More Internal dissension In The War Room?

[Tasco]

Tony Pauline reviews the Patriots draft and has a couple of nuggets that are both interesting and questionable.

On Jamie Collins:

what's the issue with collins in a 4-3? why doesn't he fit there and what are the problems about playing him there? I'm no X&O's guy, so if somebody could explain this to me I'd be thankful.
I watched some vids on him and he seemed to have some difficulties against the run (wasn't that the knock on Jones too when watching videos from his college career if I remember correctly?), that's the only thing that jumped to my amateur eye.

 

[Kontradiction]

I take it this means something?

It means that the article is interesting to me, especially given that I just spent an entire thread debating 684,315,365,764,313,419 members of the forum.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Sounds made up to me.

You know that if this happened, it wouldn't leak anyway, because the Pats treat their management of a sports franchise the way a rogue military junta treats the specs for a uranium enrichment program. Tony Pauline also knows that if he makes it up the Pats won't bother to object publicly, as they never address rumors unless its something big like the cameras thing.

Put yourself in the mind of a Tony Pauline. What easier pick would there be to say there was "war room controversy" about? Duron Harmon! After all, did Kiper and McShay not have him as an UDFA? Oh and throwing in Jamie Collins, that'll make it seem credible!

Yeah right. There's dissention all the time among a team's scouts. Why do we only hear about it now? Smells fishy to me.

 

[manxman2601]

It means that the article is interesting to me, especially given that I just spent an entire thread debating 684,315,365,764,313,419 members of the forum.

I see. Good luck then for round 2

 

[nowayback]

Think about how unfullfilling a job being a scout is. Maybe after 3 yrs with Pats, BB still hasnt chosen any of your suggested picks. You prob dont really care about the Pats, their only satisfaction might be a BB pick failure. For sure they push for their players to be drafted.

 

[BradyFTW!]

what's the issue with collins in a 4-3? why doesn't he fit there and what are the problems about playing him there? I'm no X&O's guy, so if somebody could explain this to me I'd be thankful.
I watched some vids on him and he seemed to have some difficulties against the run (wasn't that the knock on Jones too when watching videos from his college career if I remember correctly?), that's the only thing that jumped to my amateur eye.

The issue is most likely that, while he has experience in 3 and 2 point stances, he lined up primarily as an edge rusher in college. To do that in the NFL, he'd have to be either a 3-4 OLB or a 4-3 DE, and as a 4-3 DE he's likely to get physically dominated on running plays by NFL tackles. He'll need to be a good amount stronger to be able to play on the defensive line, which means that he's probably going to be a 4-3 OLB. On the face of it, it becomes hard to utilize his pass-rushing talents from this position, but who knows what Belichick has in mind for him. Maybe it's as simple as just using him on obvious passing downs, and not worry about teams running at him. Maybe the Pats will rush him on some downs while dropping one of the DEs into coverage to confuse the offensive line.

Hard to say, but I wouldn't be shocked if this signals a longer-term intention to shift back to a 3-4 base, with Collins and Jones ideally being OLBs, Mayo and Hightower at ILB, and Wilfork, Armstead, and a yet-to-be-signed third on the defensive line. If this is the case, I think it'll manifest itself over the next 1-2 years in the form of Belichick stockpiling a lot more DE-DT hybrid types; guys who can two-gap.

 

[Kontradiction]

I see. Good luck then for round 2

No, I'm done with it. Just thought it was an interesting article, though I am taking it with a grain of salt as well.

 

[manxman2601]

No, I'm done with it. Just thought it was an interesting article, though I am taking it with a grain of salt as well.

Agreed on the grain of salt.

As an aside, did you see that two of the UDFAs I liked have got into trouble already. Armonty Bryant has already had a DUI (had problems at college for selling drugs) and Courtney Gardner has already left the Chargers for personal reasons.

I'm done with character risk prospects for next year.

