Why the lack of BJGE?

[Dufflebagz]

So your game plan against the Jets is slow, clock killing drives and try to beat them with defense in a low scoring game.

Ryan would have bribed you to do that, but you did it for free. It's the same, "find what didn't happen and say, if it did we would have won." Did you forget the early drive with those passes to Gronkowski, moving down the field and setting up the jets D? Just because Brady threw a rare interception, doesn't take away that pass oriented drive was succwsful.

Should we go back in the time machine and run the ball, because we know Crumpler is going to drop an easy TD pass? It's easy and serves no purpose, to look back in hindsight and say we should have run all the time, or brady should have run.

C'mon, Brady threw a pick and Crumpler dropped a bunny. You can't go back in the way back and change history, Sherman and Peabody proved that. We had two touchdowns playing our game, if we executed. We should have been able to adjust to the defense. We did, somewhat, but not soon enough or well enough.

Two early screw ups made it a grind it out game, exactly what Ryan wanted and not at all what we did. The Jets made key plays, we didn't, end of song.

Maybe with a premier RB and a quick receiver more like vintage Branch than the current version, we recover from our mistakes through superior athletic plays, but Ryan was defending the players we have, not a wish list and he had a great game plan.

If they would have used the same gameplan but with some power running involved I think it would have helped. I'm not saying we would have won but BJGE was running hard and getting first downs until he disappeared.

 

[RHbT76]

Why did they put a DB on the line? because they would rather we had no pass options and didn't fear our running game.

That's the freaking point! We had no pass options and they gambled on the fact we wouldn't try running the ball before the game even started.

If we used the run and our surprising, but very limited running backs as the focal point of our offense, we would be executing the game plan Ryan hoped to make us have to do.

Where is the evidence for this. Even if that is true, what difference does that make? You take what the defense gives you.

There's a reason he spent so much time trying to mess up Brady's options and so little respect for our running game.

You know, if somehow, BJ and Woodhead started gouging them for runs of 20 and 30 yards when he left half the line open to them, all he'd need to do is move a DL and/or a linebacker back in place to stop any runs after the initial 3-5 yds, if that.

First a successful running game doesn't require runs of 20-30 yards. Second the Jets had only 4 DL total, and third yes they could have moved up/subbed in LB for run support, but guess what that does? It opens up opportunities for the passing game!

Believe it or not, some teams even put a safety in the box to stop running games they fear. Do you think that happens a lot with Brady, BJ and Woodhead in there?

The jets were using one safety up on the los and one deep for most of the game.

They are wonderful human beings, but both our F.A. running backs benefit from defenses that key on stopping Brady and the passing game. Ryan reportedly had 11 DBs active.

Really? Where have I heard about that before...?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0/727930-why-lack-bjge-page3.html#post2454921

Give any D coordinator the primary job of stopping our running game and it's stopped. I realize BJ is disciplined and goes forward, but he lacks speed, power, and agility compared to great running backs. That's not his fault, he gives 100% of his gawd given talent, but people here have convinced themselves that he went from a non player to Jim Brown or OJ Simpson overnight. It just doesn't happen that way.

And what doesn't get through your skull is the idea isn't to win solely with the running game its to force the defense to stop the run and open up for the pass! Why is that such a hard concept?

No, we aren't go to put up 30 points on the ground with BJGE and Woodhead but we would have worn down their dline, kept their offense off the field, and forced their defense to adjust for the run and open up holes for the passing game. Hell if we had 1 TD in the first half this way we would likely won.

The rest of your post was useless BJGE/Woodhead/Defense bashing.

 

[RayClay]

If they would have used the same gameplan but with some power running involved I think it would have helped. I'm not saying we would have won but BJGE was running hard and getting first downs until he disappeared.

I'm not saying he didn't do his job. The first two drives were a great mix of passing and running and probably should have led to 2 TDs, or 10 points.

Unfortunately, we were soon down 7-3, the jets were dictating tempo (they want a slow clock killing game, they're a defensive team) we're not, this year.

A 7 minute drive isn't what we wanted either, but our options were limited. Obviously, some change in play calling might have been better, knowing we lost, but there's no guarantee Ryan couldn't stop our running game if it got uncorked. I feel he was worried as hell, he couldn't slow down our passing game once we got a rhythm.

We'll never know, but the opposite of what we tried isn't necessarily a successful option, it's just a guess based on our knowing the actual outcome.

No disagreement with you, by the way, just with those that might think BJGE and Woodhead could take over the game, even if Ryan makes adjustments. To me, they are disciplined runners who take advantage of defenses trying to stop Brady and the pass. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not a wrecking crew defenses fear like an Earl Campbell or Corey Dillon.

