What's the fascination with Julian Edelman?

[Ring 6]

Greg A. Bedard ‏@GregABedard
Patriots played 15 snaps of "12" personnel (1 RB, 2 TEs). Welker played 2 snaps. Edelman played 13.

FWIW. You may be right about the # of runs. In which case maybe it comes down to blocking, and things make a little more sense if we assume the team views Edelman as a better blocker. I still think there has to be a better receiver for that 12 personnel than Edelman. No offense to Edelman, who, again, I think has his value.

If the job is to block, maybe he is the best.
It makes perfect sense that we want to limit Welkers reps.
It makes perfect sense that the game plan, as Lynch said he was told by Brady was to run when they are given the run and throw when they are given the pass.
It makes perfect sense to have a package that Welker is not in on in order to limit his reps.
It makes perfect sense that the package is the 12, given all of the above because teams have consistently dared us to run from that.

A gameplan variation applies to the game. Making more out of it is pointless when it happened one time.

 

[ATippett56]

And here I am thinking we should be sending a fruit basket to Waters.

I would venture that Brian Waters is looking for a Brink's Truck backing up his driveway.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You're moving the goalposts here: I'm merely pointing out that, contrary to your claim, Edelman has been able to make big plays when the Patriots needed them.

Maybe not as consistently as Welker did yesterday, but he did make more than one big play in that Ravens game.

ETA: Let me point out one thing—I'm not saying that the Patriots are 100% infallible in increasing Edelman's playing time, apparently at the expense of Welker's. I'm merely saying that there must be some sort of logical rationale that they feel justifies doing so.

Not moving the goalposts at all - I claimed that Edelman has not shown himself to be a good WR who can consistently make plays when needed. If anything, he's shown that he's not that. One game in 2009 where he made a couple of good plays in a blowout loss doesn't change that. Belichick himself acknowledged that they had nobody after Welker and Moss, and Edelman was one of those nobodies. Granted, he's presumably improved since then, but he still is what he is.

 

[BradyManny]

If the job is to block, maybe he is the best.
It makes perfect sense that we want to limit Welkers reps.
It makes perfect sense that the game plan, as Lynch said he was told by Brady was to run when they are given the run and throw when they are given the pass.
It makes perfect sense to have a package that Welker is not in on in order to limit his reps.
It makes perfect sense that the package is the 12, given all of the above because teams have consistently dared us to run from that.

A gameplan variation applies to the game. Making more out of it is pointless when it happened one time.

All of this is good and true.

But I still have two issues. How much do we want to limit Welker's reps? If Hernandez doesn't go down, we keep playing that 12 personnel 60% of the time or so, and we continue to put Edelman in over Welker at the rate we were, does that make sense? That would really put a damper on Welker's PT at that rate.

Obviously, since Hernandez got hurt, we don't know how things would've stacked up exactly.

And second, is Edelman the best option we have - out of what was available to us in camp - as the #1 at that position in the 12 package?

 

[Ring 6]

All of this is good and true.

But I still have two issues. How much do we want to limit Welker's reps? If Hernandez doesn't go down, we keep playing that 12 personnel 60% of the time or so, and we continue to put Edelman in over Welker at the rate we were, does that make sense? That would really put a damper on Welker's PT at that rate.

Obviously, since Hernandez got hurt, we don't know how things would've stacked up exactly.

And second, is Edelman the best option we have - out of what was available to us in camp - as the #1 at that position in the 12 package?

Its a stupid argument to discuss what would have happened if something didn't happen.
There is no way to know what Welkers pt would have been, so it is foolish to base an argument on what if it would have been different.

Yes, if we want Welker rested when he isn't on the field and we need 2 WRs, Edelman, unfortunately is the best we have.

By the way, if the goal is to limit Welker to 2/3 -3/4 of the snaps, which IIRC was what he did prior to last year anyway, what other formation would you exclude him from?

 

[BradyManny]

By the way, if the goal is to limit Welker to 2/3 -3/4 of the snaps, which IIRC was what he did prior to last year anyway, what other formation would you exclude him from?

The only personnel grouping where Welker wouldn't be with the 1's on my depth chart is any 1WR package, where Lloyd is the only guy. Now, with a healthy Hernandez, in week 1, we had 1WR or less on 20% of snaps.

If you want to create another 10-15% of the snaps where Wes isn't on, sure, the 2WR is a very natural one to go to.

But Welker was held out of 83% of those snaps yesterday (in 2WR packages), which implies to me he was not with the 1's on the depth chart for that personnel grouping. And Brady effectively said as much on his radio appearance this morning. And he did indicate it is to spare Welker for the long haul.

That's all fine. But all I'm saying is, holding Wes out of 83% of those snaps is little rich if you're alternative is Julian Edelman, a guy whose best work has been as a slot guy in a 3WR package.

 

[doesntmatter1]

I have disliked edelman for a long time. He doesn't get open consistently and Brady doesn't look his way when he actually does. Even though that first pass was int from a tip at the line, this seems to always happens when julian is targeted. He is sometimes on the field for a long time without anything coming his way and when it does its an int or incompletion. All he has is bubble screens that the defense sees coming a mile away.

This may seem over the top, but i feel he is the only pat wideout ever to not be able to catch an over the shoulder bomb 40 plus yards down the field in single coverage against the slowest corner like a deltha oneal etc.

 

[Mainefan]

Even though that first pass was int from a tip at the line, this seems to always happens when julian is targeted. He is sometimes on the field for a long time without anything coming his way and when it does its an int or incompletion. All he has is bubble screens that the defense sees coming a mile away.

This may seem over the top,.