 

[captain stone]

what's the issue with collins in a 4-3? why doesn't he fit there and what are the problems about playing him there? I'm no X&O's guy, so if somebody could explain this to me I'd be thankful.
I watched some vids on him and he seemed to have some difficulties against the run (wasn't that the knock on Jones too when watching videos from his college career if I remember correctly?), that's the only thing that jumped to my amateur eye.

The issue with Collins as a 4-3 OLB is that he has much more experience as a 4-3 DE moving north-south.

Given his documented athleticism, it it possible that he could also successfully play in coverage/space?
Sure it is; he just doesn't have a history of proven performance, yet (I hope).

This is the risk of drafting him at 52 instead of a LB like Arthur Brown, a higher-floor/lower ceiling guy
with proven coverage skills whom Ozzie Newsome chose 4 picks later, or waiting until the 3rd/4th-round picks
and choosing a more traditional 4-3 DE in Alex Okafor or 4-3 OLB in Kaseem Greene (from Rutgers!).

 

[patfanken]

Well Dennard is a year into his NFL career and already facing both a prison sentence and probation. Talib has his own issues and has signed only for a year and Dowling is oft-injured. Our CB depth is far from settled.

That's a hyperbolic statement about Dennard, Manxy. Even in the off chance the six month sentence gets enforced, he won't miss a day of training camp. And for a first time offender with no past history to get more than probation would be a travesty of justice. BOTTOM LINE - There is no way that Dennard's legal past is going to get into the way of his football future.

Talib's issues are much more in the past than likely in the future. They happened, no questioning that, but now we have a 2-3 year period without problems. Talib knows the program he signed up for. I don't see any slip ups while he's in Foxboro.

As to this writer's commentary, I have no problem with it. Like its been said, there are going to be pissed off scouts in every organization. BB's picks of Collins and Harmon make easy targets for stories of discord to sound credible. I don't even mind his grade. There are no spectacular picks there. And if you don't like Collins, like I do, then a C would seem to make sense. Who cares. Any grade now is meaningless.

 

[Jackson 2]

WhoTF is Tony Pauline? When I was in college I dated a Pauline Tony who worked the second shift at BB Shoe in Manchester, NH. Now, SHE had REAL experience in War Rooms...

 

[manxman2601]

That's a hyperbolic statement about Dennard, Manxy. Even in the off chance the six month sentence gets enforced, he won't miss a day of training camp. And for a first time offender with no past history to get more than probation would be a travesty of justice. BOTTOM LINE - There is no way that Dennard's legal past is going to get into the way of his football future.

That was his sentence wasn't it; two years probation and 30 days jail time (h/t Dabruinz)? That wasn't meant as hyperbole, just fact. Also, remember, that in his final Bowl game he got ejected for throwing punches at Alshon Jeffrey. On it's own, not really a problem but in conjunction with his later arrest, it does suggest a lack of self-discipline. I'm hopeful that those are two coincidental lapses but I really don't believe they can be dismissed to such an extent that someone can be 100% certain that it won't happen again as you are suggesting.

People are over-blowing my criticism. I'm not down on Dennard (far from it) - he was a really good pick last year and I'm very hopeful that he'll be good for a long time. All I'm saying is that it's not written in stone yet that he will be.

Talib's issues are much more in the past than likely in the future. They happened, no questioning that, but now we have a 2-3 year period without problems. Talib knows the program he signed up for. I don't see any slip ups while he's in Foxboro.

As to this writer's commentary, I have no problem with it. Like its been said, there are going to be pissed off scouts in every organization. BB's picks of Collins and Harmon make easy targets for stories of discord to sound credible. I don't even mind his grade. There are no spectacular picks there. And if you don't like Collins, like I do, then a C would seem to make sense. Who cares. Any grade now is meaningless.

As for Talib, he was banned last season. Hardly a 2-3 year period without problems. It was enough of a headache for the Bucs that they traded him away, knowing that it was leaving them short at the position. And as with Dennard, I'm hoping that there won't be anymore problems but again am just making the point that with his track record, it's impossible to say with any certainty that there won't be.

