Pats' ball, 1st and goal, who do you put in?

[PatrioticDynasty]

Why not? Typically, failure to convert short yardage is much more a reflection of line play than a failure of the ball carrier.

So, all that dancing in the backfield is the O'line's fault? What do you want Moses on the O'line to part the defensive sea before you get to the hole?

 

[dryheat44]

So, all that dancing in the backfield is the O'line's fault? What do you want Moses on the O'line to part the defensive sea before you get to the hole?

Usually if a running back is dancing in the backfield, especially on a short yardage play, it's because there's a defensive player standing where there shouldn't be a defensive player. Or, to say it another way, a lineman didn't make his block. I don't remember too many cases where there was a hole where the play was supposed to go, but the running back danced around to see what else was available. Unless his name was Sanders.

 

[Remix 6]

So, all that dancing in the backfield is the O'line's fault? What do you want Moses on the O'line to part the defensive sea before you get to the hole?

first of all..Maroney did dance towards end of season mostly but he didnt do it just to try to get more.

the OL broke down and there was a guy in his face and he tried to get past him

 

[dryheat44]

first of all..Maroney did dance towards end of season mostly but he didnt do it just to try to get more.

the OL broke down and there was a guy in his face and he tried to get past him

Right...I was just going to add that Maroney does need to learn how to put his head down and get what he can when the blocking breaks down instead of trying to make something out of nothing and losing 3 yards, so he can improve. So that's on him. But it doesn't excuse the O-Line for allowing penetration.

This is also where Randy Moss is going to help.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, you see a patriot running back is supposed to walk in untouched. In fact, this is so much the OL's fault that we are changing blocking schemes, so that Maroney will have more opportunities to waltz into the end zone untouched. It seems that it is simply too much to expect to have a patriot 2007 RB move the pile out of sheer skill, will and aggessiveness.

Personally, this would not be acceptable if I were OC. Lucky I guess that I am not. I would want a RB on the 53 who I could count on to move toward the line, and be counted on to gain a yard, almost always. I could run into the end zone if the hole were wide enough. The issue is the nature of the RB's responsibility when there isn't a clear hole.

Student body right for a yard should almost work for a yard. We have the blockers (the right side of the OL plus Brady and Evans). What we apparently do not have is the RB.

So, all that dancing in the backfield is the O'line's fault? What do you want Moses on the O'line to part the defensive sea before you get to the hole?

 

[dryheat44]

Yes, you see a patriot running back is supposed to walk in untouched. In fact, this is so much the OL's fault that we are changing blocking schemes, so that Maroney will have more opportunities to waltz into the end zone untouched. It seems that it is simply too much to expect to have a patriot 2007 RB move the pile out of sheer skill, will and aggessiveness.

Personally, this would not be acceptable if I were OC. Lucky I guess that I am not. I would want a RB on the 53 who I could count on to move toward the line, and be counted on to gain a yard, almost always. I could run into the end zone if the hole were wide enough. The issue is the nature of the RB's responsibility when there isn't a clear hole.

Student body right for a yard should almost work for a yard. We have the blockers (the right side of the OL plus Brady and Evans). What we apparently do not have is the RB.

We weren't talking about initiating contact or breaking tackles. If Maroney was unable to do that, you'd have a great argument. But I don't think that's a problem. Maroney seems to enjoy the collisions. However, if we're in a short yardage situation and there is a defender in the backfield just as Maroney is taking the ball, that is on the O-line. That's what my eyes saw late last season, and almost always on the left side. Light was getting abused. I wish he could string together two good seasons.

In a short yardage situation, the RB should be able to get a yard before being touched. It's why the O-Line has a snap count.

 

[DaBruinz]

I actually hope you are right about Maroney. He was drafted to be our premier back. Yet, I rewatched the Charger's play off game the other night and there was a draw play to Maroney and the Charger's safety came up and tackled him with one arm in the back field. He should be able to run threw tackle attempts like that. The only significant play he had that whole game was to tackle Donnie Edwards after an INT.