 

[Patspsycho]

I'm not saying he didn't do his job. The first two drives were a great mix of passing and running and probably should have led to 2 TDs, or 10 points.

Unfortunately, we were soon down 7-3, the jets were dictating tempo (they want a slow clock killing game, they're a defensive team) we're not, this year.

A 7 minute drive isn't what we wanted either, but our options were limited. Obviously, some change in play calling might have been better, knowing we lost, but there's no guarantee Ryan couldn't stop our running game if it got uncorked. I feel he was worried as hell, he couldn't slow down our passing game once we got a rhythm.

We'll never know, but the opposite of what we tried isn't necessarily a successful option, it's just a guess based on our knowing the actual outcome.

No disagreement with you, by the way, just with those that might think BJGE and Woodhead could take over the game, even if Ryan makes adjustments. To me, they are disciplined runners who take advantage of defenses trying to stop Brady and the pass. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not a wrecking crew defenses fear like an Earl Campbell or Corey Dillon.

No defenses want a slow clock-killing offense, and especially not a defense that had only 4 DL. That kind of offense will tire out a unbalanced defense pretty quick. Did you miss the five phony injuries timeout by the Jets, most of which were coincidentally in the 2nd half?

You aren't making valid points- you are basically arguing that BJGE and Woodhead are no Dillion, but what exactly is your point? They were good enough to get us to 14-2, the same record Dillon did. So the bottom line is that BJGE and Woodhead were as effective as Dillon.

The blunt fact is the game-calling was terrible and the coaching was subpar. BB laid out a game-plan that was not followed.

 

[Ring 6]

That's the freaking point! We had no pass options and they gambled on the fact we wouldn't try running the ball before the game even started.



Where is the evidence for this. Even if that is true, what difference does that make? You take what the defense gives you.



First a successful running game doesn't require runs of 20-30 yards. Second the Jets had only 4 DL total, and third yes they could have moved up/subbed in LB for run support, but guess what that does? It opens up opportunities for the passing game!



The jets were using one safety up on the los and one deep for most of the game.



Really? Where have I heard about that before...?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0/727930-why-lack-bjge-page3.html#post2454921



And what doesn't get through your skull is the idea isn't to win solely with the running game its to force the defense to stop the run and open up for the pass! Why is that such a hard concept?

No, we aren't go to put up 30 points on the ground with BJGE and Woodhead but we would have worn down their dline, kept their offense off the field, and forced their defense to adjust for the run and open up holes for the passing game. Hell if we had 1 TD in the first half this way we would likely won.

The rest of your post was useless BJGE/Woodhead/Defense bashing.

Our success created our failure.
Every team we would face in the playoffs knew they had to devote every resource to stopping Brady. Everyone did that in the regular season too. The Jets did it when we beat them 45-3.
We have evolved into an offense that says try as hard as you can to mkae Tom Bradys job impossible if you want to beat us.
Going forward, this team needs to find other ways to win, so that the greatest QB in the league isnt playing into a stacked deck. He beats it most of the time, but sooner or later a game comes up like this one, or like SB 42. You can't really blame the Patriots for doing what worked all year and expecting it to work again. You can blame them for not giving the other team anything else to worry about, and for not having a defense they could trust enough to run the ball when the defense is begging you to, and try to win a 17-14 game.
In some ways this team is very close, in others it has a long way to go.

 

[RayClay]

That's the freaking point! We had no pass options and they gambled on the fact we wouldn't try running the ball before the game even started.

But we did run the ball successfully and passed more successfully two long drives to start the game. We made errors and allowed them a 7-3 lead so they could run, which is what they wanted.

You do realize, it only takes one play for them to shift into a different defense, right? Do you think they are frozen in a gimmick D?

Where is the evidence for this. Even if that is true, what difference does that make? You take what the defense gives you.



First a successful running game doesn't require runs of 20-30 yards. Second the Jets had only 4 DL total, and third yes they could have moved up/subbed in LB for run support, but guess what that does? It opens up opportunities for the passing game!



The jets were using one safety up on the los and one deep for most of the game.



Really? Where have I heard about that before...?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...0/727930-why-lack-bjge-page3.html#post2454921



And what doesn't get through your skull is the idea isn't to win solely with the running game its to force the defense to stop the run and open up for the pass! Why is that such a hard concept?

No, we aren't go to put up 30 points on the ground with BJGE and Woodhead but we would have worn down their dline, kept their offense off the field, and forced their defense to adjust for the run and open up holes for the passing game. Hell if we had 1 TD in the first half this way we would likely won.

The rest of your post was useless BJGE/Woodhead/Defense bashing.

You think BJGE and Woody, a tandem Ryan chose to defend with a DB on the line, would have morphed into Earl Campbell and Barry sanders when Ryan put 8 in the box? Okeedokee.

