Bedard on Pats DB Coaching

[Brady6]

As is often the case, you're incorrect.

I sincerely doubt that you would want to compare our track records on being “right or wrong”. Ironically you are attempting to discredit what I said by portraying some historical inconsistencies in what I say just like you did with Bedard, which furthers my belief that you lack any reasonable argument to discredit the belief that the DBs are not developed by the coaching staff effectively.

 

[Jackson 2]

If Bedard or anyone else wants to impugn the DB coaching staff for an apparent lack of growth by those under their tutelage, go at it. But, in my opinion, they're missing a larger issue which has directly affected the performance of DBs going back at least 10 years: the consistent lack of an effective pass rush. It a still exists today, but is only mitigated by the presence of 2 imported CBs who have elevated everyone's performance on defense. One could, in fact, reasonably argue that the Patriots' DBs have over performed in the past 10 years because of a feeble pass rush. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I'm just saying that the lack of a good pass defense is a matter that is far more complex than poor DB coaching.

 

[Jackson 2]

I sincerely doubt that you would want to compare our track records on being “right or wrong”. Ironically you are attempting to discredit what I said by portraying some historical inconsistencies in what I say just like you did with Bedard, which furthers my belief that you lack any reasonable argument to discredit the belief that the DBs are not developed by the coaching staff effectively.

Look, my comment about your correctness track record was a knee jerk reaction for which I apologize. I'd just ask that you consider my post above about the long-standing lack of a pass rush as being a major contributor to the problem.

 

[RayClay]

to me it seems like a disconnect......can't make a fine stew with a bunch of gristle

looking at miguel's list of DBs, one can't help but notice the freakish number of reaches

mccourty and chung are the only ones who weren't, and guess what? they're on the field!!!

many of them go backwards from when they first step on the field.

one could say something similar about the WRs.......we've had a chorus line of those, too........Dobson was actually the most pathetic player of them all Sunday.......4 plays and a gimpy hammy.......

Samuel was a reach in the 4th round? I thought Hobbs played better than most (probably) low 3rd round corners. Why do people expect to automatically get starting corners where we draft?

 

[Oswlek]

Also, i've been dealing with this problem for sometime here since I became a poster early this year and i want to get it off my chest : if you want to compliment anything within the pats organization, you are considered a good poster. However, If you critiscize them, you are called chicken little or worse. Jesus, the pats have its faults too, just because someone doesn't jump it with the "all is good" status 100% of the time, doesnt mean that all his critics are invalid.

I can't fathom how anyone could come to this conclusion. This is a Pats fan board, everything is fair game... but that's the rub, "fair." You want to call Tavon Wilson a bad draft pick? Go right ahead. You want to say NE hasn't had much success at drafting a WR lately? Be my guest. But if you play the "Bill the coach vs. Bill the GM" card, you'll need to work harder to justify that claim (here's a hint: you can't).

Reasonable negativity is fine. Welcome, even. Poorly substantiated whining is not. You've apparently mistaken the latter for the former.

 

[Oswlek]

Samuel was a reach in the 4th round? I thought Hobbs played better than most (probably) low 3rd round corners. Why do people expect to automatically get starting corners where we draft?

Yeah, and the funny thing is that both Chung and McCourty were called reaches at the time.

 

[luuked]

We have the same DB coach (Josh Boyer) as we had in 2011. The only difference is they signed Revis the top #1 CB in the NFL and Browner probably the top #2 CB in the NFL. It has nothing to do with Aaron Rodgers it has to do with players like Dennard, Ryan, Wilson, Harmon and others showing promise early in their careers and regressing during their time in the NFL. A player should improve from their rookie seasons; tell me the last time a Patriots DB got better in his second season?

I know that Boyer was here in 2011, which is why I made the time machine joke.

My main issue with all of this talk is that it is born out of ONE game against GB. There was no whisper from Bedard or anyone else before this game. In fact, everyone was praising the depth in our secondary. If other teams down the line are be able to exploit our lower DBs similarly as GB, then I think the issue is worth discussing. Until then this is as premature as asking BB about a quarterback change after the KC game.

Regarding the lack of improvement. I don't know if it is that easy. What other team has consistently drafted good corners late / in later rounds ? Yes, we all know Sherman was drafted late, but how many corners did Seattle get right before that ? There is a reason why top flight CBs are a highly paid commodity.

Am I saying Boyer is a great coach ? No. But I honestly don't know what the benchmark is supposed to be. Who is a good CB coach ? The Jets have to work with similar crap in their secondary this season as we did in 2011 and I don't see them being better.

