Grist For The Mill

[sieglo]

Can someone explain to me how our gigantic, beefy O-line couldn't move the pile in the running game versus the Giants fast, undersized D-line?

 

[reflexblue]

Can someone explain to me how our gigantic, beefy O-line couldn't move the pile in the running game versus the Giants fast, undersized D-line?

How often did they try once they came back and made a game of it? I know The Law had an Amazing Three (3) carries.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

How often did they try once they came back and made a game of it? I know The Law had an Amazing Three (3) carries.

Which is evidence enough that if Belichick continues to keep the burden of winning on the shoulders of a 35 year old Brady,this team won't get that extra step and win another Super Bowl.

Its time to change things...Brady needs help on both sides of the ball.

Focus less on Brady and more on the running game and beef up the secondary and then you have a team that is very difficult to beat.

 

[BradyFTW!]

And they all had QBs younger than Brady and had several playmakers and leaders on defense (Sharper,Matthews,Woodson,Osi,Tuck ect) to help with those championships.

Brady will be 35 and there are no consistent playmakers on this defense.....Defensive changes and a move to more run is what ingredients are needed in 2012 to get that extra step on competitors.

We need a playmaker on defense...somewhere,somehow.

There's some young talent on the D, and four picks in the first two rounds in this upcoming draft.

Either way, this idea that the Patriots need to make some huge, systemic shift is just dumb. They were one play from winning the Super Bowl last week, in case you forgot. There are improvements that can and should be made (upgrading individual talent at notable weak spots like CB, WR, S, RB), but we're talking tweaks, not full-scale, philosophical overhauls.

 

[p8ryts]

Amen, Brother!

For a while I've been championing the idea of getting a REAL Fullback for this exact reason. I was hoping Vereen would become our main back and that we'd get serious about running, I wish that would happen.

"How Do We Make This Happen??

We need to run the #$%&ing ball, gentlemen"

I agree that we need to run the ball. I don't know that we need a fullback. We need a back that plays 3 downs so we don't tip our play 95% of the time by running BJGE or passing to DW. Two of the worst plays in the super bowl were 1. Going full house backfield with Polite and running the ball. The Giants had 22 guys at the line of scrimmage. Ok maybe I exaggerate but you get the idea. 2. 8 yard pass play on first down, 2nd down BJGE single back, run left, lose yards, incomplete on third down. That second down play was a perfect play action.

With our tight ends, we just need a version of Joe Gibbs one back offense melded with our passing game. Oh, and maybe we can resurrect John Riggins.

 

[p8ryts]

Can someone explain to me how our gigantic, beefy O-line couldn't move the pile in the running game versus the Giants fast, undersized D-line?

tipping the play by formation.

 

[Snake Eyes]

"How Do We Make This Happen??

We need to run the #$%&ing ball, gentlemen"

I agree that we need to run the ball. I don't know that we need a fullback. We need a back that plays 3 downs so we don't tip our play 95% of the time by running BJGE or passing to DW. Two of the worst plays in the super bowl were 1. Going full house backfield with Polite and running the ball. The Giants had 22 guys at the line of scrimmage. Ok maybe I exaggerate but you get the idea. 2. 8 yard pass play on first down, 2nd down BJGE single back, run left, lose yards, incomplete on third down. That second down play was a perfect play action.

With our tight ends, we just need a version of Joe Gibbs one back offense melded with our passing game. Oh, and maybe we can resurrect John Riggins.

“All warfare is based on deception” – Sun Tzu

I detest when we essentially tell the defense what we’re doing, this is why I want to be able to pass out of run formations and run out of pass formations, Vereen’s skill as a receiver was one of the reasons for my excitement over him, as he’d allow us a lot of flexibility and force defenses to prepare for more things that we could throw at them. One of the keys to a running/passing synthesis is getting a FB who has good hands, even if we line up with a FB and HB in the I-formation, I still want the opposing defense to be worried about a pass.

All that said, why the HELL don’t we run screens anymore? A screen is as lose to a hybrid of a run and a pass, look at how masterfully the Saints do it with Sproles, are you telling me we couldn’t pull that off just fine with Woodhead/Ridley/Vereen?

 

[olschool]

An offence doesn’t need to be 50/50 in order to be “balanced”. The point is to maximize one’s effectiveness, obviously the offense becomes less effective if the defense has to defend less rather than more, so you need to keep them honest but that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to make yourself less effective (season-perspective, not game). The 09 Colts was a VERY pass heavy team and it worked for them, passing was their strength so they might have only needed to run 30% of the time to keep the defense honest, so I don’t think 50/50 split is necessary, just whatever numbers work to give you the best chance of winning.