I actually like our depth short-term and acknowledge that it could be long-term too. All I'm doing is plating Devil's advocate in noting that there are certainly some longer-term question marks that should be borne in mind. If Dennard plays as well as he did last year, if Dowling stays injury-free and Talib re-signs long-term then along with the addition of Ryan and the re-signing of Arrington, I think we've got one of the better CB corps in the NFL. All I'm saying is that those aren't necessarily a given.

 

[Coach42]

I think as fans the last thing you ever want in your war room is consensus. You should want an environment in which your employees feel comfortable with airing their opinions. Especially during a process which is so subjective. That's how good decisions are made. Taking all of the info, including dissenting opinion, and weighing them out. I don't think this article should bother anyone.

On a side note, the guy only played one year at DE and people are concerned he can only come forward? Was he the worlds worst safety/LB? I haven't seen anything to that effect.

 

[DaBruinz]

The issue is most likely that, while he has experience in 3 and 2 point stances, he lined up primarily as an edge rusher in college. To do that in the NFL, he'd have to be either a 3-4 OLB or a 4-3 DE, and as a 4-3 DE he's likely to get physically dominated on running plays by NFL tackles. He'll need to be a good amount stronger to be able to play on the defensive line, which means that he's probably going to be a 4-3 OLB. On the face of it, it becomes hard to utilize his pass-rushing talents from this position, but who knows what Belichick has in mind for him. Maybe it's as simple as just using him on obvious passing downs, and not worry about teams running at him. Maybe the Pats will rush him on some downs while dropping one of the DEs into coverage to confuse the offensive line.

Hard to say, but I wouldn't be shocked if this signals a longer-term intention to shift back to a 3-4 base, with Collins and Jones ideally being OLBs, Mayo and Hightower at ILB, and Wilfork, Armstead, and a yet-to-be-signed third on the defensive line. If this is the case, I think it'll manifest itself over the next 1-2 years in the form of Belichick stockpiling a lot more DE-DT hybrid types; guys who can two-gap.

Why would Collins get "physically dominated" as a 4-3 DE? Particularly if he's playing the strong side and lining up against a TE more than a OT? His run defense was actually pretty good in college..

 

[mgcolby]

WhoTF is Tony Pauline?

My exact thoughts when I read the name.....

 

[BradyFTW!]

Why would Collins get "physically dominated" as a 4-3 DE? Particularly if he's playing the strong side and lining up against a TE more than a OT? His run defense was actually pretty good in college..

Did you actually watch any of his game film? He strugged a great deal against Nebraska's tackles, for starters, and it should go without saying that on any given Sunday he's going to matched up against better tackles than Nebraska had to offer.

 

[Avenger]

He's a jest fan too, wishfull thinking on his part me thinks.

 

[BritPat]

Did you actually watch any of his game film? He strugged a great deal against Nebraska's tackles, for starters, and it should go without saying that on any given Sunday he's going to matched up against better tackles than Nebraska had to offer.

Yeah, I've watched that film about 10 times myself and to say he struggled is well over the top.

At worst he came out with a draw, especially with a lot of the runs going up the middle. He actually flashed some excellent back-side pursuit in that game.

EDIT: I actually flagged that particular game up on here last week in the thread about him being picked in the Draft and noted how he fared against NFL-style blocking.

EDIT 2: Said post: http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-insane-athlete-thread-page3.html#post3445251

 

[BritPat]

By the way, the sentence which should make you either:

A - Realise immediately that this story has been written for views only

or

B - Realise immediately our scouting department needs a big overhaul

....Is the one where it's suggested our scouts viewed Collins as a Day 3 pick at best. That's just outright nonsense at best - at worst it's downright offensive to the player and to anyone that's actually watched him.

 

[edboc]

The "War Room" this year was :

Bob Kraft
Jonathan Kraft
Bill Belichick
Nick Casserio
Ernie Adams
Jon Robinson (Director of College Scouting)

I think that was it.

Who are these three guys?

Patriots All Access - 5/3/2013