Maroney playoffs: 87 yds on 31 attempts for 2.8 yd/carry, O TDs and 9 yd long run. He should have torn up the Colts. On NFL.Com only 3 backs had worse playoff stats than Maroney. He was outperformed by 27 other RBs in the playoffs.

I know some people will say he had injuries but they are part of the game. I also believe if you are cleared to play by the team doctors then Belichick expects you to perform without using the injury excuse.

We just might miss Corey in short yardage situations this year.

Rab -
Its amazing how you insist on looking STRICTLY at the play-offs when Maroney not only had the rib issue, but ALSO had the shoulder issue. Yes, injuries happen, but when you are a RB, you need your shoulder and ribs to be healthy, otherwise it WILL affect your play.

Maroney is young and he's not had a shoulder issue before. One just has to hope that he recovers well. If not, then the Pats will rely on Maroney, Faulk, and Morris to handle the load, thus making it less likely for another injury to occur and helping him to build up his shoulder strength and health.

 

[PatrioticDynasty]

Right...I was just going to add that Maroney does need to learn how to put his head down and get what he can when the blocking breaks down instead of trying to make something out of nothing and losing 3 yards, so he can improve. So that's on him. But it doesn't excuse the O-Line for allowing penetration.

This is also where Randy Moss is going to help.

the bold is my point, and if the blocking is breaking down on Matt's side then double up with graham, watson, or go to the right, I just get tired of hearing that it's the O'Lines fault. Why are these guys on the team if they are so bad in your eyes? all I hear about is how Scarnecia is an O'Line guru; especially with what he did with neal, ashworth, hocstein, etc. Plus, there are some real nasties on his side: taylor, SD Roid boy, etc, um didn't he make the pro bowl as an alternate as well if I remember? boy he played like crap...
If it is short yardage then yes you bull threw as best you can as fast as you can; any hesitation is an advantage to the opposing Defense. If he was hurt, he should have not been in there, THAT is what hurt the team down the stretch, and greatly contributed to NOT running out the clock in the game that shall not be mentioned further, chew on that.

PD.

 

[dryheat44]

. Plus, there are some real nasties on his side: taylor, SD Roid boy, etc, um didn't he make the pro bowl as an alternate as well if I remember? boy he played like crap...

PD.

Who chose him as an alternate....I don't remember?

 

[rabthepat]

Rab -
Its amazing how you insist on looking STRICTLY at the play-offs when Maroney not only had the rib issue, but ALSO had the shoulder issue. Yes, injuries happen, but when you are a RB, you need your shoulder and ribs to be healthy, otherwise it WILL affect your play.

Maroney is young and he's not had a shoulder issue before. One just has to hope that he recovers well. If not, then the Pats will rely on Maroney, Faulk, and Morris to handle the load, thus making it less likely for another injury to occur and helping him to build up his shoulder strength and health.

I don't mean to just focus on the playoffs. They perhaps are the freshest in my mind. When the season started I just expected alot out of Maroney because of what Mike Shanahan said about him and how badly the Colts wanted him. As the season went on, it was Addai who impressed me more and more.

To date, Maroney just is not the guy I would give the ball to on short yardage 4th and one or 4th and goal type of runs. I would fear trying to stop Heath Evans head on up the middle than Maroney.



I just remembered...Maroney did have a key 4th and 1 against Denver and he didn't fair so well. It was week 3 so injuries weren't an issue.


09-24-2006, 06:52 PM rabthepat
Third String But Playing on Special Teams Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Planet Patriot in the SuperBowl Galaxy
Posts: 646
My Zoints Profile


Re: Why wouldn't I boo?!

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How pathetic was that first half. 4th and 1? When did Maroney become a power back?

Tom, please stop being a baby and play with some heart. Every game counts dude. Get over your broken heart and lead this team G*D dam it.

Defense - lay some hits on people out there. For Chr*st sake it's Jake plummer not Joe Montana.

Coaching - you are 3rd rate at best tonight. Get the ball down field.

 

[mgteich]

If Light is no good he should be replaced. If he is faced with a mismatch, then a TE should be on his side, as has been the solution for years. No, the OL does not guarantee a RB one yard without effort. That's nonsense.

