Adam Schefter on WEEI

[Flying Fungi]

I dont think you could find one NFL personell guy who wouldnt laugh out loud at that statement.

Deltha Oneil is lucky to start in the NFL, and wouldn't be #3 on many teams.

My attempt at devil's advocacy should not be construed as an endorsement on my behalf of Deltha O'Neil.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I dont know how the reality that Samuel is a COMPLETE corner is getting lost on everyone.
BB DOES NOT run a defense that makes it easy for a corner to Int a lot of passes.

It's even more amazing how BB can miss all that. If couch potatoes like us can see Samuel's greatness, why can't BB?

 

[Rob0729]

I dont know how the reality that Samuel is a COMPLETE corner is getting lost on everyone.
BB DOES NOT run a defense that makes it easy for a corner to Int a lot of passes. Corners in this defense are required to do everything. I dont think there is a defense in the league that puts more stock in the cb playing force in the running game. You cannot play corner in this D if you are not equally good in man and zone coverage. We play a lot of zone, which negates the Int numbers, but also are as willing as any D to expose corners on an island on key 3rd down plays.
A Patriot corner needs to not get beaten deep, be able to force on the edge vs the run, and have strong zone discipline while playing many complex schemes. (We also ask corners to cover a much wider variety of areas of the field when we play zone than most teams)
Here you must be able to do all of these things well, where many other defenses place a much higher priority on fewer things (i.e. in the Tampa D you must only be good at zone coverage in the cover2 to be an effective corner)

Come on! Belichick's defense makes it very easy on CBs. He made Tyrone Poole look like a Pro Bowler in 2003. Otis Smith looked like a very good CB in 2001. He made Earthwind Moreland look good for a small stretch on the 2004 Super Bowl run. He allowed Troy Brown to be a playmaker as a CB with

The Belichick defense is more about the front seven pressure. When it is there, the secondary looks good. When it isn't, it doesn't. Belichick doesn't like to blitz QB, but he loves to throw different rushing schemes that throws him off balance.

Look at 2005. Samuel and the rest of the CBs were getting picked on on a regular basis. Samuel was very mediocre that year until the front seven improved with the return of Seymour and Bruschi and Vrabel shifting inside.

The fact of the matter is before this season, Samuel was competing with Eugene Wilson for a starting CB position. Hobbs was the #1 CB and the Pats experimented rotating Wilson and Samuel. Samuel was pretty average until the middle of the season and his INT came against a lot of turnover happy QBs like Rex Grossman, Jon Kitna, and Joey Harrington (they are three of the most turnover happy QBs in the league and accounted for six of Samuel's ten regular season INTs).

I think that Samuel is a decent starter who had a good second half of the season last year. Before this season, I was hoping they could find another starter and move him to nickelback. He exceeded my expectations this year (which I was very happy to see), but I still don't think he is a great CB. He still gives up the big play too frequently for my taste. He can still be picked on (Grossman was able to pick on him at times eventhough he gave up three INTs to him).

I don't get this turning Samuel into a shutdown CB though. If Samuel turned down a long term contract averaging $6 million a year around mid-October this past season, not only would people think he was crazy, but the Pats were too for giving him about $2 million a year more than he was worth.

 

[Rob0729]

It's even more amazing how BB can miss all that. If couch potatoes like us can see Samuel's greatness, why can't BB?

Maybe that's why he doesn't see his greatness because it isn't there. He had a great half of a season. Up until mid last year, he was very good nickelback forced to start because of no options.

Perception is greater than reality. No one thought Samuel should be paid anywhere close to top CB money this time last year. Actually, no one was thinking that in mid to late October either. A strong second half of the season and the playoffs have changed people's perceptions of this guy. Up until November he was a pretty average player. He wasn't even considered the best CB on the roster coming into the season.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Maybe that's why he doesn't see his greatness because it isn't there. He had a great half of a season. Up until mid last year, he was very good nickelback forced to start because of no options.

Perception is greater than reality. No one thought Samuel should be paid anywhere close to top CB money this time last year. Actually, no one was thinking that in mid to late October either. A strong second half of the season and the playoffs have changed people's perceptions of this guy. Up until November he was a pretty average player. He wasn't even considered the best CB on the roster coming into the season.

I thought that an outrageously stupid statement, plus a smiley face, would be easily recognised as sarcasm. I guess not

Anyway, I completely agree with you.

 

[Rob0729]

I thought that an outrageously stupid statement, plus a smiley face, would be easily recognised as sarcasm. I guess not

Anyway, I completely agree with you.

