NFL Appeal oral arguments thread

[Deus Irae]

'Toward the end of Kessler’s oral argument, he stated that Goodell manufactured the issue of cell-phone destruction being something of greater import because Goodell knew that being “generally aware” wasn’t sufficient to discipline Brady to that extent.

Parker raised an eyebrow and said, “What’s the motivation here?”

“He spent $3 million on an investigation" and wanted to justify the time and effort spent, was Kessler’s reply in essence.

“Are you suggesting he was out to get Mr. Brady?” asked Parker.

“He was out to protect [the investigation],” countered Kessler.

Kessler ratcheted up at that point and pointed out that it was “embarrassing for the league” because it knew it didn’t have the goods on Brady and didn’t understand the Ideal Gas Law.

With that Katzmann raised a hand as if to say, “No Ideal Gas Law here.”

Kessler exclaimed: “I sense you're being influenced by your view of the facts!”

“We are being influenced by your briefs,” said Parker. '


This is a f.ucking disaster.

Not really. People are doing a whole lot of reading into things.

 

[VectorPrime]

Nothing wrong with this. The Ideal Gas Law was not within the scope of this hearing.

Technically nothing about deflation at all was within the scope of this hearing, but when one of the 3 judges says that the evidence for deflation was "convincing if not overwhelming" then its obviously a factor. And since its obviously a factor its a horrible sign that Kessler was not allowed to bring up all of the scientific evidence that points toward there being no cheating. It's like Chin read the Wells Report and literally nothing else over the last 8 months that has obliterated everything in it.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes , but a lot of the legal experts minus munson seemd to think berman favored brady and he will get his suspension overturned. Today the same people wallach, mccann think brady will probably lose. So there is that.

Most that I saw said based on the hearings that Brady will probably lose, but unless you know the judges and how they hold court, you don't know what they are thinking.

 

[Todd Bradley]

It has everything to do with it, because it is about the bias of the arbiter.

But the arbiter was the person in charge of the punishment and the investigation. There was bias to begin with. Which was the point of Berman's ruling.

This has been practically admitted to by the NFL attorney's, stating that Goodell "didn't believe" Brady's sworn testimony.

To uphold or reverse the appeal of the decision of Goodell being neutral has nothing to do with why Brady destroyed his phone in an investigation that had previously deemed it "not necessary".

This is so mind-blowingly stupid it isn't even funny.

 

[resdubwhite]

whats the point of todays hearing then. Judges asking questions with little or no relevancy to their ruling.
Is there like a courtroom performance fee or something....

 

[gitgronked82]

honestly man. all i care about at this point is reputation. i'm gonna wanna kill myself talking to other fans if the suspension comes down again

 

[Ring 6]

But the arbiter was the person in charge of the punishment and the investigation. There was never any bias to begin with. Which was the point of Berman's ruling.

This has been practically admitted to by the NFL attorney's, stating that Goodell "didn't believe" Brady's sworn testimony.

To uphold or reverse the appeal of the decision of Goodell being neutral has nothing to do with why Brady destroyed his phone in an investigation that had previously deemed it "not necessary".

This is so mind-blowingly stupid it isn't even funny.

What?
It applies because it was about Goodells bias. I'm not sure where you think there was no bias.
Kessler points out that Goodell was biased because he paid Wells.

 

[Deus Irae]

Reading the actual exchanges v. reading the tweets and listening to the reports gives me a different take on some of the "OMG!" stuff. I could be wrong, but it seems as if people may be reading into things that aren't actually there.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm trying to convince myself of that but stuff like "the evidence is overwhelming that there was tampering" is a bit beyond the pale of "playing devil's advocate." Not to mention, it's ignorant and a great example of what legal argument/discourse is NOT suppose to be like.

Yeah, but this isn't a case of whether Brady is guilty or innocent. It is whether Berman's decision is correct in his interpretation of the law. Brady can be 100% guilty and if Berman's interpretation of the law is correct, there is nothing these judges can do.

 

[VectorPrime]

Not really. People are doing a whole lot of reading into things.

I'm not criticizing you but could you please explain your rational?

 

[JMC00]

ut when one of the 3 judges says that the evidence for deflation was "convincing if not overwhelming"

Did all 3 say that or 1?

