Why Brady over Bill

[PP2]

Kraft's taken a lot of abuse around here, and rightly so, for recent events.

BUT... if Kraft doesn't:

a) buy the team and keep it in New England
b) learn from his first few years of ownership mistakes
c) recognize Belichick's potential as both coach and GM

...then we have neither Brady, Belichick, nor the team itself.

This is why I often refer to them as the holy trinity, or the perfect storm. All together, the three of them bring out the best in one another; even just two of them together would still not be as effective if the third one was missing. Kraft is smart and humble enough to be hands off, BB knows the culture and mentality he institutes is nothing without a leader like Brady. Brady, in turn, knows he would have never thrived without the other two.

 

[RobertWeathers]

This is why I often refer to them as the holy trinity, or the perfect storm. All together, the three of them bring out the best in one another; even just two of them together would still not be as effective if the third one was missing. Kraft is smart and humble enough to be hands off, BB knows the culture and mentality he institutes is nothing without a leader like Brady. Brady, in turn, knows he would have never thrived without the other two.

Well said.

There are a ton of owners who decide what a coach should do with the roster and what plays they should run on gameday.

At the end of the day, Bob's role is to keep the money flowing into this place, provide stability, support the cuture and ensure BB has complete autonomy to run the organization and team as he sees fit.

As much as Bob gets hammered here (and deservedly so) since BB showed up his restraint in meddling in football ops has been critical to this franchise's success.

 

[sevengables_2207]

I find the timing of this thread curious considering that the team has come out with three impressive victories without TB12.

 

[1960Pats]

Kraft's taken a lot of abuse around here, and rightly so, for recent events.

BUT... if Kraft doesn't:

a) buy the team and keep it in New England
b) learn from his first few years of ownership mistakes
c) recognize Belichick's potential as both coach and GM

...then we have neither Brady, Belichick, nor the team itself.

Skip all of the middle men. Thank you Billy Sullivan. If you didn't start the team and battle the NFL, Kraft wouldn't have had the Patriots to buy.

This issue came up before here in another thread. I remember cutting up the credit pie with a range around 85% to Brady, 10% to Belichick and a tiny little 5% piece of the pie to Kraft. After the last few weeks I will change that to 75-20-5, but that's it.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

They have the ultimate symbiotic relationship. It's completely impossible to determine who is more responsible for their success and frankly is a complete waste of time to even try.

Are we talking about Red & Russell or Belichick & Tom?

 

[1960Pats]

This question is asked a lot and being asked a lot now. Who is more responsible and who is more valuable.

To me this was never a debate. The answer is Tom Brady and frankly all due respect to Bill it is not close (and i say that believing he is the best coach of all time). So why do i say this? Well lets talk about it.

#1 Brady built the Culture - Skip Bayless said this too but he did not say it completely and was wrong about some points. The truth is the hardest thing for a coach to do is to get players to buy in. To get players to want to come to his team (without over paying) and to get players to put the work in needed to be a champion. Bill as good as he is can not do these things alone. When Bill came to the Patriots he had zero credibility with players. Coaches knew who he was as did some owners but he had no way to get players to buy in and believe they were making a championship team here. Not until Brady. The Patriots under BB were 5-13 before Brady. Bill can talk about championship football all he wants and schemes but it is hard to get players to buy in without results. Brady is the man who made it possible for BB to deliver those results. They started winning and by the time they played the Rams the first time and almost won you could tell a skip in their step changed. They where playing faster and harder on D and could see a chance to build something here instead of playing for a contract. Once they got that first Superbowl win it gave legitimacy to everything Bill said about team building. Without Brady they go maybe 8-8 at best.

#2 Brady brought in the players - As a consequence of winning players look a different view of the Pats. They were not just another bottom level team. They were now a contender with a young promising QB and good defensive talent. 2002 didn't work out due to injuries but I believe 2003 would not have been possible without the credit build in 2001. The Pats got some cheap vets who were skilled and looking to win. If they Pats never drafted Brady and had 2 losing seasons in 2001 and 2003 would Rodney Harrison and others choose to come here? I don't think so. I think they spend their last years on a contender. It was getting Brady that was the selling point to get these players. Like a college recruiter coaches sometimes must coax players into being on their team. By either breaking the bank or giving them someone they can most likely get there. This was key for the Pats. Also they were able to keep players Like Brushi and Vrabel ect on cheap contracts. This was because of the Pats winning culture they established thanks to Brady. Brady is the reason the team has had sustained excellence and he is the reason the team did so well without him cause his cheap contract and gravitas (and timing) allowed the Pats to form power house teams which he has unfortunately not always been a part of. that 2008 team was a machine which Brady helped build but did not get to run. Much of BB's legend is based off that season. Facing a substantially weaker schedule IMO and with much of last year in tack that Pats managed 11-5. However this powerhouse team was only able to be built like this cause Brady was there. If not BB would likely have long been fired before this point.

#3 Fake it till you make it - This is misleading in a way cause i believe BB was always the best coach in the NFL since joining the Pats. However a big reasons he is so effective now particularly is cause he has won 4 rings as a head coach. That credit allows everyone to completely buy into everything he says and also gives him bargaining power. Belief someone is right and what they say will work makes it more effective. This means the championships BB would not have won early on without Brady do in fact make him while not a better coach more able to be effective.