 

[luuked]

I agree with Bedard. Dennard and Ryan were great last year, but they do seem to have regressed. Not to mentiom the rest of the listed players above. We do have a problem developing CBs.

Playing time is a premium in this league. With Revis and Browner getting the majority of the snaps I am not surprised that they are regressing a bit. Nothing is as important as game time experience. I would not be surprised if they also are getting fewer snaps in practice. The curse of being deep at a position.

 

[varjao]

If Bedard or anyone else wants to impugn the DB coaching staff for an apparent lack of growth by those under their tutelage, go at it. But, in my opinion, they're missing a larger issue which has directly affected the performance of DBs going back at least 10 years: the consistent lack of an effective pass rush. It a still exists today, but is only mitigated by the presence of 2 imported CBs who have elevated everyone's performance on defense. One could, in fact, reasonably argue that the Patriots' DBs have over performed in the past 10 years because of a feeble pass rush. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I'm just saying that the lack of a good pass defense is a matter that is far more complex than poor DB coaching.

I totally agree with this. People always look to the stats, stats-wise we are ok, but if there's a stat of meaningful sacks we should be below #25.

 

[RayClay]

Since he's now in love with his own nickname, this should be backed up with more photographic evidence. What happens in year 2 that makes the players worse?

Let's not forget that BB has not drafted many DBs high. The ones that he has, he has done OK with. McCourty is a top 5 FS, Merriweather was OK and could have been elite if he took coaching, and Ras-I was a bust.

Not a bad batting average.

Does the coaching staff get any credit for turning Kyle Arrington into one of the better slot CBs in the league?

The only CB with success after busting in NE is Butler.

"The Wet Blanket of Reason" threw himself into the drying machine on this one. In other words, too much spin.

Great post. Butler got beat out by a free agent and i'd still take Arrington over him. He's a mediocre corner. Not saying the Pats had great raft success, but it's within what you expect rolling the dice where they pick. and top cornerbacks are more born than made

Yeah, and the funny thing is that both Chung and McCourty were called reaches at the time.

I'd give it to the draftniks on Tavon Wilson, but I assume someone else was looking for him in the third. Sounds dumb, but our second is almost a third, the guy's still in the league playing teams and I think he has a combination of size and skills (not starting probably) that might be useful down the road.

Either way, drafting from the lower second on down is like putting quarters in a slot machine. I lofe their starters and depth now, even though they didn't go to the magic cornerback school that makes gold from lead.

 

[IllegalContact]

Samuel was a reach in the 4th round? I thought Hobbs played better than most (probably) low 3rd round corners. Why do people expect to automatically get starting corners where we draft?

I wasn't really looking that far back........

but who the f*ck is automatically expecting get starting corners where we draft.

however, it is reasonable to expect that the number of 2nd and 3rd rounders used on corners, that you'd come up with AT LEAST ONE. I mean where was browner drafted?

but I do think there is just as much to the issue that most of these players go backwards after their rookie seasons, so it may have plenty to do with the coaching........mangina anyone?

 

[Miguel]

Surprised a statistician like yourself would post players who's career ended with injuries as someone a coach could improve. All their first round picks are still in the league.

Posted the entire list of draft picks right before I left for work. Given the tenor of this thread I am sure that if I did not someone else who have opined that I had the agenda in doing so,

 

[RayClay]

I wasn't really looking that far back........

but who the f*ck is automatically expecting get starting corners where we draft.

however, it is reasonable to expect that the number of 2nd and 3rd rounders used on corners, that you'd come up with AT LEAST ONE. I mean where was browner drafted?

but I do think there is just as much to the issue that most of these players go backwards after their rookie seasons, so it may have plenty to do with the coaching........mangina anyone?

Browner? you're hoping we draft someone who washes out, goes to Canada for four years, plays for another team then gets suspended and comes back to us 9 years later?

 

[mayoclinic]

Since 2000 the Patriots have drafted 27 defensive backs. How many of them improved during their time on the Patriots?

Year Round Number Player
2014 6 206 Jemea Thomas
2013 3 83 Logan Ryan
2013 3 91 Duron Harmon
2012 2 48 Tavon Wilson
2012 6 197 Nate Ebner
2012 7 224 Alfonzo Dennard
2011 2 33 Ras-I Dowling
2011 7 219 Malcolm Williams
2010 1 27 Devin McCourty
2009 2 34 Patrick Chung
2009 2 41 Darius Butler
2008 2 62 Terrence Wheatley
2008 4 129 Jonathan Wilhite
2007 1 24 Brandon Meriweather
2007 6 202 Mike Richardson
2006 7 229 Willie Andrews
2005 3 84 Ellis Hobbs
2005 4 133 James Sanders
2004 3 95 Guss Scott
2004 4 113 Dexter Reid
2004 7 233 Christian Morton
2003 2 36 Eugene Wilson
2003 4 120 Asante Samuel
2001 3 86 Brock Williams
2001 5 163 Hakim Akbar
2001 6 200 Leonard Myers
2000 6 187 Antwan Harris

Josh Boyer has been with the Pats since 2009 as the DB coach, and as the CB coach since 2012. Hard to blame him for the guys drafted before 2009.