We weren't talking about initiating contact or breaking tackles. If Maroney was unable to do that, you'd have a great argument. But I don't think that's a problem. Maroney seems to enjoy the collisions. However, if we're in a short yardage situation and there is a defender in the backfield just as Maroney is taking the ball, that is on the O-line. That's what my eyes saw late last season, and almost always on the left side. Light was getting abused. I wish he could string together two good seasons.

In a short yardage situation, the RB should be able to get a yard before being touched. It's why the O-Line has a snap count.

 

[dryheat44]

If Light is no good he should be replaced. If he is faced with a mismatch, then a TE should be on his side, as has been the solution for years. No, the OL does not guarantee a RB one yard without effort. That's nonsense.

I'll wager every offensive line coach feels otherwise. The O-line knowns the snap count, the D-line doesn't. There's no reason the O-line shouldn't get a one -yard surge on a rushing play unless they're completely overmatched.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

I'll wager every offensive line coach feels otherwise. The O-line knowns the snap count, the D-line doesn't. There's no reason the O-line shouldn't get a one -yard surge on a rushing play unless they're completely overmatched.

From your quote, I would guess that every single OL in the league sux and is overmatched against even the worst of DL's......at least that is what I can take when I apply it to the fact that every single OL in the league over the course of a year has a RB stopped for no gain at some point in the season....at least I think this would be a true assessment.

You oversimplify the situation. Yes the OL knows the snap count and usually the DL doesn't, but that is like saying the WR knows where the ball is heading to and the DB doesn't so the WR should catch every pass......there is more to it than that.....and a big part of the more to it is the RUNNING BACK. If it wasn't so, then why would teams have a specific RB designated as a short yardage back.....as this thread was initially querying who that should be for the Pats.

This will play itself out early in the season when Maroney gets his chances. If he fails, and nobody on this board wants that to happen, just put the majority of the blame where it should be, I know BB will. What should end the discussion if there are problems on short yardage is who does BB have in the backfield week 6 on 3rd and inches.....if it is Morris, then I would guess that BB thinks Maroney could be lacking in the short yardage department.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

.....as this thread was initially querying who that should be for the Pats.

As the OP, I can say that was not the question I was trying to ask.

The question I was trying to ask is--in this situation--what would *you* try to get the ball in the end zone, assuming you essentially had a no-harm-no-foul chance at it (hence 1st and goal as opposed to 3rd and goal or 4th and goal).

 

[dryheat44]

From your quote, I would guess that every single OL in the league sux and is overmatched against even the worst of DL's......at least that is what I can take when I apply it to the fact that every single OL in the league over the course of a year has a RB stopped for no gain at some point in the season....at least I think this would be a true assessment.

Wow. What a bunch of f'ing literalists we have. Yes. That's exactly what I mean. Brady sucks because I've seen him throw an interception. And Bruschi sucks because he's missed a tackle. Furthermore, Belichick sucks because he's not undefeated, and, in fact Jerry Rice and Jim Brown sucked because they didn't get touchdowns every play. In fact, everybody who's ever played football, or any other sport, sucks.

Come on Man. Nobody is expected to win every battle. Nobody. The offense is playing against professionals on the other side.

It takes a very bullheaded man to go from "If there is a defender past the line of scrimmage on a running play it's the O-line's fault" to "Every O-line sucks because a running back gets hit behind the line of scrimmage". That's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

there is more to it than that.....and a big part of the more to it is the RUNNING BACK.

I don't care who the running back is. If he gets the handoff and is hit immediately, it is not his fault. That was my entire point from Go. I don't care if it's Maroney, Dillon, Emmit Smith or me. That's a clear missed or failed assignment on the O-line's part.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

As the OP, I can say that was not the question I was trying to ask.

The question I was trying to ask is--in this situation--what would *you* try to get the ball in the end zone, assuming you essentially had a no-harm-no-foul chance at it (hence 1st and goal as opposed to 3rd and goal or 4th and goal).