Did you notice that he was targeted five times yesterday and caught four passes. Brandon Lloyd didn't do as well. And to hint that Edelman had anything to do with the tipped interception borders on the dishonest. I don't understand your prejudice toward Edelman. Over the top? Yes, and odd to boot.

 

[Ring 6]

The only personnel grouping where Welker wouldn't be with the 1's on my depth chart is any 1WR package, where Lloyd is the only guy. Now, with a healthy Hernandez, in week 1, we had 1WR or less on 20% of snaps.

That wouldn't limit his snaps if we dont run that set which it seems we didnt.

If you want to create another 10-15% of the snaps where Wes isn't on, sure, the 2WR is a very natural one to go to.

That seems to be the plan.

But Welker was held out of 83% of those snaps yesterday (in 2WR packages), which implies to me he was not with the 1's on the depth chart for that personnel grouping.

Right, that was the grouping he was left off in order to keep his snaps down, if we believe that was the plan.

And Brady effectively said as much on his radio appearance this morning. And he did indicate it is to spare Welker for the long haul.

Correct

That's all fine. But all I'm saying is, holding Wes out of 83% of those snaps is little rich if you're alternative is Julian Edelman, a guy whose best work has been as a slot guy in a 3WR package.

You are missing the point.
If you don't leave him off the 2WR sets then he plays 75 snaps yesterday.

 

[RIpats88]

what i dont get is, if the Patriots offensive plan is to run alot more, wouldnt you want the better blocker out there?...and in turn wouldnt that limit welkers reps??....if the gameplan was for brady to drop back 40-45 times and they were playing edelman over welker I think it would be a legit question..

but they are looking more at 50%run 50% pass ratio this year...

it was mentioned somewhere on the radio that alot of Ridleys runs came with Edelman out there sealing the edge...are you gonna throw welker out there for those blocks?

no obviously in a passing situation you are going to want welker out there, and he was when the pats went into their no-huddle drive

funny how last year everyone complained that the offense was too reliant on welker, and this year its a bad thing that its not still reliant on him

 

[patsinthesnow]

It's just plain stupid. Not necessarily limiting Welker's snaps, but giving Edelman 75 snaps! Julian ******* Edelman should not be taking that many snaps in this offense.

 

[RIpats88]

It's just plain stupid. Not necessarily limiting Welker's snaps, but giving Edelman 75 snaps! Julian ******* Edelman should not be taking that many snaps in this offense.

considering hernandez was out 90% of the game and we had no other WR's dressed he pretty much had to play that many snaps..

a bigger question would be why the pats cut their WR depth that was brought in to limit the effect of injuries like this..

 

[Deus Irae]

...funny how last year everyone complained that the offense was too reliant on welker, and this year its a bad thing that its not still reliant on him

What I remember was people saying that the team needed an outside/downfield threat, and that the team was too reliant on the pass to the middle of the field. It wasn't specific to Welker, and it certainly wasn't with the idea of replacing Welker with Edelman.

 

[patsinthesnow]

considering hernandez was out 90% of the game and we had no other WR's dressed he pretty much had to play that many snaps..

a bigger question would be why the pats cut their WR depth that was brought in to limit the effect of injuries like this..

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Deion or Jabar would of made way better use of those snaps, or a young developing WR, o wait....

 

[DocHoliday]

Also worth noting:

Wes Welker: 5'9 185 lbs

Julian Edelman: 5'10 198 lbs

Definitely fits into the narrative of Edelman being a better blocker.

 

[mgteich]

2012
Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, Salas

2011
Welker, Branch, Ochocinco, Edelman

I don't the reduction in R depth of which you speak. Edelman beat out Branch, Gaffney and Stallworth for the #3 WR position. Salas beat them out for the 4th WR position, the one that often a developmental WR spot, and is also inactive if the player isn't a top STer.

====================

I don't understand why there is such angst about the loss of Branch. He couldn't beat out Edelman. It is really that simple. I DO AGREE with most of you that I would like to see an additional wide receiver signed for depth now that Hernandez is injured. But make no mistake, such a player might very well be inactive.

a bigger question would be why the pats cut their WR depth that was brought in to limit the effect of injuries like this..

 

[ausbacker]

Welker > every receiver on the Patriots roster.

 

[Deus Irae]

...I don't understand why there is such angst about the loss of Branch. He couldn't beat out Edelman. It is really that simple. I DO AGREE with most of you that I would like to see an additional wide receiver signed for depth now that Hernandez is injured. But make no mistake, such a player might very well be inactive.

By your logic here, Sanders and Meriweather couldn't beat out Sergio Brown so there should have been no angst about the safety position last year.

 

[Sfpat]

I have disliked edelman for a long time. He doesn't get open consistently and Brady doesn't look his way when he actually does. Even though that first pass was int from a tip at the line, this seems to always happens when julian is targeted. He is sometimes on the field for a long time without anything coming his way and when it does its an int or incompletion. All he has is bubble screens that the defense sees coming a mile away.

This may seem over the top, but i feel he is the only pat wideout ever to not be able to catch an over the shoulder bomb 40 plus yards down the field in single coverage against the slowest corner like a deltha oneal etc.

I assume you've reviewed all of the coaches tape to verify this and matched his routes with the play called

 

[ATippett56]

I don't understand why there is such angst about the loss of Branch. He couldn't beat out Edelman. It is really that simple. I DO AGREE with most of you that I would like to see an additional wide receiver signed for depth now that Hernandez is injured. But make no mistake, such a player might very well be inactive.

I don't understand why Lex Hilliard is on the roster, he of only 8 offensive snaps for the season.

I didn't realize Lex Hilliard was such a game breaker.