Sorry, It's Friday night. My brain is officially off for the weekend.

 

[Canada's #1 Pats Fan]

Some of you are in panic mode. Think about it. If Samuel is having teams fall all over him for that kind of money then where are they? Why aren't they at the table trying to make a trade with the Pats? If this guy is the second coming of Jesus (as some seem to think) then they should be willing to give up at least a first round pick for the guy. This is nothing but a negotiation tactic. He might get an offer and he might not but the Pats aren't going to break the bank if no one else is willing to break the bank ...right? If someone wants to break the bank over Samuel, then break the bank.

Exactly. This whole Asante situation seems to be close to the Branch situation in the sense that the Pats basically said, "OK Deion, go find us a trading partner and yourself a contract that you will like." The Pats were probably somewhat shocked that there was a trading partner. Asante and his agent are probably trying to get the Pats to do the same thing as with Deion - to find a suitable trading partner and a contract that they think is fair value. With Branch, it was the Pats trying to call Deion's bluff. With Asante, I think Asante is trying to get the Pats into the same situation but I think Piolichick has learned from the Deion saga.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Asante has the ball in his court. If Mangini or any other NFL Coach or GM has something to offer, lets hear it. If not, STFU and play.

 

[spacecrime]

Asante has the ball in his court. If Mangini or any other NFL Coach or GM has something to offer, lets hear it. If not, STFU and play.

Well, that's just it. If Asante is one of the top 5 CBs in hte league, why aren't teams lined up to offer appropriate compensation to get him?

Felger and AJ say that no draft pick will be as good as Asante, yet no one is breaking down the doors trying to give up a draft pick. 31 GM's would rather have their draft pick than Asante.

Hey, I would really like to keep him. I think he is great. But if he is that elite, then I'll take the first and second round picks that an elite CB is surely worth.

And if he isn't as good as people think, and no one values him, no worries, mon. I'm just as happy if he stays and plays.

 

[PF1996]

Come on! Belichick's defense makes it very easy on CBs. He made Tyrone Poole look like a Pro Bowler in 2003. Otis Smith looked like a very good CB in 2001. He made Earthwind Moreland look good for a small stretch on the 2004 Super Bowl run. He allowed Troy Brown to be a playmaker as a CB with

The Belichick defense is more about the front seven pressure. When it is there, the secondary looks good. When it isn't, it doesn't. Belichick doesn't like to blitz QB, but he loves to throw different rushing schemes that throws him off balance.

Look at 2005. Samuel and the rest of the CBs were getting picked on on a regular basis. Samuel was very mediocre that year until the front seven improved with the return of Seymour and Bruschi and Vrabel shifting inside.

The fact of the matter is before this season, Samuel was competing with Eugene Wilson for a starting CB position. Hobbs was the #1 CB and the Pats experimented rotating Wilson and Samuel. Samuel was pretty average until the middle of the season and his INT came against a lot of turnover happy QBs like Rex Grossman, Jon Kitna, and Joey Harrington (they are three of the most turnover happy QBs in the league and accounted for six of Samuel's ten regular season INTs).

I think that Samuel is a decent starter who had a good second half of the season last year. Before this season, I was hoping they could find another starter and move him to nickelback. He exceeded my expectations this year (which I was very happy to see), but I still don't think he is a great CB. He still gives up the big play too frequently for my taste. He can still be picked on (Grossman was able to pick on him at times eventhough he gave up three INTs to him).

I don't get this turning Samuel into a shutdown CB though. If Samuel turned down a long term contract averaging $6 million a year around mid-October this past season, not only would people think he was crazy, but the Pats were too for giving him about $2 million a year more than he was worth.

Finally - someone with a memory which goes back further than the 2006 playoffs. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one. I laugh when I read on this board that Samuel is a "top 5 corner". Samuel played like a "top 5 corner" for THREE games. Three good games doesn't make a player a "top 5 corner" particularly when said player's previous seasons were middling at best. I would gladly take the draft picks (assuming at least one high first rounder) for Samuel. I'm extremely leery of paying 6 million or more for a player who had a good second half of a season (playing mostly weak teams).

 

[PatsFan37]

Well, that's just it. If Asante is one of the top 5 CBs in hte league, why aren't teams lined up to offer appropriate compensation to get him?

Felger and AJ say that no draft pick will be as good as Asante, yet no one is breaking down the doors trying to give up a draft pick. 31 GM's would rather have their draft pick than Asante.

