I am frustrated with the "he doesn't fit our scheme" talk

[NewFeep]

I have an opinion to this thread but it doesn't fit the scheme!:bricks:

 

[Off The Grid]

A couple of notes:

The Packers have a world class secondary. Matthews is a force but every sack I have seen with him is a coverage sack.

Has anyone watched the Steelers defense without Polamalu? It's borderline horrendous. In 2009, they had all their pass rushing linebackers healthy and couldn't stop anyone.

Look at all the Steelers who played in the 2005 AFCCG. The reality is that's a very veteran unit who are basically at their window.

Considering the fact that a minority of posters had the Pats winning 10+ games; I think a review of a rebuilding process show be undertaken. Granted the ending was dissapointing, however, 2010 should not be considered a failure nor is there anything that says the rebuild effort needs drastic revisions.

Why treat the valley as the peak?

It's astounding that this team won 14 games with the youth on this team and if you combine the youth, 6 draft picks, with T Warren/Bodden; I don't see where anyone can say the best football is not ahead.

Well said, sir.

The 2010 Patriots look VERY much ~ from a Born Again Dynasty point of view ~ very much like the 1987 Miners.

I expect at LEAST two Super Bowl Championships in the IMMEDIATE future.

And I think that will come to include either a 3 Peat...or a Perfect Season...or BOTH.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Well said, sir.

The 2010 Patriots look VERY much ~ from a Born Again Dynasty point of view ~ very much like the 1987 Miners.

I expect at LEAST two Super Bowl Championships in the IMMEDIATE future.

And I think that will come to include either a 3 Peat...or a Perfect Season...or BOTH.

Even if we go to an 18 game schedule?

 

[WesWelker83]

After watching tonights game I can understand why BB didn't draft Clay Matthews. I watched him on every single snap tonight vs Pitt and he had very little impact on the game outside of a few plays. Matthews got killed tonight in the run game and was responsible for two huge runs where he didn't set the edge in the ground game. He also blew another assignment vs the run when he got pancaked and another play where he couldnt disengage from an OT. He was a complete nonfactor tonight rushing the passer.

Matthews made a nice deflection which almost became a pick and he forced a fumble. Outside of that I didn't see him make that much of an impact.

Matthews also did nothing vs NE as well. I think if you get a huge, elite OT on him like a Vollmer, that he becomes a non factor.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Ian really should activate the rep feature again.

Let me 'splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up...

We need a defense that can stop the run on every down, get the offense into unfavorable down and distance, make the quarterback uncomfortable in the pocket and stop them from converting on 3rd down...turning the ball over whenever the offense makes a mistake.

What are our liabilities?

There is but one path to the championship and it is guarded by 31 teams.

And our assets?

Belichick's brains. Wilfork's strength. McCourty's skill.

That's it? Impossible. If I had 7 months to plan maybe I could come up with something. If we only had some experienced veterans that would be something.

Where did we leave Bodden and Warren?

On the IR I think.

Well why didn't you list that among our assets in the first place? What I wouldn't give for some top college talent.

There we can not help you.

<pulling out six top 100 draft picks> Would this do it?

Where did you get those?

From boneheaded GMs. They fit so nice they said I could keep them.

Alright, alright, help me up. Now I'll need a stud pass rush LB eventually.

Why? You never seem to want one.

True, but that's hardly common knowledge is it? Now there may be problems once we reach the playoffs.

I'll say. How do we stop the run? Once we do, how do we cover the quick pass? Once we cover the quick pass, how do we get to the QB?

Don't pester him. He's had a hard off-season.

Right. Right. Sorry.

 

[Sciz]

After watching tonights game I can understand why BB didn't draft Clay Matthews. I watched him on every single snap tonight vs Pitt and he had very little impact on the game outside of a few plays. Matthews got killed tonight in the run game and was responsible for two huge runs where he didn't set the edge in the ground game. He also blew another assignment vs the run when he got pancaked and another play where he couldnt disengage from an OT. He was a complete nonfactor tonight rushing the passer.

