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Week 7: Pats win, but what about the defense?


Two things:

1.The defense as a whole seems to lack any kind of imagination. At one time the Pats were know as a team that changed its defense from week to week, an opponent never knew what was coming now its seems very plain. No stunts, blitzes, zone or other wise.

2.Do you think last years DBs were better than this years? I don't, but this years aren't playing as well, and i thought last years couldn't get any worse.
 
Never said that Gregory and Chung are good.

I understand the bloom's off the rose with Chung (to say the least) but I do think he's still in the good/solid/workmanlike category.

Gregory feels like Sanders to me--will never be a star, and there's always a desire to investigate newer guys with more potential upside--but I think the Pats could win with him.
 
The secondary absolutely stinks. It will be our downfall this year if they don't fix the scheme, get some new blood or figure out a way to cover their weaknesses. What good does it do to have a good run defense if third and long always nets a first down? This has been going on for years now, but it is worse this year (did you see the graphic about the Pats giving up the most 20+ yard pass plays in the NFL this year?). Why can't BB fix it? I know our two starting safeties were out yesterday, but it's not like it was any better when they were in there. Also, I don't trust McCourty as far as I can throw him. All the good will he garnered with a nice kick-off-returned-for-a-touchdown was immediately erased when he fumbled immediately after the Jets had tied the score and almost singled handedly lost the game for us. I hope he went by Tom Brady's and Steven Gostowski's lockers after the game and gave them each a kiss, because they deserved it from him. I was shocked when BB put him back in AND allowed him to run out the next two kicks. I don't know why BB thinks he's so great or why he deserved another chance. Either I'm a dunce or McCourty really is all we've got and BB didn't want McCourty to totally lose confidence (I have already done so).

Okay, I am done with the rant. The positives from the game were we actually were able to come back and win the game after the secondary almost gave it away (again) and Gost was able to make TWO clutch kicks. Thanks to TFB, Gost and Ninkovich for getting us the W.
 
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Didn't we say the same thing last year.

Dennard is a rookie in his second game. You saying he already hit his ceiling? Gregory will return. So will Chung. They aren't great, but will help the secondary. Dowling might be finally getting healthy and might get better too.

They are still experimenting with line ups and schemes. This defense and secondary could get significantly better over the season (that doesn't mean they will ever get to be good). It could get worse. It is foolish to say it is never going to get any better.

Matt Chatham was on the radio last night and said they are doing a lot things different yesterday than they did last week including far more man press coverage. That means they are trying to fix things. They could find a formula that works.

Thing is, the secondary didn't improve last year. As a matter of fact, they were the biggest factor in the Patriots losing the Super Bowl. It was the front seven that got stout. Phil Simms noted that much himself after the AFCCG. Dennard, hopefully, will improve. He had a woeful game yesterday but he's young. Chung is simply not good in coverage. He's best used as an in the box safety and will likely be let go in the offseason. Gregory is just a step up from a JAG. Everything considered, it's going to be Dowling and Dennard that we have to pin our hopes on this season.

The most realistic thing to pin your hopes on would be the front seven. THEY are what improved down the stretch in 2011 and really masked a lot of the secondary. They're a younger unit this year that's trying to find it's way. But if they become dominant, it will make a world of difference for the defense. Though the secondary will still be a huge question mark, and could still cost us down the line like they did in 2011, the defense would improve.
 
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The secondary is not going to get better. They are what they are. But the front seven most certainly can...
The personnel are different. Can Jones keep it up and not hit the rookie wall he is playing a lot. Can Hightower be used more as a pass rusher? Mayo too? But this defense is so conservative at this time not sure will see it.
 
The patriots didnt win that game, the jets gave it away.

Once again the 4th qtr up 2 scores, the O couldnt seal it, and the D couldnt make a stop.

The defense made two HUGE stops to win the game. First, after the McCourty fumble, the Pats stoned the Jets on three straight plays, forcing a FG instead of a possible TD. That gave the Patriots life late. Then in OT, they got the big play they needed to seal the win.

Not all is right with the defense, obviously...still a lot of problems. But they did make a couple of gigantic stops on the last two Jets possessions.
 
The secondary is not going to get better. They are what they are. But the front seven most certainly can...

I don't understand your first sentence. The secondary is very young:

Arrington - 4th year
Chung - 4th year
Dennard - rookie
Dowling - 2nd year (essentially a rookie though)
Ebner - rookie
Gregory - 7th year (but didn't play b/c of injury)
McCourty - 3rd year
Moore - 2nd year
Wilson - rookie

Three rookies, and a total of 6 guys in their 3rd year or less. That's a lot of inexperience.

Are you suggesting that young players don't improve? Or at least, *can't* improve?
 
The pass defense is as bad as I've ever seen. We have made two of the worst starting QB's look like All Pros the last two weeks. Look at how wide open these receivers are against are D. The Seahawks receiving core is terrible and the Jets (minus Holmes) is worse. We supposedly have weapons all over the field, but how often are any of our receivers as open as our opponents' have been the last two weeks? I mean, I cannot even count the number of times a Seahawks or Jets receiver had nobody within 5 yards of them.