#4 Lucky timing - While I hit on this before I think it is important to do it again. BB has won well here without tom Brady EVER SINCE game 3 in 2001. Before then he was not so good without Brady. With Brady making it possible to build the Program here it has just so happened he has gone out at the single most convenient times. 2008 was arguably one of the best groups of 52 other players besides QB since the salary cap era and against bad competition and did so with a fairly competent QB familiar with their system. In 2016 they Pats are 3-0 so far. Much has to do with having the highly competent JAG and when not having him playing the incompetent Texans with a crappy QB and a better mix of 52 players than them. If Brady got injured in 2002 for the season and suspended 4 games in 2006 the Pats would have been much much worse 14-5 without him.


To put it another way in games before Brady without him the Pats are 5-13. In games without Brady and after he join the Pats are 14-5. This effect is largely based on the impact Brady had IMO and i would argue the fact these stats are near mirrors is highly interesting.

When the team wins Bill Belichick claims that it's a players game, takes the attention away from himself and gives it to the players where he thinks it belongs. I agree with him when he makes that claim. In Bill I Trust.

Brady=75%
Belichick=20%
Kraft=5%

That's my final answer.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I find the timing of this thread curious considering that the team has come out with three impressive victories without TB12.

I think Brady deserves credit for the team's strong start, in that he's contributed to the culture of winning, next man up, team first etc. He has a huge influence, even when he's not there.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

He's the absolute, indisputable truth....

Whether one believes the Pats success is half Brady & half Belichick, mostly Belichick or mostly Brady are all correct!

No one will EVER be able to prove one way or another who is more responsible and if you're bull-headedly in one camp, all that proves is that you're just plain bull-headed

Seriously, it's an idiotic debate to take sides in and if you disagree, your just proving your idiocy and announcing it to the entire board.

There has never been a great QB (measured in SB victories) that has not had a great coach

So let's just bask in the glory of what we have and let the historians debate this foolish topic

I think most people, including the media, considered Bill Belichick an unsuccessful NFL head coach pre-Tom; and it was after we won that people took a closer look at him.

I always liked Bill, from when he was with the Giants (and of course I hate the Giants), and I really respected his way of doing things, not caring about winning a popularity contest (see Cleveland).

When Bill came here, he brought lots of cred with him from Parcells' old staff, and players were buying in. They just really needed to get Bledsoe out of there, despite all the passing yards and Kraft's adulation.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

I find the timing of this thread curious considering that the team has come out with three impressive victories without TB12.

That's precisely the reason for it; to nip all that BB > TB talk in the bud. As others have said the three needed each other and two of them are GOATs.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

When the team wins Bill Belichick claims that it's a players game, takes the attention away from himself and gives it to the players where he thinks it belongs. I agree with him when he makes that claim. In Bill I Trust.

Brady=75%
Belichick=20%
Kraft=5%

That's my final answer.

I think you're on the right track.

How can you quantify the importance of a conversation on a plane flight home, or dispatching a scout to a Bowl game? It's like, you know, without Wren Blair, Bobby Orr doesn't come here.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

That's precisely the reason for it; to nip all that BB > TB talk in the bud. As others have said the three needed each other and two of them are GOATs.

I think RK has to be considered a great owner.

And I still hate him for messing up our logo & uniforms.

 

[Joker]

"Actual" Pats Fan implies the rest of us aren't. Pretty arrogant. The constant , nonstop harping all over this board about the logo and now the uniforms is aggravating as hell. We get it, you hate the logo and uniforms. We got it MONTHS AGO. Jeezus krist, give it a goddamned break.

 

[LightSkinSmurf]

"The answer is Tom Brady and frankly all due respect to Bill it is not close" Stopped reading there.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

When consensus has been reached on this question, I look forward to also reading about who is more important:

Paul Brown or Otto Graham?
Vince Lombardi or Bart Starr?
Bill Walsh or Joe Montana?
Tom Landry or Roger Staubach?
Chuck Knoll or Terry Bradshaw?

 

[Tony2046]

"Actual" Pats Fan implies the rest of us aren't. Pretty arrogant. The constant , nonstop harping all over this board about the logo and now the uniforms is aggravating as hell. We get it, you hate the logo and uniforms. We got it MONTHS AGO. Jeezus krist, give it a goddamned break.

Can I at least talk about my ex wife who divorced me 20 years ago??

 

[Brewskies]

Does it really matter? we are lucky to have all three Kraft, BB and Brady. If I was putting together a new team I want BB as my first choice, second Kraft and third Brady. We just won three without Brady because................? BB

 

[Tony2046]

The credit belongs to Troy Brown.

Who was on the team before Kraft owned it??

Who was already on the roster when the Pats went to their SB under Parcells?

Who was on the roster when BB came to town?

Who was Brady's first security blanket???

I rest my case.



But that damn logo change.....

 

[rochrist]

The thing is, BB /was/ good before TB. He took the dumpster fire of a franchise to the playoffs and kicked the asses of the Bill Parcells led Pats before the owner blew the franchise up around him. He was 5-11 his first year here because he was engaged in clearing out an incredible amount of deadwood and rebuilding the team, something he did in an incredibly short amount of time. That was a really good team TB took over and that's because of Bill.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Did people ask this question of Russell and Auerbach when they were doing their thing for the Celtics in the 60's???
That is the closest comparison I can think of in terms of an all time great coach/GM and player....

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

The credit belongs to Troy Brown.

Who was on the team before Kraft owned it??

Who was already on the roster when the Pats went to their SB under Parcells?

Who was on the roster when BB came to town?

Who was Brady's first security blanket???

I rest my case.



But that damn logo change.....

Who else played offense, defense and special teams??