That said, if we don’t run during the regular season how do we expect to get good at it so that we’ll be effective running in the post-season? Even though we might be able to get 9yds on pass play as opposed to 5yds on a running play, 5yds per play is plenty good enough, and it helps get your team better at running, which you need to do in the playoffs.

Um...Actually 50/50 would be PERFECT balance, I think.

I just think that if they HAVE to run 30 times and pass 30 times, to play a ball control kind of game, they should be able to do it, and not give up after a dozen tries. Just running enough to keep a defense " honest ", sometimes isn't enough.

This offense lives and dies by Brady's arm, and it's become obvious that good defenses have figured out how to handle it.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Gronkowski, Hernandez, Welker, and who else knows who's coming in and people want to play ground and pound? With one of the 2 best Quaterbacks in football?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Gronkowski, Hernandez, Welker, and who else knows who's coming in and people want to play ground and pound? With one of the 2 best Quaterbacks in football?

Naturally. As the Giants 32nd-ranked rushing offense clearly proved, you win the Super Bowl by running the ball.

 

[Patriot Missile]

All that said, why the HELL don’t we run screens anymore? A screen is as lose to a hybrid of a run and a pass, look at how masterfully the Saints do it with Sproles, are you telling me we couldn’t pull that off just fine with Woodhead/Ridley/Vereen?

I don't know. It would add another wrinkle that the opposing defense would have to account for. Actually if they get a deep threat and make the screen part of the game plan again it makes it very difficult to double the Te's or Welker.

 

[Lansdowne]

LOL, I agree with Off The Grid and I've got to repeat myself in saying I love his posting style.

 

[reflexblue]

I don't know. It would add another wrinkle that the opposing defense would have to account for. Actually if they get a deep threat and make the screen part of the game plan again it makes it very difficult to double the Te's or Welker.

Agree the team is so deep into the passing game a good deep threat is needed. When teams clog the middle up they leave the outside to be exploited. Ocho and Branch are just to old and slow at this point. Having a deep threat is the last piece of the puzzle, and could make the passing game really dynamic. That being said on the old patriot teams they had Branch as a deep threat and still played great D and ball control.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Let's not go overboard and expect the team to run the ball 50% of the time. Those days are long gone for any and every team. The Pats passed the ball on 57% of their plays in the previous game against the Ravens, and ran it 43%. Want to know what the league average is? 57%-43%.

So yes, in hindsight perhaps running the ball more often would have made more sense, despite the 16 consecutive completions and two passes that should have been caught. But do you really want to talk the ball out of Gronkowski, Hernandez and Welker's hands that many times over the course of a game?

A little more running? Sure, I'm all for it. But let's hold off on radically changing the entire offense. I would say look at how New Orleans uses their running backs in both the passing game as well as running the ball to get some ideas that can adopted for this team.

1970 is gone and it's not coming back.

 

[Deus Irae]

...All that said, why the HELL don’t we run screens anymore? A screen is as lose to a hybrid of a run and a pass, look at how masterfully the Saints do it with Sproles, are you telling me we couldn’t pull that off just fine with Woodhead/Ridley/Vereen?

Who is supposed to be on the receiving end of the screen passes you're calling for?

 

[Ron Sellers]

(2) DONT DRAFT a DB or WR. Not because we dont need these, but simply because I (and I am sure all of you) know that we are incapable of drafting these 2 positions. I cannot take another Chad Jackson, Bethel Johnson, Terrence Wheatley, Jonathan Wilhite, Darius Butler, Taylor Price, Brandon Tate.

Consider this: in his first ten years with the Patriots, Belichick drafted Dave Stachelski, Arthur Love, Jabari Hollaway, Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Andy Stokes and David Thomas as tight ends, as well as Garrett Mills who was a FB/H-back/TE.

Of all those players the only ones that amounted to anything were Watson and Graham, and neither of them really lived up to first-round pick expectations.

So based on your logic Belichick should have therefore stopped drafting tight ends at that point, and not drafted any tight ends in 2010.

Do you really think that would have been a good idea?

 

[Snake Eyes]

Naturally. As the Giants 32nd-ranked rushing offense clearly proved, you win the Super Bowl by running the ball.

How were their rushing numbers in the post season?

 

[TriplecHamp]

How were their rushing numbers in the post season?

