This kinda bummed me out - Chandler Jones kickin ass (so far)

[patchick]

Why should we be bummed that Jones is playing well? It's 100% to the Patriots benefit that the trade looks good from Arizona's perspective, that encourages other teams to deal with BB & co. As for the Patriots, they got just what they wanted from the loss of one year of Jones' services: a lot of cap space and two good-looking young players long-term for cheap.

Speaking of contracts, there's a misconception out there:

It was a bad trade, especially when you consider that they are paying Cooper pretty much the same salary that they would have paid Jones.

That's simply wrong. Cooper is making $2.4 M, Jones $7.8 million -- more than 3x as much. Here's the real math that shows the impact on the team's total cap for this year, let alone next:

Cooper ($2.4) + Long ($1.9) + Thuney ($0.6) + Mitchell ($0.6) = $5.5M

Jones = $7.8 M

 

[FourierSeries]

It's still the first half of the season, so of course he's playing well. It's the 2nd half (and especially in the playoffs) when he disappears.

 

[PF_SU]

I don't think we got enough compensation for a double digit pro bowl sack artist in his prime

I argued against a Jones trade precisely because I didn't think he'd fetch adequate value (which to me was a late first - which is kind of impossible with the witch hunt penalty - or a high second plus a third or fourth). Now, we flipped the pick we got from the Cardinals for a third and fourth and picked Thuney and Mitchell which is pretty solid.

Our pass rush on our d line has been abysmal in 3 out of 4 games this year, especially the interior.

I fail to see the connection you try to make here since having Jones wouldn't have strengthened our interior pass rush at all. Long has done a solid job filling in for Jones this year. We had the pass rush problems you mentioned with Jones too. This D-line lacks the elite talent that Denver has with Von Miller and is reliant on the LBs to generate additional pressure (which is problematic when Hightower is ailing), on top of a conservative play-caller.

 

[Joey007]

PFF? *sigh*

I still can't believe SNF is now using PFF when they introduce the starting lineup. It just looks all over the place.

 

[Joey007]

I still think it was right to move ahead from him. But glad to see he's doing well in Arizona. I have no reason to root against him.

 

[Marqui]

I knew he was going to tear it up for Arizona. He's going to be dominant the entire year as well being with a coach that knows how to use him best.

 

[PF_SU]

Last year, the Patriots were one of the best pass rushing teams. It hid the problems in the secondary that are showing up this year. Keeping Chanler Jones for another year probably would have been a good idea.

You have to look farther than just that. According to Doug Kyed Jones last year had 49 pressures. Sheard had 51. Then you had Ninkovich with 39, Easley with 28, Hightower with 26, Hicks with 26 and Collins with 17. Sheard, Hightower, Collins and Hicks were all extremely productive with rates of above 14-15%. Jones was at 9.2%. Jones was an important part, but the pass rushing issues right now are not mainly because Jones isn't here anymore. Hightower's injury has severely limited the pressure coming from the LBs (McClellin and Freeny just aren't getting it done and with Hightower out for a couple of games my impression was that they were hesitant to send Collins on those A-gap blitzes) and though Valentine has done a surprisingly good job in limited snaps the absence of Easley and Hicks has affected the pass rush as well. The edges aren't doing any worse than last year in my eyes, especially if you consider that the team was without Ninkovich for the past month.

I still can't believe SNF is now using PFF when they introduce the starting lineup. It just looks all over the place.

This PFF position ranking is insane. But it fits well with the media that just loves rankings.

 

[Joey007]

You have to look farther than just that. According to Doug Kyed Jones last year had 49 pressures. Sheard had 51. Then you had Ninkovich with 39, Easley with 28, Hightower with 26, Hicks with 26 and Collins with 17. Sheard, Hightower, Collins and Hicks were all extremely productive with rates of above 14-15%. Jones was at 9.2%. Jones was an important part, but the pass rushing issues right now are not mainly because Jones isn't here anymore. Hightower's injury has severely limited the pressure coming from the LBs (McClellin and Freeny just aren't getting it done and with Hightower out for a couple of games my impression was that they were hesitant to send Collins on those A-gap blitzes) and though Valentine has done a surprisingly good job in limited snaps the absence of Easley and Hicks has affected the pass rush as well. The edges aren't doing any worse than last year in my eyes, especially if you consider that the team was without Ninkovich for the past month.


This PFF position ranking is insane. But it fits well with the media that just loves rankings.

You have teams who half of their starters have rankings in the 100's...

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Good luck to him. I hope he has a good career wherever he plays. He was a good soldier here and wasn't going to get paid so BB sold him a year early. No big deal.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Good luck to him. I hope he has a good career wherever he plays. He was a good soldier here and wasn't going to get paid so BB sold him a year early. No big deal.

A 15 sacks per year impact pro bowl DE in his prime should generate more compensation than a late second round pick. We got a first for a 30 year old Seymour

 

[Adam Seward]

Jones had a strip sack in the game against the Pat's, he tipped a pass on Thursday, that ended up getting intercepted by another lineman. AZ was losing 7-0 at the time, he gave them the ball at the SF 20, they scored in the next play ( with their back up QB), and didn't look back after that. Jones makes game changing plays, strip sacks, blocked FG, sacks, he is an impact player.