Matthews made a nice deflection which almost became a pick and he forced a fumble. Outside of that I didn't see him make that much of an impact.

Matthews also did nothing vs NE as well. I think if you get a huge, elite OT on him like a Vollmer, that he becomes a non factor.

Exactly. And it's worth mentioning that the deflection that was almost picked was when he was completely unblocked. I'd love to know how many of Matthews' regular season sacks were unblocked or coverage sacks. I'd be willing to bet more than half.

 

[Patriot Missile]

After watching tonights game I can understand why BB didn't draft Clay Matthews. I watched him on every single snap tonight vs Pitt and he had very little impact on the game outside of a few plays. Matthews got killed tonight in the run game and was responsible for two huge runs where he didn't set the edge in the ground game. He also blew another assignment vs the run when he got pancaked and another play where he couldnt disengage from an OT. He was a complete nonfactor tonight rushing the passer.

Matthews made a nice deflection which almost became a pick and he forced a fumble. Outside of that I didn't see him make that much of an impact.

Matthews also did nothing vs NE as well. I think if you get a huge, elite OT on him like a Vollmer, that he becomes a non factor.

I like when guys step up and make plays when you need them the most. 3 tackles, 1 pd and a forced fumble. Only the single greatest defensive play in the Packers 2010 season and maybe in Mathews career as long as he plays. Not to mention his main job was just to spy Roethlisberger to make sure he didn't get out of the pocket. But still managed to get 2 QB pressures anyway. Other than that, not much of an impact.

Keep convincing yourself he wouldn't fit here. I didn't want to draft him, now I am bummed we didn't. Players with motors like his find their way onto the football field and gain playing time in Belichicks system. Their uncanny knack for making plays when you need them most separates themselves into household names. Especially when you can record 24 sacks in your first 2 seasons.

 

[patsfan-1982]

After watching tonights game I can understand why BB didn't draft Clay Matthews. I watched him on every single snap tonight vs Pitt and he had very little impact on the game outside of a few plays. Matthews got killed tonight in the run game and was responsible for two huge runs where he didn't set the edge in the ground game. He also blew another assignment vs the run when he got pancaked and another play where he couldnt disengage from an OT. He was a complete nonfactor tonight rushing the passer.

Matthews made a nice deflection which almost became a pick and he forced a fumble. Outside of that I didn't see him make that much of an impact.

Matthews also did nothing vs NE as well. I think if you get a huge, elite OT on him like a Vollmer, that he becomes a non factor.

they had him spying big ben so he could not get out of the pocket most of the night not just rushing that lead to two sacks... any way you cut it you cant tell me he's not a better OLB then anyone on the pats roster

 

[Sciz]

I think you could make an argument that Matthews would lose early-down snaps to Ninkovich in this scheme. He's that bad at taking on blockers.

 

[Tasco]

If there are so many non-fits strictly in terms of DL & OLB, who are the players that would fit scheme-wise?

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I like when guys step up and make plays when you need them the most. 3 tackles, 1 pd and a forced fumble. Only the single greatest defensive play in the Packers 2010 season and maybe in Mathews career as long as he plays. Not to mention his main job was just to spy Roethlisberger to make sure he didn't get out of the pocket. But still managed to get 2 QB pressures anyway. Other than that, not much of an impact.

Keep convincing yourself he wouldn't fit here. I didn't want to draft him, now I am bummed we didn't. Players with motors like his find their way onto the football field and gain playing time in Belichicks system. Their uncanny knack for making plays when you need them most separates themselves into household names. Especially when you can record 24 sacks in your first 2 seasons.

The point is the Packers secondary makes that defense.

Mathews does not make the secondary.

Would a Mathews be valuable? Sure but expenditure has to come from somewhere. Where would you take resources away? Had Pittsburgh not fell behind what makes you think they wouldn't have won by running on the Packers defense? A fumble can be overcome easier than 21 point deficit.

The Pats goal should be the #1 secondary, a Dline that has 4 guys who can pressure, and smart flexible LB's.