Hey....OP or not....don't tell us what your original thought was when the thread was already semi-hijacked

But with that the case of the original intent.....easy....Brady to Moss on a fade route.

 

[mgteich]

Usually, I try not to continue the back and forth once we have stated our positions, but here your analysis is so wrong that it goes to the heart of developing short yardage defenses and offenses. Some conclusions that fall certainly from your positon:

1) Light should be cut.
2) Dante should be fired.
We have a continuing issue with regard to lack of success in short yardage runs on the left side. Certainly, one yard is not automatic by any means. A TE or blocking back has helped on blitz pickup, but we still rarely run short yardage to the left side.
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3) Teams are idiots to have a roster spots for the likes of Crockett or Bettis or others whose specialty is short yardage. Obviously they don't understand football. They should use the moey to sign up better linemen.
4) We shouldn't celebrate the DL stopping a 4th and one. We should simply note that the OL didn't do its job.
========================================================

Short yardage situations is one the very most important situations in the game. There are many, many times that teams fail one third and fourth and one. Of course, this happens least with top OL's, but that doesn't emant that the yard is automatic, or should be. There are defenses that are much, much better than others at short-yardage defense.
========================================================

In the end, IMHO, your analysis is shallow, and ignores many of the realities of the situation.

I'll wager every offensive line coach feels otherwise. The O-line knowns the snap count, the D-line doesn't. There's no reason the O-line shouldn't get a one -yard surge on a rushing play unless they're completely overmatched.

 

[dryheat44]

Usually, I try not to continue the back and forth once we have stated our positions, but here your analysis is so wrong that it goes to the heart of developing short yardage defenses and offenses. Some conclusions that fall certainly from your positon:

1) Light should be cut.
2) Dante should be fired.

Let's stop there for now. Untrue. Light should be cut if he can be improved, and if it makes financial sense to do so. Number two is just way out there. The Patriots don't use (many) high draft picks on O-lineman. Dante does a phenomenal job of preparing low-round picks/free agents into passable performers. Guys like Gorin, Ashworth, Neal, Yates, etc.

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3) Teams are idiots to have a roster spots for the likes of Crockett or Bettis or others whose specialty is short yardage. Obviously they don't understand football. They should use the moey to sign up better linemen.
4) We shouldn't celebrate the DL stopping a 4th and one. We should simply note that the OL didn't do its job.

I'd like to think Bettis, he of the #5 or so all-time rushing yardage, was more than a short yardage specialist. Would you be happy if the Patriots blew a roster spot on Zack Crockett? or any other player in the league who only comes in on short yardage? I sure wouldn't. Although to be fair, I believe Crockett is also a valuable special teamer. In sum, yes, I believe it is a waste of a roster spot to carry a guy who is only used to carry the ball in short yardage situations. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that describes any player in the league.

The two sides of #4 are not mutually exclusive. You should absolutely celebrate the DL stuffing a 4th and 1 rush. It means they overcame the odds and there was a great play involved. The head coach on the other side probably doesn't see it that way. Do you think if Belichick called Maroney up the middle on 4th and 1 and he got stuffed that he would shrug his shoulders and say, "Oh well, that was a great play by the defense?" I'm willing to bit he'd rip the O-lineman who missed/failed his assignment a new one. Like I said my last post, nobody wins every battle, nor should they be expected to. However, on any given play where the offense has a clear advantage, they SHOULD win.

========================================================

Short yardage situations is one the very most important situations in the game. There are many, many times that teams fail one third and fourth and one. Of course, this happens least with top OL's, but that doesn't emant that the yard is automatic, or should be. There are defenses that are much, much better than others at short-yardage defense.
========================================================

In the end, IMHO, your analysis is shallow, and ignores many of the realities of the situation.

I give up. My ENTIRE POINT, if you go back to the beginning of this part, was that if Maroney gets hit in the backfield on a 4th and 1 play, that the Offensive Linemen should get the blame. (the poster whom I was responding to said that he would blame Maroney in that situation, and not the line). If you disagree with that, then fine, we disagree.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, we disagree.