The Pat's could have had him play this year and then still got a third round pick for him if he left in Free Agency. It was a bad trade, especially when you consider that they are paying Cooper pretty much the same salary that they would have paid Jones.

You net a former top 5 OL, at the time a dire need, a 2nd round pick turned OL, in a year we are short on top picks, and a 4th turned WR who is on active gameday roster.

You lose a DE, at a time when we had talent and depth on the line, who was a liability in the run and known to disappear during stretches.

Replaced with a high motor player at a low cost and who is by all accounts a consummate professional and hungry to win.

And you would have rather kept Jones for a final year, let him hit F/A, get a round lower pick, and have to wait an extra year to use it?

Seems like an easy value proposition to me.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Cooper released. Sad footnote in this trade, although I'm very happy with the players we drafted with the compensation.

 

[JMC00]

Last year, the Patriots were one of the best pass rushing teams. It hid the problems in the secondary that are showing up this year. Keeping Chanler Jones for another year probably would have been a good idea.

Clearly you've just thrown that out without actually looking at the stats through 4 games last year and 4 games this year.

2015 first 4 games

19.0- points allowed per game
244.0 passing yards per game
6 TD
6 INT
13 Sacks
65.7 completion percentage allowed
83.6 QB Rating against
21 of 54 (38% 3rd downs)

2016 first 4 games

15.3- points per game allowed
264.5- passing yards per game allowed
5 TD
3 INT'
8 Sacks
66.0 completions percentage allowed
88.0 QB Rating
24 of 52 (46.1% 3rd downs)


So let's see. Allowing less points per game, have given up 1 less passing TD, 5 sacks fewer, Completion percentage allowed is almost identical, have only allowed 3 more 3rd downs to be completed and have allowed 20 more passing yards a game which is kind of cancelled out by allowing less points per game.

Defense is pretty much right around where it was last year at this time and they've done it without Ninkovich for 4 games and 2 games without Hightower, which those 2 played in all 4 games in '15.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

You net a former top 5 OL, at the time a dire need, a 2nd round pick turned OL, in a year we are short on top picks, and a 4th turned WR who is on active gameday roster.

You lose a DE, at a time when we had talent and depth on the line, who was a liability in the run and known to disappear during stretches.

Replaced with a high motor player at a low cost and who is by all accounts a consummate professional and hungry to win.

And you would have rather kept Jones for a final year, let him hit F/A, get a round lower pick, and have to wait an extra year to use it?

Seems like an easy value proposition to me.

I'll accept your apology, or at least acknowledgment, now that Cooper Has been released, that this was a terrible trade.

 

[JMC00]

I still can't believe SNF is now using PFF when they introduce the starting lineup. It just looks all over the place.

Collinsworth owns pff, that's why.

 

[JMC00]

that this was a terrible trade.

How was it a terrible trade when the Pats also got Thuney, their starting LG and Malcolm Mitchell, who has made a few plays so far with the draft pick they got? All while the defense thru 4 games has been pretty much the same as it was thru 4 games last year?

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

How was it a terrible trade when the Pats also got Thuney, their starting LG and Malcolm Mitchell, who has made a few plays so far with the draft pick they got? All while the defense thru 4 games has been pretty much the same as it was thru 4 games last year?

They could have made that same trade, and kept Jones instead of drafting Cyrus " I can't catch a punt, or beat out a couple of UDFA's For playtime" Jones

 

[PF_SU]

How was it a terrible trade when the Pats also got Thuney, their starting LG and Malcolm Mitchell, who has made a few plays so far with the draft pick they got? All while the defense thru 4 games has been pretty much the same as it was thru 4 games last year?

In theory they could've done the same trade with #60 instead of taking Cyrus Jones. So there is a possibility to weigh Chandler Jones, Thuney and Mitchell against Chris Long, Thuney and Mitchell instead of solely Chandler Jones against Long, Thuney and Mitchell.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

A 15 sacks per year impact pro bowl DE in his prime should generate more compensation than a late second round pick. We got a first for a 30 year old Seymour

We got a one-year removed first round pick for Seymour. He was traded in 2009 and we didn't get the 1st rounder until 2011. Al Davis specifically offered Belichick the choice between a 2nd rounder in 2010 or a 1st rounder in 2011, Belichick took the latter.

Seymour was also way more dominant at his position than Jones ever was, no disrespect intended towards Jones, just a reminder of just how good Seymour was. And plus, Al Davis isn't around anymore, who had a draft value system very different than everyone else's.

 

[PF_SU]

We got a one-year removed first round pick for Seymour. He was traded in 2009 and we didn't get the 1st rounder until 2011. Al Davis specifically offered Belichick the choice between a 2nd rounder in 2010 or a 1st rounder in 2011, Belichick took the latter.

Seymour was also way more dominant at his position than Jones ever was, no disrespect intended towards Jones, just a reminder of just how good Seymour was. And plus, Al Davis isn't around anymore, who had a draft value system very different than everyone else's.

Seymour had 8 sacks in 2008 as a 3-4 DE. But damn, the Raiders chose a bad time (for the Patriots) to be an 8-8 team. Had they gone like 6-10 or 5-11 the Patriots could've drafted JJ Watt. Or if they really wanted a Light-replacement, Tyron Smith.