 

[upstater1]

The point is the Packers secondary makes that defense.

Mathews does not make the secondary.

Would a Mathews be valuable? Sure but expenditure has to come from somewhere. Where would you take resources away? Had Pittsburgh not fell behind what makes you think they wouldn't have won by running on the Packers defense? A fumble can be overcome easier than 21 point deficit.

The Pats goal should be the #1 secondary, a Dline that has 4 guys who can pressure, and smart flexible LB's.

amen. after watching last night's game I am completely off of Reiss' suggestion for a pass rusher for sub packages. In a closer game, the Steelers are more patient and they run it down the Packers' throats. That was very telling.

Seymour was an incredibly important piece of the Patriots' puzzle, much more important than I gave him credit for. I knew he was a great stud of course, but having that one guy that can collapse the pocket and allow for an extra man to blitz, that guy is so key.

I concur that having two stud CBs would help the defense immensely, because run stopping is key #1.

Even the guys we have out there currently can't do a good job of setting the edge. Ever watch Tully Banta-Cain? Of course Matthews would be an upgrade over Banta-Cain, but the team obviously needs a guy who can do both.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

amen. after watching last night's game I am completely off of Reiss' suggestion for a pass rusher for sub packages. In a closer game, the Steelers are more patient and they run it down the Packers' throats. That was very telling.

Seymour was an incredibly important piece of the Patriots' puzzle, much more important than I gave him credit for. I knew he was a great stud of course, but having that one guy that can collapse the pocket and allow for an extra man to blitz, that guy is so key.

I concur that having two stud CBs would help the defense immensely, because run stopping is key #1.

Even the guys we have out there currently can't do a good job of setting the edge. Ever watch Tully Banta-Cain? Of course Matthews would be an upgrade over Banta-Cain, but the team obviously needs a guy who can do both.

It's amazing that these pro pass rush specialist types can't figure out that LB's who do many things well can also like.....pressure the QB.

The reality is a pass rusher can be neutralized. Well designed blitz packages are tougher to tackle. Furthermore, elite QB's are effected more by pressure up the middle.

 

[midwestpatsfan]

[QUOTE/]Even the guys we have out there currently can't do a good job of setting the edge. Ever watch Tully Banta-Cain? Of course Matthews would be an upgrade over Banta-Cain, but the team obviously needs a guy who can do both.[/QUOTE]

Right there, that is my point! With the system that is in place, you need guys who can do both, and meet the particular ht. wt. speed requirement. You put that many stipulations on something you end up with nothing.
I was not a Matthews guy either, and he has become a great player. Would he struggle at times in this system, probably. But his potential to make plays probably outweighs the struggles.
I just feel like the patriots are constantly passing on players that have shown elite talent because they may be deficient in other areas specific to the scheme, but then they are forced to play guys like Ninko, Banta-Cain, and mid season free agent pickups. How is that better than a Matthews type even if you do not think his fit is perfect for the system?

 

[UofApatsfan]

It's amazing that these pro pass rush specialist types can't figure out that LB's who do many things well can also like.....pressure the QB.

The reality is a pass rusher can be neutralized. Well designed blitz packages are tougher to tackle. Furthermore, elite QB's are effected more by pressure up the middle.

THIS!!!

As good as Freeney and Mathis are, the Colts have come up short so often because offenses knows where the Colts' pass rush is coming from and they plan around it. A front 7 (preferably a 3-4) that plays as a unit that can disguise blitzes well and confuse the offense is the most effective pass rush in crunch time.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

[QUOTE/]Even the guys we have out there currently can't do a good job of setting the edge. Ever watch Tully Banta-Cain? Of course Matthews would be an upgrade over Banta-Cain, but the team obviously needs a guy who can do both.