6th in yards per game and 4th in attempts per game, again nothing special.

 

[billdog3484]

Consider this: in his first ten years with the Patriots, Belichick drafted Dave Stachelski, Arthur Love, Jabari Hollaway, Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Andy Stokes and David Thomas as tight ends, as well as Garrett Mills who was a FB/H-back/TE.

Of all those players the only ones that amounted to anything were Watson and Graham, and neither of them really lived up to first-round pick expectations.

So based on your logic Belichick should have therefore stopped drafting tight ends at that point, and not drafted any tight ends in 2010.

Do you really think that would have been a good idea?

Dave Stachelski - 5th Round - 141st Overall
Arthur Love- 6th Round 180th Overall
Jabari Hollaway - 4th Round- 119th Overall
Daniel Graham - 1st Round - 21st Overall
Ben Watson - 1st Round - 32nd Overall
Andy Stokes - 7th round - 255th Overall
David Thomas- 3rd Round - 86th Overall

----------------------------------------------------
Terrance Wheatley - 2nd Round - 62nd Overall
Jonathan Wilhite - 4th Round - 129th Overall
Darius Butler - 2nd Round - 41st Overall
Brandon Tate - 3rd Round - 83rd Overall
Taylor Price -3rd Round - 90th Overall
Bethel Johnson - 2nd Round - 45th Overall
Chad Jackson - 2nd Round 36th Overall

------------------------------------------------

Listen, you can talk all you want about how we wasted picks with Tight Ends. But the comparison of the players I named and the ones you named shows that, with the exception of ONE player, each of the draft picks were selected in the 2nd and 3rd round. The other in the fourth round. Every single one of these players was an absolute bust.

The names you selected were 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th rounders. The others were Ben Watson and Daniel Graham. I mean, call me crazy but these were not busts. These two were good players. 10 years later Graham is still in the league, and Watson signed a very nice deal with the Browns. These are not Hall of Famers by any stretch, but Geez, they were good. Daniel Thomas wasnt great either, but he was ok. Good enough for the Saints to take him away from us. He'd probly still be on our team if not for a dumb penalty vs. the Colts in 08 which cost us a playoff spot.

Your attempt at bashing me is foolish. You use extremes which arent event close. The percentage of "premium picks" used on CBs and WRs vs. TEs isnt a comparison. Especially if you consider Daniel Graham and Watson to be good players, like I, and most people do

 

[Deus Irae]

Dave Stachelski - 5th Round - 141st Overall
Arthur Love- 6th Round 180th Overall
Jabari Hollaway - 4th Round- 119th Overall
Daniel Graham - 1st Round - 21st Overall
Ben Watson - 1st Round - 32nd Overall
Andy Stokes - 7th round - 255th Overall
David Thomas- 3rd Round - 86th Overall

----------------------------------------------------
Terrance Wheatley - 2nd Round - 62nd Overall
Jonathan Wilhite - 4th Round - 129th Overall
Darius Butler - 2nd Round - 41st Overall
Brandon Tate - 3rd Round - 83rd Overall
Taylor Price -3rd Round - 90th Overall
Bethel Johnson - 2nd Round - 45th Overall
Chad Jackson - 2nd Round 36th Overall

------------------------------------------------

Listen, you can talk all you want about how we wasted picks with Tight Ends. But the comparison of the players I named and the ones you named shows that, with the exception of ONE player, each of the draft picks were selected in the 2nd and 3rd round. The other in the fourth round. Every single one of these players was an absolute bust.

The names you selected were 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th rounders. The others were Ben Watson and Daniel Graham. I mean, call me crazy but these were not busts. These two were good players. 10 years later Graham is still in the league, and Watson signed a very nice deal with the Browns. These are not Hall of Famers by any stretch, but Geez, they were good. Daniel Thomas wasnt great either, but he was ok. Good enough for the Saints to take him away from us. He'd probly still be on our team if not for a dumb penalty vs. the Colts in 08 which cost us a playoff spot.

Your attempt at bashing me is foolish. You use extremes which arent event close. The percentage of "premium picks" used on CBs and WRs vs. TEs isnt a comparison. Especially if you consider Daniel Graham and Watson to be good players, like I, and most people do

Graham and Watson were first round picks. Please list all the BB WR or DB first round picks who have gone bust. Obviously McCourty cannot be placed in that category as of now, so please name any others that spring to mind.

If not, your use of Graham and Watson really has no power to convince.