This has to be a coaching problem. Just look at the paths of McCourty and Kyle Wilson. When McCourty came into the league he was an All Pro and made Plays at every level of the defense. Wilson was the nickel back who we, and everybody else, targeted as much as possible. Yesterday, Wilson is breaking up multiple passes while McCourty has to be moved to safety as he is a liability in coverage at CB. One has been coached up, one has been coached down. I have no idea how else this happens. When was the last time we saw a DB get in this system and make progress as a player? Is any member of our secondary better than when they got to New England?
 
I don't understand your first sentence. The secondary is very young:

Arrington - 4th year
Chung - 4th year
Dennard - rookie
Dowling - 2nd year (essentially a rookie though)
Ebner - rookie
Gregory - 7th year (but didn't play b/c of injury)
McCourty - 3rd year
Moore - 2nd year
Wilson - rookie

Three rookies, and a total of 6 guys in their 3rd year or less. That's a lot of inexperience.

Are you suggesting that young players don't improve? Or at least, *can't* improve?


Don't you find it sad that you listed our entire secondary, and there is no way you can say you have confidence in any one of those players? How many fans of teams in the NFL can say that they zero confidence in every single member of their secondary?
 
I don't understand your first sentence. The secondary is very young:

Arrington - 4th year
Chung - 4th year
Dennard - rookie
Dowling - 2nd year (essentially a rookie though)
Ebner - rookie
Gregory - 7th year (but didn't play b/c of injury)
McCourty - 3rd year
Moore - 2nd year
Wilson - rookie

Three rookies, and a total of 6 guys in their 3rd year or less. That's a lot of inexperience.

Are you suggesting that young players don't improve? Or at least, *can't* improve?

Only Dennard, Dowling, Ebner, and Wilson are all "very young". Two of them might be starters by years end, the other two are back-ups once the full time starters get back. Out of the rest of the secondary, Arrington is awful, Chung is bad in coverage (but good against the run), Gregory has always been the next step up from a JAG his entire career, Moore is only good against smaller receivers that he can physically dominate, and McCourty is still having his struggles.
 
Here is a scary note for you......name me one of the QBs OR WRs in the Past 2 games,1 of which the Pats lost,the other a miracle win ....that will be considered a pro bowl type player or top in its conference.

None?,that is what I thought

Just so the clowns in here who hang their heads high on a victory that was won by the other team throwing it away are all up in arms because not every fan is thrilled about pulling out a win they should have lost.

Coming back on the long plane ride home from Seattle and pulling a loss out of a win should have given this team a sense of urgency to be better,but I didn't see one thing change at Foxboro,almost an identical game plan and garbage secondary play that was only different because Seattle wasn't dumb enough to cough the game away,the Jets were more accommodating.

If 2 QBs who normally never even sniff 250yds and receivers on both teams that no one really knows looked like HOFers isn't alarming enough,I don't know what is.
 
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To the people who simply want to whine and *****. Just SHUT UP already! Your constant whining is getting tiresome. Its like scraping your nail down a chalkboard. If you want to JUST complain, become a Jet fan. They are good at it and you'll be among your own kind. To the people to actually offered some suggestions, there were some good points that are worthy of being discussed. Here are my observations and suggestions

OBSERVATIONS

1. Overall I think the DB coverage has been much closer that last year. Although there were a few glaring plays where no one was around the receiver last night, that has been the exception rather than the rule. The problem too often is that the DB is there, but he just doesn't make the play. Dennard's play where he went from getting the pick or knocking down the ball, to deflecting the ball to the receiver for another 20 yd gain. If I had a general complaint about the DB's that would be it. Its been McCourty's greatest weakness. Being there but not making the play.

2. The injuries to Chung and Gregory hurt more than people realize. You can overcome one guy, but when you lose 2 guys in the secondary, especially at the same position, it causes a lot of dislocation, especially in your sub packages. Haters might summarily dismiss Chung and Gregory, but both are solid (if not outstanding) NFL safeties, and your defense gets better when they are playing

3. The Pats defense isn't getting enough help from their coaches.

I hate saying that. Those guys know SO much more football than we do, and have SO much more information to base their decisions on, its is pure hubris to make such a statement. But given that, what the hell, I'm a fan with a little bit of knowledge, so that gives me the right (even though its wrong ;) )

I watched another game where the Pats seemed to rush just 4 players with no stunts or blitzes. I saw just 2 cases where the Pats blitzed a LB. One time they got great pressure and almost got a sack and another when Spikes Blitzed and got picked up by Mangold and no one else got close. That was it. Other than that the Jet OL got to see the same rush over an over again. This has been going on for 7 weeks now and has to stop;

a. Zone blitzes and overload blitzes both can create pressure without committing large numbers of rushers if that's what your afraid of. Both can cause confusion and uncertainty on the OL. Both can be blocked if the OL is well prepared and has sees it a lot in the course of the game. But used judiciously, they can be a powerful weapon. I know BB and Patricia know how to draw some of these up....they just have chosen not to....for some reason.

