The Official Rounds 2&3 2013 NFL Draft Thread

[DaBruinz]

These last two picks were asinine. DaBruinz, please explain to the non cool aid drinkers why these are good picks.

What's asinine is you thinking that I agree with every pick that the Patriots make. What's more asinine is how you talk our your arse and, when challenged, you avoid, duck and do everything in your power to not answer what is asked of you.

 

[condon84]

They traded down, which gave them a chance to address multiple need positions with top prospects, and then they wasted the opportunity it gave them.

Well, thankfully, there's still the Jets to laugh at.

The bolded was an unfortunate common theme in BB's drafts from 2006-2010. I thought our draft classes of the past two years were good though. But so far this year, BB seemed to morph back circa 06-10.

 

[TyronePoole]

BY picking players who in your evaluation have a chance to make the roster better.

BB & this staff do their own evaluations, they don't use the pooled scouting services.

When they go to draft they have their board which they rly on not what the media thinks of as value.

I laugh at fans who have never seen film on a player determining value for a player and how that player may or may not fit in this roster/system.

I don't know anything about any of these players, ny gues is that 90% of the people commenting don't either. The draft is a chance to see who/what BB thinks the team needs, after the draft and UDFA signings we will have a pretty good idea of what the roster will look like.

what is it that you think the word "value" means exactly?

I too don't claim to have the first clue at having any evaluative prowess. I don't mind people that have preferences and I loathe people that come out with ridiculous proclamations on draft day about busts. But some people need to stop listening to certain blowhards on the radio. "Value" is not a synonym for "bargain." 100% of building a winning team is about value.

 

[TyronePoole]

Why? Because you, in our umpteen years of NFL Scouting, have determined that he's a worthless player without ever having seen him suit up in a Patriots uniform???

jesus, calm down

 

[Rob0729]

Erm... he was drafted to be a CB, which ironically, is still one of our biggest positions of need. It was certainly a demotion in at least the sense he is not good enough to play the position he was drafted to play. That does not mean he won't be a good Safety. It does still indicate a scouting hiccup because that is in no way the place where he was envisioned as a contributor and that means something went awry.

Look, I'm not a hardcore belly-acher here. We've drafted some good players, some bad ones, and everything in between just like every team in the NFL. But these reach picks indicate BB is working under some principle that is not in keeping with basic value logic. And that isn't a good thing. It's not disastrous by any means, but it's not good either. Someone really should step in because he could get these guys AND other guys to try out too if he just wouldn't pull these stunts.

I'm not saying don't take them. I'm saying the way he obtains them is detrimental to the team (probably only slightly). And I still stress that just because a player works out well, it does not necessarily mean THE PICK is good.

That said, we've had a good draft so far. But that pick is absurd, regardless of how the player turns out.

I disagree. When the Pats' defense was elite, the strength of the secondary was arguably at safety, not CB. Even with Law (who lined up opposite JAG). Milloy was the captain of the defensive secondary until 2003 and then Rodney was afterwards. Belichick has been looking for the Rodney replacement for a while with Merriweather than Chung.

McCourty had a solid year at CB last year barring a handful of bad plays at key moments in one two games (which defined his season for his critics). Belichick moved him to stabilize the secondary and that he knew he has the potential to be an elite safety.

 

[patsfan13]

what is it that you think the word "value" means exactly?

I too don't claim to have the first clue at having any evaluative prowess. I don't mind people that have preferences and I loathe people that come out with ridiculous proclamations on draft day about busts. But some people need to stop listening to certain blowhards on the radio. "Value" is not a synonym for "bargain." 100% of building a winning team is about value.

Well by your definition this was a value pick in BB opinion, as to what others think who cares.

 

[Rob0729]

The bolded was an unfortunate common theme in BB's drafts from 2006-2010. I thought our draft classes of the past two years were good though. But so far this year, BB seemed to morph back circa 06-10.

You do realize 2010 is arguably the best draft of Belichick's career?

 

[Deus Irae]

The bolded was an unfortunate common theme in BB's drafts from 2006-2010. I thought our draft classes of the past two years were good though. But so far this year, BB seemed to morph back circa 06-10.