1) Dante is working with a 2nd and 1st round draft pick on the left side, and a 3rd and 5th as backups. I think that he is doing fine. I am fine with performance of Light, Kaycur, Britt and Mankins. You are not. If dante cannot perform acceptably with group, he is NOT the great coach we make him out to be. Gorin and Ashworth were not successes. Yates is a backup. Neal is a great success (but with several to-be-expected injuries). Koppen and Hochstein are also great sucesses. If these OL's are so bad, the team was deliquent (negligent?) in not drafting Joe Staley at 28.

2) Bettis was a short yardage player for the last two years of his career, and yes, I would love to use a roster spot for a player like Crockett. And yes, the #5 running back needs to play special teams.

3) What do I think we should say if Maroney was continually running up the middle and getting stuffed? You're right. Perhaps bb would protect the sensibilities of the his first round draft choice. And yes, he would berate the line for not allowing the designated play to work. Surely if they did their job, a RB could waltz in.

HOWEVER, bb just might question whether Maroney is the right RB to be running on 4th and one. If he's the best we have, then the coaches have made their decision. That means that we change the blocking schemes, and do all we can to have Maroney run toward the line instead of sideways.

My opinion, with which you seem to disagree, is that there exist running backs, MANY running backs, who are more able than others to get that crucial yard, BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN LEVEL SKILL. There are indeed running backs that are better than others in short down situations.

In the past few years, give to Bettis, to Crockett, to Alstott and you would be much more likely to get the one yard than if you were to give it to a player like Maroney. This is NOT a dis on Maroney. He, as Addai, were great picks. I just don't think he should be depended on to be a short yardage back.

BOTTOM LINE
We disagree. I would expect my RB to gain one yard with our OL against almost any defense, presuming that any blitz was picked up and the defense didn't overload the line. I strongly believe that our OL is more than adequate for short yardage and any situations. Personally, I find it sad that dante and the FO put together a line for the next five years, only to have to change the blocking scheme to accomodate the chosen running back. ANd finally, I do indeed believe that Dante is best position coach in the NFL.

Let's stop there for now. Untrue. Light should be cut if he can be improved, and if it makes financial sense to do so. Number two is just way out there. The Patriots don't use (many) high draft picks on O-lineman. Dante does a phenomenal job of preparing low-round picks/free agents into passable performers. Guys like Gorin, Ashworth, Neal, Yates, etc.


I'd like to think Bettis, he of the #5 or so all-time rushing yardage, was more than a short yardage specialist. Would you be happy if the Patriots blew a roster spot on Zack Crockett? or any other player in the league who only comes in on short yardage? I sure wouldn't. Although to be fair, I believe Crockett is also a valuable special teamer. In sum, yes, I believe it is a waste of a roster spot to carry a guy who is only used to carry the ball in short yardage situations. But you'll have a hard time convincing me that describes any player in the league.

The two sides of #4 are not mutually exclusive. You should absolutely celebrate the DL stuffing a 4th and 1 rush. It means they overcame the odds and there was a great play involved. The head coach on the other side probably doesn't see it that way. Do you think if Belichick called Maroney up the middle on 4th and 1 and he got stuffed that he would shrug his shoulders and say, "Oh well, that was a great play by the defense?" I'm willing to bit he'd rip the O-lineman who missed/failed his assignment a new one. Like I said my last post, nobody wins every battle, nor should they be expected to. However, on any given play where the offense has a clear advantage, they SHOULD win.

I give up. My ENTIRE POINT, if you go back to the beginning of this part, was that if Maroney gets hit in the backfield on a 4th and 1 play, that the Offensive Linemen should get the blame. (the poster whom I was responding to said that he would blame Maroney in that situation, and not the line). If you disagree with that, then fine, we disagree.

 

[stcjones]

give the ball to Evans

Disagree.....Evans was pretty awful in short yardage do or dies last year....generally getting stuffed and falling down.......I am not sure yet that he is a lock to make this team yet......on a run play....got to go to Maroney with Big Sey blocking for him......but look for alot of play actions passes at goal line this year with the receiving weapons we have....should be a really fun year.......GO PATS!!!!