fly around all day, and in the end, they couldn't finish on top. Granted, one of their best spin-in-a-circle guys was out, but the "greener grass" of a smallish, speed oriented Dungy D somehow did not measure up.

All that to say: yes, I believe we need positional upgrades. I do not believe we need to revamp either the defensive philosophy or the types of players we look for... perhaps with an adjustment to the big/fast tradeofff, when an Adalius Thomas is not available ;)

Priorities, then:

Replace or (unlikely) retain Asante Samuel; assume a downgrade.
Remember the "greener grass" -- Asante Samuel is good. I know he dropped one very important ball in one very important game, but also remember the "recent crisis" pitfall. As I saw Kosar say on NFLN, "There's a reason DBs are DBs - they can't catch." Asante is one who can catch, and can cover. Lots of fans of Asumogha here. Maybe he qualifies as "replace" level as our "#1 corner"

I'm also okay with Hobbs... but would like insurance.
Again, we have seen him play well, and we have seen him get torched. Most recently? Torched. Of course, there is the whole "on an island against a tall receiver" argument (leading to a whole medley of pleas for a tall corner.) Bring in options. First day pick options, say round 3, preferred. Then there's the oft-stated lust for Marcus Trufant or Asumogha... well that would be a dollars and cents business decision. Are we talking about to play instead of Samuel? Doable. Across from Samuel? That constitutes an overemphasis on the CB position, in my opinion. Eventually, you run into the Stephen Wrightism... "You can't have everything... where would you put it?" Or, more mundanely, how do you pay for it?

Address linebacker. BB, SP, figure it out. Lots of love for Gholston around here. Is that really superior to getting a #15 pick in this draft plus a first round in 09, or say a high second in 08? We know one of the better traits of our FO is draft pick alchemy. Bear in mind you pay FA money for the unproven, when it comes to top 10 draft picks. I know I know, "The guy is a beast." Or, the guy is a bust. Go ahead, claim to know which one he is. Then think about Robert Gallery or Chris Conte or Andy Katzenmoyer or whoever is your symbol for "high first round bust." Not ruling it out -- just saying I'd far prefer to know I have a decent starter, than guess I might have an exceptional player. Control the risks.

We also know the preference for free agents in the LB corps. Can Colvin be restructured? Do you keep him if it means his current cap hit (north of 7M)? How about Briggs, Dansby, Hobson, etc. etc.? Granted, they cost money now, but it's not like we have 2 first round picks (heh.) Either way, a high pick linebacker or a good-production "fit" for this defense will make 2 bodies in 2 years, and not at the "JAG" level.

The "Adjust for Speed" question. Eventually, one has to adjust for age. But should we be looking at an average-speed 260, or a fast/hard-hitting 230? Obviously the combination, plus the smarts/versatility needed to play in a Belichick D, constitutes the trifecta (see AD). Out of that combination, will we see the gradual speed preference argued for above? I think the answer is that you get the puzzle-piece, if he fits at all, and then the puzzle gets adjusted to get the best pieces on the field. Needless to say, that constitutes the tweak form of adjustment, not the wholesale overhaul.

I think this off-season it's a matter of standing pat (or close to it) in terms of philosophy, steadily infusing relative youth/trustworthy play and potential at linebacker, and controlling the damage at cornerback, with Samuel's likely departure. We replace Samuel with a value addition, providing the coverage ability minus perhaps some big play ability. If there is a value upgrade to Hobbs, sure, do it. But Hobbs has been solid overall.

I don't need no true Tampa-2, I don't need no Blitzburgh or no New New York Sack Exchange.

I want to see a reinvigorated Homeland Defense, capable of playing blitz-heavy one week, and opportunisticly waiting for the other guy's mistake, while containing his options, the next.

Sorry if I write long, guys. Pick it apart at will!

PFnV
 
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