Absolutely, although the problem drafts were 2006-2009, IMO. Maybe the picks work out to be a pack of HOFers, but this is the worst use of picks I can remember this team doing in the Belichick era. Outside of the WR pick (who's got questions of his own), it's as if they are trying to blow the draft.*



* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

 

[TyronePoole]

Well by your definition this was a value pick in BB opinion, as to what others think who cares.

huh? what is a "value pick?" a pick that gives you a good return? that's not my definition that's just THE definition of value.

 

[DaBruinz]

We needed two and we needed a day 1 starter. Dobson better learn fast.

Who says we needed 2 WR? The Pats had 7 WRs before the draft started.

Amendola, Edelman, Jenkins, Jones, Ebert, Aiken and Holmes. The Pats clearly thought that Ebert made enough of a step forward after he returned to the PS to merit being given another look going into this year.

The Patriots will probably carry 5 WRs. Amendola and Edelman are the only two locks. Jenkins and Jones have good shots to earn a spot. So does Dobson. The 4th and 5th spots need to be able to play on special teams. Like for punt returns or kick returns.

Oh, and there could be more veteran cuts coming June 1st. I mention this because there are a lot of teams with very little cap space. Only time will tell, though.

 

[Sfpat]

Even though I know nothing about Harmon nor really about any player available to be drafted, I have to say this is a bad pick. BB and staff must know where a player is rated by the scouting service and thus would know that there would be a 100% chance that this Harmon kid would be available in the 7th round. Value is picking someone in the 7th round whom you think has 3rd round ability, not taking someone whom everyone gives an undraftable grade in the 3rd round.

We know Harmon is a lock to make the roster as BB needs to justify the pick.

 

[RobAllan]

I disagree. When the Pats' defense was elite, the strength of the secondary was arguably at safety, not CB. Even with Law (who lined up opposite JAG). Milloy was the captain of the defensive secondary until 2003 and then Rodney was afterwards. Belichick has been looking for the Rodney replacement for a while with Merriweather than Chung.

McCourty had a solid year at CB last year barring a handful of bad plays at key moments in one two games (which defined his season for his critics). Belichick moved him to stabilize the secondary and that he knew he has the potential to be an elite safety.

He may become an elite safety. He was not drafted to be a safety. Brandon Meriweather and Pat Chung were drafted to be elite safeties. You may notice they are not with the team. This indicates a problem in the draft process. It is not insurmountable, end-of-the-world, etc. But to deny it exists by saying things like "person x worked out" is silly. Especially given my earlier point that sometimes the player and the pick are NOT the same thing.

 

[patsfan13]

He may become an elite safety. He was not drafted to be a safety. Brandon Meriweather and Pat Chung were drafted to be elite safeties. You may notice they are not with the team. This indicates a problem in the draft process. It is not insurmountable, end-of-the-world, etc. But to deny it exists by saying things like "person x worked out" is silly. Especially given my earlier point that sometimes the player and the pick are NOT the same thing.

Well in the case of Meriweather he went to the probowl and then regressed, that doesn't indict the draft/scouting process at all.

 

[condon84]

My point was to show that you were talking out your rear end. You made a claim that Collins numbers didn't stand out. You were wrong. They DID stand out since the tackles and TFLs are similar to that of Jones who benefitted from having the likes of John Jenkins, Kwame Geathers, Baccarri Rambo, and Alec Ogeltree on his team compared to who on Southern Miss? I don't see you mentioning THAT about Jones? That he benefitted from an amazing amount of talent around him. Of course, I also don't see you mentioning that Jones was nearly invisible during the game against Alabama either. Or that Jones played in 2 more games than Collins did.

Now, the difference between Collins and Steward should be obvious. Collins is 6/3 4/8" and 250 lbs. Prototypical size for a 3-4 OLB. His 10 yard split was 1.58. His vertical was a staggering 41 1/2" and his broad jump was 11' 07". Compared to Steward who is 6'0 4/8" tall and 237 lbs (played at 223). Steward had a 34 1/2" vertical and a 10' 02" broadjump. Steward did have a good 10 yard split at 1.62. He'll be a special teamer or maybe end up on a team that uses the smaller type OLBs in the 4-3. He might need to move inside to be an ILB in the 3-4.