Also, the Pats should probably get credit for developing Kyle Arrington, who was originally signed as a UDFA by Philadelphia in 2008, and who spent 1 season on the TB PS before being signed by the Pats. He is one of the better slot CBs in the league, and almost all of his development has come under Boyer.

From my perspective the Pats have generally drafted CBs with ball skills and movement skills, rather than bigger, more physical CBs. Dennard is probably the most physical CB they've drafted, but he's not that big. Ryan and McCourty had better ball skills, vision and zone coverage skills, than the ability to match up well in press-man coverage. Arrington excels in the slot, but struggles outside. I think they are moving in a more physical direction (Butler is also fairly physical, BTW), but I would generally prefer at least 1 more big CBs who can match up outside with more physical WRs.

 

[IllegalContact]

Posted the entire list of draft picks right before I left for work. Given the tenor of this thread I am sure that if I did not someone else who have opined that I had the agenda in doing so,

My guess is that some believe it is unreasonable to expect 1 starting corner from all those 2nd and 3rd rounders

 

[RayClay]

Posted the entire list of draft picks right before I left for work. Given the tenor of this thread I am sure that if I did not someone else who have opined that I had the agenda in doing so,

I know. Maybe Malcom Williams is still developing. Apparently, he is, with the New Orleans Voodoo.

 

[IllegalContact]

Browner? you're hoping we draft someone who washes out, goes to Canada for four years, plays for another team then gets suspended and comes back to us 9 years later?

and yet he's head and shoulders over the entire list of 2nd and 3rd rounders the pats have drafted......yeah, makes your point even worse

so are you saying it is unreasonable to expect the pats to have generated one starting corner out of all the 2nd and 3rd rounders they have used on the position for the last 6 years? this result is to be expected?

 

[mayoclinic]

Yeah, and the funny thing is that both Chung and McCourty were called reaches at the time.

Mild reaches. Both were considered 2nd round picks at worst, and there was certainly the possibility of McCourty moving into the 1st. Mayo was also a "reach" at #10, as was Vollmer at #58.

Teams "reach" all the the time. They take who they like. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. St. Louis reached for Brian Quick at #33 in 2012, ahead of Alshon Jeffery.

 

[RayClay]

and yet he's head and shoulders over the entire list of 2nd and 3rd rounders the pats have drafted......yeah, makes your point even worse

so are you saying it is unreasonable to expect the pats to have generated one starting corner out of all the 2nd and 3rd rounders they have used on the position for the last 6 years? this result is to be expected?

It's equally as reasonable as not. You don't reliably get starting corners that low, but you might. that's probably why he tried to stockpile picks. His small stakes gambling wasn't successful.

 

[Brady6]

I know that Boyer was here in 2011, which is why I made the time machine joke.

My main issue with all of this talk is that it is born out of ONE game against GB. There was no whisper from Bedard or anyone else before this game. In fact, everyone was praising the depth in our secondary. If other teams down the line are be able to exploit our lower DBs similarly as GB, then I think the issue is worth discussing. Until then this is as premature as asking BB about a quarterback change after the KC game.

Regarding the lack of improvement. I don't know if it is that easy. What other team has consistently drafted good corners late / in later rounds ? Yes, we all know Sherman was drafted late, but how many corners did Seattle get right before that ? There is a reason why top flight CBs are a highly paid commodity.

Am I saying Boyer is a great coach ? No. But I honestly don't know what the benchmark is supposed to be. Who is a good CB coach ? The Jets have to work with similar crap in their secondary this season as we did in 2011 and I don't see them being better.

The issue is most of these players were not late round draft picks:

Logan Ryan #83 overall in 2013
Duron Harmon #91 overall in 2013
Tavon Wilson #48 overall in 2012
Alfonzo Dennard #224 overall in 2012
Ras-I Dowling #33 overall in 2011
Devin McCourty #27 overall in 2010
Pat Chung #34 overall in 2009
Darius Butler #41 overall in 2009
Terrence Wheatley #62 overall in 2008

With the exception of Alfonzo Dennard these players were all top 100 draft picks.