 

[Gronkowski123]

'Toward the end of Kessler’s oral argument, he stated that Goodell manufactured the issue of cell-phone destruction being something of greater import because Goodell knew that being “generally aware” wasn’t sufficient to discipline Brady to that extent.

Parker raised an eyebrow and said, “What’s the motivation here?”

“He spent $3 million on an investigation" and wanted to justify the time and effort spent, was Kessler’s reply in essence.

“Are you suggesting he was out to get Mr. Brady?” asked Parker.

“He was out to protect [the investigation],” countered Kessler.

Kessler ratcheted up at that point and pointed out that it was “embarrassing for the league” because it knew it didn’t have the goods on Brady and didn’t understand the Ideal Gas Law.

With that Katzmann raised a hand as if to say, “No Ideal Gas Law here.”

Kessler exclaimed: “I sense you're being influenced by your view of the facts!”

“We are being influenced by your briefs,” said Parker. '


This is a f.ucking disaster.

we're screwed then. ideal gas law explains everything and they dont want to hear it.
just take a ball and leave out in the cold for an hour and check the pressure.

kudos to the league for pushing the destroyed cellphone narrative...

 

[Todd Bradley]

What?
It applies because it was about Goodells bias. I'm not sure where you think there was no bias.
Kessler points out that Goodell was biased because he paid Wells.

You may be confused here. I'm not saying anything of the sort.

I'm saying that I ABSOLUTELY do believe there was bias, but that Brady's phone has zero to do with the appeal of Berman's decision, which is based primarily on procedure.

I think you and I are arguing about the exact same thing and are on the same page here...

 

[Ring 6]

Technically nothing about deflation at all was within the scope of this hearing, but when one of the 3 judges says that the evidence for deflation was "convincing if not overwhelming" then its obviously a factor. And since its obviously a factor its a horrible sign that Kessler was not allowed to bring up all of the scientific evidence that points toward there being no cheating. It's like Chin read the Wells Report and literally nothing else over the last 8 months that has obliterated everything in it.

It doesn't matter.
Chin isn't going to not realize that whether he thinks the Deflator stuck a needle in the balls or not is irrelevant.
It's just silly that people are taking a comment or question, and assuming why it was asked, what it means, and inferring a ruling from it.

 

[ANGR89]

Reading the actual exchanges v. reading the tweets and listening to the reports gives me a different take on some of the "OMG!" stuff. I could be wrong, but it seems as if people may be reading into things that aren't actually there.

I so hope your right

 

[Ring 6]

You may be confused here. I'm not saying anything of the sort.

I'm saying that I ABSOLUTELY do believe there was bias, but that Brady's phone has zero to do with the appeal of Berman's decision, which is based primarily on procedure.

I think you and I are arguing about the exact same thing and are on the same page here...

I'm not confused, these were your words:

There was never any bias to begin with.

 

[upstater1]

Im trying to figure out why some of you aren't alarmed at Kessler's quote.

Brady's entire case is that the arbitrator deliberately and with malice disregarded the facts.

If the judges believe that this didn't happen, then Brady loses.

The only reason Berman ruled against the arbitrator's (ahem) discretion is because he believed the arbitrator was biased and was not giving the facts an adequate assessment.

If someone turns around and thinks the facts overwhelmingly show tampering, then you have to defer to the arbitrator.

 

[YOUGOTMOSSED]

Yeah, but this isn't a case of whether Brady is guilty or innocent. It is whether Berman's decision is correct in his interpretation of the law. Brady can be 100% guilty and if Berman's interpretation of the law is correct, there is nothing these judges can do.

A "he's guilty but our hands are tied" type decision is not optimal. I'm pissed that they're even "going there." Saying things like, "the evidence of tampering is overwhelming" is ignorant, unprofessional, and irresponsible.

 

[Todd Bradley]

I'm not confused, these were your words:

Ahh, that was meant to say "There was bias to begin with". My apologies. Fixed it.

....And now we're on the same page here.

But still now, Brady's phone and Goodall's bias have zero to do with this appeal, strictly based on procedure and whether or not it was fair.

So none of this back-and-forth really answers anything on why this is part of the appeal arguments other than the Judges can ask whatever they hell they want.

 

[Gronkowski123]

honestly man. all i care about at this point is reputation. i'm gonna wanna kill myself talking to other fans if the suspension comes down again

why? most fans think brady's a cheat anyway.