b. Stunts, stems and twists. These are designed to free up DLmen, again without using a lot or any extra rushers. We don't seem to do these either.

c. We need to do a better job with the personnel

1. Front 7

a. As was suggested earlier Spikes has no business on the field when a pass is deemed eminent
b. The combination of Cunningham and Ninko need to be on the field more
c. We need to rush 5 more often like 10% of the time
d. Bringing the house once or twice a game CAN be a viable and effective option.
e. Maybe its time to see what Scott and Bequette can or cannot do, even if its as inside rushers

2. DB's
a. I like what I see from Dennard and needs to see more play.
b. This was Dowling's best game of his career, so hopefully his star is on the rise again.
c. Until Gregory is back, I would reluctantly keep McCourty at FS. There is just no one else who can do the job right now. However once he's healthy, I'd want McCourty at CB. I think he's a very good one, just an unfinished product.
d. DI's suggestion DB suggestion was a good one until Gregory is healthy. Then I'd move McCourty back to CB.

Ultimately I think at this point I'd like to see us get to the point where McCourty and Dowling are the 2 outside CB's, with Dennard and Arrington the nickel and dime guys, and have Chung, Gregory and Wilson being used equally in various packages. I think that could eventually develop into a solid group as the season goes on.
 
Only Dennard, Dowling, Ebner, and Wilson are all "very young". Two of them might be starters by years end, the other two are back-ups once the full time starters get back. Out of the rest of the secondary, Arrington is awful, Chung is bad in coverage (but good against the run), Gregory has always been the next step up from a JAG his entire career, Moore is only good against smaller receivers that he can physically dominate, and McCourty is still having his struggles.

The point is that it's a really young group as a whole, and with good coaching, young players tend to improve. You made it sound like there's no chance for these guys to get better.
 
Neither Chung nor Gregory are answers although I'd much rather see the D of Wilson/Gregory at Safety and McCourty and Dennard at CB but if you cannot do that then move McCourty of safety, which they did but play Moore or Dowling at the other CB. Arrington is just not playing well. Also how about a corner blitz or two?!!?
 
The point is that it's a really young group as a whole, and with good coaching, young players tend to improve. You made it sound like there's no chance for these guys to get better.

Well they cannot get worse...thats a good thing.
 
The point is that it's a really young group as a whole, and with good coaching, young players tend to improve. You made it sound like there's no chance for these guys to get better.

Aside from a couple of guys in that group who have a real chance to contribute THIS YEAR, I don't see it. IMO, the best option for the defense to improve will be for the front seven to begin smacking people around at the line of scrimmage.
 
The point is that it's a really young group as a whole, and with good coaching, young players tend to improve. You made it sound like there's no chance for these guys to get better.

Believe it or not,I think the playmaker who should be out there more often is.....Sterling Moore

The guy knows how to strip the ball from WRs,we saw it in last years AFCCG and we saw it again this year on the Manning bomb to Thomas when he knocked it out.

Moore is a playmaker and has been closer in man to man coverage than the others when he has been out there,I have no idea why they choose to sit him as much as they do.
 
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I have to agree the lack of blitz in of defensive arsenal just makes the secondary look worse. We almost never even bring the 5th man to pressure the QB this means an already lacking secondary needs to cover their assignments 100% of the time against uncontested QBS which is a lot to ask for

The blitz provides pressure and the pressure causes sacks bad throws or throwaways, it also gives our secondary more of a chance to make plays and doesn't force them into having to have perfect coverage every damn play. We need a better defensive scheme and we need it now
 
I have to agree the lack of blitz in of defensive arsenal just makes the secondary look worse. We almost never even bring the 5th man to pressure the QB this means an already lacking secondary needs to cover their assignments 100% of the time against uncontested QBS which is a lot to ask for

The blitz provides pressure and the pressure causes sacks bad throws or throwaways, it also gives our secondary more of a chance to make plays and doesn't force them into having to have perfect coverage every damn play. We need a better defensive scheme and we need it now

Do you know why they don't blitz?

It's the same reason why Bill has not gone gambling at 4th and short anymore like he used to

Bill has absolutely no confidence in the secondary,if the blitz doesn't get there the secondary is exposed to the max,a blitz that doesn't get there usually results in a TD or a long completion,the same in gambling on 4th and short as it leaves the other team with a short field that they certainly will take advantage of.

Bill isn't dumb,he knows his secondary sucks ......
 
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Do you know why they don't blitz?

It's the same reason why Bill has not gone gambling at 4th and short anymore like he used to

Bill has absolutely no confidence in the secondary,if the blitz doesn't get there the secondary is exposed to the max,a blitz that doesn't get there usually results in a TD or a long completion,the same in gambling on 4th and short as it leaves the other team with a short field that they certainly will take advantage of.

Bill isn't dumb,he knows his secondary sucks ......

We already give up the most 20+ yards play in the NFL. Obviously playing a passive zone is not working, why keep doing it?
 


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