My point with Steward was that he played in the same position as Collins, playing in the same conference and against the same competition and accumulating better statistics. And still, he was not drafted in the first 3 rounds. WHy is that? If getting those kinds of numbers in Conference USA, according to you, was impressive, why didn't he get drafted already? It's because it's not as impressive as you think it is because it happened against Conference USA competition.

Had Collin's numbers been against SEC competition, and with the measurables he showed in the combine, he would have been a top 20 pick.

 

[PYPER]

I think sometimes people miss the point when fans get angry at BB too- the question should NOT be whether or not the pick works out. Any pick may or may not work out.

Agreed

The point is the pick itself has value, and especially in a case like this, why not draft someone more conventionally rated AND sign this dude later.

You are assuming to know what each of the 31 teams are going to do. The problem is that you don't. If the Patriots are high on a guy, in all likelihood, there is somebody else who also has the guy on their radar.....Even if the media pundits do not.

You don't need to use a pick to pick up scraps like this. Even IF this guy turns out to be a HOFer, it wouldn't make this a good pick.

Have you really thought this one through? If a 3rd rounder (or any rounder, really) has the ability to become a HOFer, you would pass on him and risk somebody else taking him because some magazine or website you read undervalues his talent? I think you should become the GM of one of our rivals. Seriously, lets make it happen.

These picks always feel like a response to a gradeschool dare. "I dare you to take ...personx... now instead of round 7. I DARE you."

The problem is that you think you know more than you actually do. You're either hopelessly ignorant or a very young fan. Hopefully you'll learn the error of your thought processes one day.

And let's stop using McCourty as an example of a reach that worked. He's only "working out" because he got demoted to a different position where we were thin because Chung didn't work out.

Demoted? BB feels that McCourty is one of his best DB's. The criticism of his play at CB is unwarranted. CB's are often blamed for results that aren't their fault. If a CB is supposed to release his man to a safety and the safety blows the assignment, fans and media often mistakenly blame the CB. Its just another example of perception not equalling reality.

McCourty will continue to play CB and S because he's one of the best we have at either position. Which position he plays more will depend more on the quality of play of the other DB's around him than on his own skills or deficiencies.

Alright, done venting. Liked our other picks, at least.

Hmmmm......Now I'm starting to doubt our other picks. )

 

[DaBruinz]

Yeah, Jones has the potential to be a solid #3 or #4 WR on this team. Not a starter, but could be a good guy off the bench.

I can remember people saying that Welker was a waste of a 2nd round pick before the season ever started. As has been mentioned, Jones put up some pretty decent numbers despite a less than stellar QB. I honestly believe that Jones has the ability to be a Donald Givens type receiver, but with slightly better speed.

Only time will tell, but I think that Jones will probably make the roster.

 

[RobAllan]

On a slightly different note, it is kind of funny. BB obviously understands the innate value of a draft pick. That's why he is SO good at making deals to get more of them. But the way he uses them... I sometimes imagine it's the same thing as Shakespeare having bad penmanship. It's endearing if you're willing to accept it as a balance to the rest of his genius. From a creationist perspective, that might be exactly what it is.

 

[DaBruinz]

Harmon runs a 4.65 40 at 198 pounds.
Collins is a 4.59 at 250 pounds.

Harmon ran a 4.51 at his Pro-Day. Not sure where you're getting the 4.65 from.

BTW, looking at Harmon and what I am reading, I think he finds into what BB is looking for in his safeties. The Left Safety/Right Safety concept instead of SS/FS.

 

[DaBruinz]

Yes, the awesome track record the Patriots have at drafting secondary players should make us all feel better.


Good news, I found a site that rated him, #431 overall, 16th best SS.

He did have 1 interception last year.

NFL Draft - 2013 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com


Share some of what you are smoking with the rest of us.

I put his over under at 3 career interceptions.

He had 5 the year before. Could be that he was being used differently last year or that the opposing teams weren't throwing to his side as much. Stats without context are meaningless..

 

[patsfan13]

huh? what is a "value pick?" a pick that gives you a good return? that's not my definition that's just THE definition of value.

Well BB on Harmon:

Nick Underhill @Nick_Underhill
“You have to take the players that you feel can help your team.”
9 minutes ago

Nick Underhill @Nick_Underhill
BB on Harmon: “Thought it was a good value when we took him. I don’t know how the other teams have their board stacked or anything else.”

So do I believe BB on value or you and the other assorted draftnicks?