Right there, that is my point! With the system that is in place, you need guys who can do both, and meet the particular ht. wt. speed requirement. You put that many stipulations on something you end up with nothing.
I was not a Matthews guy either, and he has become a great player. Would he struggle at times in this system, probably. But his potential to make plays probably outweighs the struggles.
I just feel like the patriots are constantly passing on players that have shown elite talent because they may be deficient in other areas specific to the scheme, but then they are forced to play guys like Ninko, Banta-Cain, and mid season free agent pickups. How is that better than a Matthews type even if you do not think his fit is perfect for the system?[/QUOTE]

The point being is if they had drafted Matthews, other players are not drafted.

Again, what part of "rebuilding" makes you think that the team is "built"? Do you think it's by accident we have 6 picks in the first three rounds? Did you notice Cunningham was drafted last year? A review of the 2010 shows a rookie at OLB.

I think alot of this fanbase is simply not equipped to handle a team rebuilding.

 

[UofApatsfan]

Oh and the superbowl alone should show Pats fans why Mathews isn't on New England. He was a non-factor against the run and was a liability to Green Bay's containment gameplan. Polamalu was also a non-factor. When a team has two weeks to gameplan for a defense that is so dependent on one certain player, that team most of the time will find a way to take that player out of the equation. That is why New England should not try to become a defense that is built around a 13+ sack OLB.

 

[Patriot Missile]

The point is the Packers secondary makes that defense.

Mathews does not make the secondary.

Would a Mathews be valuable? Sure but expenditure has to come from somewhere. Where would you take resources away? Had Pittsburgh not fell behind what makes you think they wouldn't have won by running on the Packers defense? A fumble can be overcome easier than a 21 point deficit.

The Pats goal should be the #1 secondary, a Dline that has 4 guys who can pressure, and smart flexible LB's.

Secondary and Dline work hand in hand. Although their secondary is a big part of their success they wouldn't be so fantastic if teams had all day to throw. Packesr front 7 is formidable. Not stellar, but I would think Raji and Mathews consistently pressuring QB's has a lot to do with the secondaries success. But according to some here they are all coverage sacks lol.

They may be 18th in run defense but they are 5th vs the pass. That is a balance I could live with in today's pass happy offense. I'm pretty sure a large majority of our 3rd down issues were through the air so I am not putting as much effort into shutting down the run as I am getting off the field on 3rd down to QB's that kill us whether it be 3rd and 5 or 3rd and 15. Besides with Warren coming back our run defense instantly improves. A liability against the run? What are Guyton and Nikovich then? Decent, but their recognition skills need work when it comes to the passing game.

I understand what BB is looking for in measurables. 6'5 250, strong enough to set the edge,fast enough to cover in space or rush the passer if called upon. That is a 3 down LB who is a jack of all trades. I get that part. But it is pretty evident that Vrabel does not grow on trees. If they want Vrabel, go sign Woodley come free agency and stop wasting time and draft picks trying to draft one. They had a chance to get Dansby last year who fits the mold exactly too and passed on him, so evidently BB doesn't think it is as big of a need as we do.

If not, get me someone who is a threat to disrupt the passing game and who can cover in space. I'll take 2 of 3 and give up a few more rushing yards along the way.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Since everybody is going to **** on Matthews today and use him as an example of why we shouldn't draft a passrushing linebacker, lets not forget Woodley had a hell of a game.

 

[mcsully]

Oh and the superbowl alone should show Pats fans why Mathews isn't on New England. He was a non-factor against the run and was a liability to Green Bay's containment gameplan. Polamalu was also a non-factor. When a team has two weeks to gameplan for a defense that is so dependent on one certain player, that team most of the time will find a way to take that player out of the equation. That is why New England should not try to become a defense that is built around a 13+ sack OLB.

While I generally am with the belief we need Stout OLB, I found it funny reading that Mathews was a non factor against the run and something about containment..

WTH are you talking about.. He freaking caused the fumble that basically took all momentum away from Pitts..

And to add, Packers dont' contain, they shoot the gap.. Reason why they give up the big plays on the outside..

Polamalu was a non factor not because the Packers staying away from him but attacking him.. Rodgers was on fire and Jennings/Nelson were beasts last night..