Hey, I would really like to keep him. I think he is great. But if he is that elite, then I'll take the first and second round picks that an elite CB is surely worth.

And if he isn't as good as people think, and no one values him, no worries, mon. I'm just as happy if he stays and plays.

I'm sure there would be a few teams willing to give up elite money OR a first rounder. But so far no one wants to give up both. Few players garner that kind of trade. Branch was one of them and Holmgren is about the only guy who thinks (or says he thinks) that was a good deal.

 

[captain stone]

Pay. The. Man.

Besides Samuel and Hobbs, there are Zero reliable, quality CBs in the organization.

"Thanks" to Brady and $eemore, the Play-Out-Your-Rookie-Contract-Before-We-Negotiate horse has left the barn, and is never coming back.

 

[zippo59]

"Thanks" to Brady and $eemore, the Play-Out-Your-Rookie-Contract-Before-We-Negotiate horse has left the barn, and is never coming back.

What does this have to do with anything? Samuel is a free agent. He played out his rookie contract.

 

[BelichickFan]

Pay. The. Man.

He wants $10M a year. If we just "Paid the Man" every time they wanted more money we'd have 12 players on the roster.

 

[captain stone]

He wants $10M a year. If we just "Paid the Man" every time they wanted more money we'd have 12 players on the roster.

What he says he wants, and what he and his representation would be willing to take, may be two different things.

Besides, if this FO had done a better job of drafting DBs (3 in 7 years, plus 1 UDFA), then Samuel wouldn't have the leverage he thinks he has.

 

[DW Toys]

What he says he wants, and what he and his representation would be willing to take, may be two different things.

Besides, if this FO had done a better job of drafting DBs (3 in 7 years, plus 1 UDFA), then Samuel wouldn't have the leverage he thinks he has.

Agreed!
DW Toys

 

[Ring 6]

Well, that's just it. If Asante is one of the top 5 CBs in hte league, why aren't teams lined up to offer appropriate compensation to get him?

Felger and AJ say that no draft pick will be as good as Asante, yet no one is breaking down the doors trying to give up a draft pick. 31 GM's would rather have their draft pick than Asante.

Hey, I would really like to keep him. I think he is great. But if he is that elite, then I'll take the first and second round picks that an elite CB is surely worth.

And if he isn't as good as people think, and no one values him, no worries, mon. I'm just as happy if he stays and plays.

First we dont know whether or not other teams are interested, or what they would offer.
Secondly, for this team, right now, there is no doubt that Samuel will have more value this year, and probably next than anyone we could draft with a pick we got in a trade. Sure you could draft a corner, and possibly end up with a better player long term, but that player will not be more help in winning the SB this year than Asante, simply because Asante is a veteran and the player would be a rookie. If you draft another position, who could possibly upgrade a different position more than the donwgrade we would have at corner?

 

[Ring 6]

First we dont know whether or not other teams are interested, or what they would offer.
Secondly, for this team, right now, there is no doubt that Samuel will have more value this year, and probably next than anyone we could draft with a pick we got in a trade. Sure you could draft a corner, and possibly end up with a better player long term, but that player will not be more help in winning the SB this year than Asante, simply because Asante is a veteran and the player would be a rookie. If you draft another position, who could possibly upgrade a different position more than the donwgrade we would have at corner?

By the way, the cost to us would be the contract. The cost to another team would be the contract PLUS a pick. If Samuel were under contract for another couple of years, the offers would be much greater.

 

[spacecrime]

By the way, the cost to us would be the contract. The cost to another team would be the contract PLUS a pick.

That's why I wonder why anyone would offer a lot to him. But then, I said the same thing about Deion. (I'm still amazed that Seattle gave up a first in order to pay him so much, and even more amazed when The Walrus says he would do it again.)

Every year teams sign rookies to contracts, and four years later these rookies become FAs and change teams. It happens every year. The guy we draft to replace Samuel will undoubtable cause some of us the same angst in four years.

It is not the end of the world. It's the inevitable cycle of the game.

It seems to me that the Pats' success over the years has been at least partially due to their keeping a stable of good backups and strong starters in most roster spots, not having 4-6 super-high paid guys and everyone else JAGs earning under a million.

 

[spacecrime]

He wants $10M a year. If we just "Paid the Man" every time they wanted more money we'd have 12 players on the roster.

10 top players. We'd need the other $20 million to sign 43 UFDAs and JAGs.