Yes, they've been taking what the defense has given them all year, every defense in the league gameplans to stop Brady.

Do you wonder why they don't game plan to stop BJ and Woodhead? There must be a reason. Are they stupid?

 

[RayClay]

Good golly, then how in hell did we score 45 points doing exactly that, the last time we played them? BJGE and Woodhead were very involved in the offense in the 2nd game against the Jets. 101 rushing yards total and 2 TDs.

We had 113 yards rushing yesterday.

You're saying less running led to 45 points?

if you're saying they should have run for touchdowns instead of throwing interceptions and having TD passes dropped, i can't argue with that.

To the Way Back machine!

 

[Patspsycho]

We had 113 yards rushing yesterday.

You're saying less running led to 45 points?

if you're saying they should have run for touchdowns instead of throwing interceptions and having TD passes dropped, i can't argue with that.

To the Way Back machine!

22 of those were Tate and Edelman on two trick plays IIRC.

There were only 9 run attempts for BJGE and just 14 for Woodhead.. if we got that much run yards on so few attempts, then why didn't we continue doing that?

 

[Ring 6]

No defenses want a slow clock-killing offense, and especially not a defense that had only 4 DL. That kind of offense will tire out a unbalanced defense pretty quick. Did you miss the five phony injuries timeout by the Jets, most of which were coincidentally in the 2nd half?

You aren't making valid points- you are basically arguing that BJGE and Woodhead are no Dillion, but what exactly is your point? They were good enough to get us to 14-2, the same record Dillon did. So the bottom line is that BJGE and Woodhead were as effective as Dillon.

The blunt fact is the game-calling was terrible and the coaching was subpar. BB laid out a game-plan that was not followed.

I'm curious about your last comment. What leads you to the conclusion that BB had a game plan, but BOB didnt follow it?

 

[RayClay]

22 of those were Tate and Edelman on two trick plays IIRC.

There were only 9 run attempts for BJGE and just 14 for Woodhead.. if we got that much run yards on so few attempts, then why didn't we continue doing that?

Your solution is to have Brady hand off and go to a power running game, because that is our strength?

You aren't making valid points- you are basically arguing that BJGE and Woodhead are no Dillion, but what exactly is your point? They were good enough to get us to 14-2, the same record Dillon did. So the bottom line is that BJGE and Woodhead were as effective as Dillon.

You're saying our success was due mostly to the running game, not to the Tom Brady led passing game? That's an interesting interpretation of our surprising 14-2 season, one I doubt any NFL defensive coordinator has considered.

 

[Patspsycho]

I'm curious about your last comment. What leads you to the conclusion that BB had a game plan, but BOB didnt follow it?

It is my best assessment (based somewhat on feeling right now)- since of course I am neither in the locker room or on the sidelines. I am going to watch the game one more time to try to get a better grasp on why I feel this way. My primary argument is this:

The first drive of the game was pretty efficient, there was a good mix of calls. And on the first drive of the 2nd half, we started off with run after run, and we ran the ball a lot more, thereafter.

After those, we quickly went to being one dimensional despite the consistent looks the defense was giving us (heavy on DB/LB).

This would suggest that we kept straying from course, since the influence of a HC is most felt prior to the game and at halftime.

It has been mentioned that the job of a HC is considered finished before the game and he does not do too much during a game, and you have the OC and DC for those minor adjustments. The HC's job is looking at the big picture.

The argument can be made that if BOB wasn't doing his job during the game, BB could interfere at any time or tell him to get back to the game plan, but as has been pointed out before, if BB kept doing that, that would be just taking over the job and making the idea of the OC mute. If he kept doing that, then how would BOB ever learn, or grow into the role? He has to learn to handle his own.

 

[PatsGuy]

The Pats beat themselves. They had a poor gameplan. They prepared poorly. They had a terrible ST 'option' play that resulted in the game-losing fake punt attempt. Overall it was bizarre. The Pats completely beat themselves this game. And I hadn't really seen it from them all year with the exception of a couple of games. I felt like I was in bizarro land. Who were the imposters that were wearing those uniforms out there?

All you have to do is look at VJC Patriot's "Weapons Galore Photo's
Do you see a running back there?
Football is no different from everyday life: you keep on doing what you feel most comfortable with and go to the people you trust. Yes. BJGE got his 1000 yards but was ever considered a "weapon"? Ever since the rule changes, the Pats, have used the pass to set up the run through bubble screens, and short mid level stuff. When the going got tough Sunday, did the coachs trust BJGE or for that matter Tate more than Branch? Gronk? Welker? Of course not.
People say "oh based on Sunday..we need to draft a back..someone with breakaway spped. Unless there's a fundemental shift in Patriot philosophy and a much higher sense that BJGE can and will give you positive yards, history will only be repeated.

 

[JackBauer]

Your solution is to have Brady hand off and go to a power running game, because that is our strength?

You take what the defense gives you, obviously. The Jets were flooding the field with defensive backs. The most obvious counter is the power running game.

 

[Patspsycho]

All you have to do is look at VJC Patriot's "Weapons Galore Photo's
Do you see a running back there?
Football is no different from everyday life: you keep on doing what you feel most comfortable with and go to the people you trust. Yes. BJGE got his 1000 yards but was ever considered a "weapon"?

How is getting 13 TDs not a weapon? That's more than Dillon ever got in one season and is only one less than the franchise record set by Martin.

 

[Dufflebagz]

You take what the defense gives you, obviously. The Jets were flooding the field with defensive backs. The most obvious counter is the power running game.

Exactly what I was trying to say and when they try to match up against the run you burn em with play action.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, and if we had a power running game, we would have used it.

You take what the defense gives you, obviously. The Jets were flooding the field with defensive backs. The most obvious counter is the power running game.

 

[JackBauer]

Yes, and if we had a power running game, we would have used it.

BJGE is more physical than most. He's not Peyton Hillis, but then, who is?

If you want to pick nits, that's certainly your prerogative. They inexplicably abandoned the aspect of the offense that was most successful, and chose to go with with the least successful approach that played directly into the hands of the defense. Then they finally went back to the run with a lackadaisical drive that burned up seven minutes when what they really needed was an acute sense of urgency.

Just an epic fail on all levels, and totally baffling.

 

[NENGFAN]

BJGE is more physical than most. He's not Peyton Hillis, but then, who is?

If you want to pick nits, that's certainly your prerogative. They inexplicably abandoned the aspect of the offense that was most successful, and chose to go with with the least successful approach that played directly into the hands of the defense. Then they finally went back to the run with a lackadaisical drive that burned up seven minutes when what they really needed was an acute sense of urgency.

Just an epic fail on all levels, and totally baffling.

I totally agree with this statement - it was an epic fail. Not sure WTF happened?

 

[Patspsycho]

Yes, and if we had a power running game, we would have used it.

You don't need a power game when the defense is in either nickel, dime, or quarter or half, the ENTIRE game.

 

[emoney_33]

The Patriots had a great gameplan, one that should have seen a 14-0 score entering the 2nd quarter, instead they were only up 3-0.

Then there was a terrible sack on 3rd down deep in the Patriots zone, leading to great field position for the Jets, which they took advantage of and got 7 points. I think this was one where Connolly got abused? We need a RG.

Rex Ryan had a 4th and 1 on the Patriots 41, I thought he would have gone for it, he punted. Only net 21 yards but it showed that he (rightly) valued field position. Then on that drive the Patriots are faced with 4th and 4 on their own 38, and they snap it to Chung. This leads to 7 points for the Jets.

If you are counting that's a 25 point swing based on execution failures and stupid coaching decisions. Maybe you can even mark off the first jets TD as complete credit to the Jets, good defense, won some field position and good drive to score on a shortened field. That's still an 18 point swing that is largely the fault of Brady, Crumpler (although a pass is in order for saving 7 points), Connolly and coaching.

Then to start the 3rd quarter, faced with 2nd and 2, against a top run defense of the Jets. The genius BoB decides to run with Woodhead on 2nd and 2. Then with BJGE on 3rd and 1. You're going against a top run defense, you have Brady, and you can't get a 1st down with 2 yards to go starting on 2nd down. People can make excuses for the guy all they want, but we need a real OC.

Whatever, through all of that crap and we should be up by 2 TDs we finally get our bearings again at the end of the 3rd and drive it into the endzone (surprise surprise it's mainly on Brady's arm that we get there).

Only down 3 and the defense breaks our heart as we watch Cotchery kick all of Patriots nation in the groin. Big plays can kill, they can really kill.

But hey whatever "only" down 10 and a whole 13 minutes to go. If anyone can do it, the golden arm of Brady will right? Instead they decide to act as if they are up 10 and kill 8 minutes of the clock and still scored 0 points. The 8 minute kill might not have been bad if they could have gotten a TD, but toying with precious minutes like that when you are down 2 scores is just idiotic in my mind.

So let's recap...

Brady INT, Crumpler drop, fake punt, run on 2nd/3rd and short, Cotchery, 8 minute drive down 10 with 13:00 to go...

Good coaching used to make up for inevitable failed execution, nowadays bad coaching exacerbates it.

It's kind of sad but 2008 McDaniels/Cassel probably has a better chance in the playoffs than the last 2 years of BoB/Brady, and that's surely not a knock on Brady.