Felger:This defense cant stop anyone

[NYCPatsFan]

What part of "the other team scored less than us 9 times" don't people understand?

This topic is on our D.

Other team scoring less than us need not necessarily mean that our D performed well; it could also be because our O - and in one game, our ST - did a splendid task of scoring more. Right?

After seeing how our O can be grounded (Browns, Jets game - although I will wait for the second Jets game before deciding) or can be stopped at crucial drives in the 4Q, it natural to wonder if our O can always be trusted to bail out our D.

So, I can see why some fans look at our D's peformance in a critical manner irrespective of impressive our current W-L record is.

What I don't see is how some experienced posters don't understand that part.

 

[RobertWeathers]

17/11 =1.545 not 1.18

Bad math on my part. Thank you.

 

[Richard Camembert]

Last 4 games: 28 points allowed per game, 3-1. Including the near defeat by the Colts. One could call the pick at the end of the game a great play by Cunningham and Sanders, but we all know that if Jughead just heaves it out of bounds like he should, instead of going all Favre on the nation, Indy at least ties that game and probably wins it. I know my buds and I were throwing up in the back of our mouths watching Manning just bend the D over; playoff flashbacks and all. So, should be 2-2 imo.

Previous 4 games: 18 points allowed per game, 4-0.

This D is a young puppy: enthusiastic, exciting to watch, but with a penchant for messing on the floor. I think BB needs to administer a tap on the nose with the Herald, or the dog show results are going to disappoint this year.

 

[ivanvamp]

I think Felger gets bashed because he is an idiot. Only an idiot would defend him.

Here is that stat of the game.

Second half with the game in the balance, Detroit had five drives that resulted in:

7 points, 2 picks, 135 yards of offense.

I was at the game and in the second half they did a better job keeping Hill in the pocket

Game over.


Ya gotta love idiots like Felger and their idiot apologists. This week it's the first half, last week it was the fourth quarter.

Sorry but the game is 60 minutes.

Detroit was averaging more than 30 points a game at home before NE showed up. They put up 32 against Philadelphia, 26 against Green Bay, 20 against the Jets, and 20 against the Giants. They've proven that they can score points. I'm not suggesting they're the 2007 Patriots, but this year's Lions team isn't a bad offensive team. They're #15 in the league in scoring. They don't stink offensively.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

This topic is on our D.

Other team scoring less than us need not necessarily mean that our D performed well; it could also be because our O - and in one game, our ST - did a splendid task of scoring more. Right?

After seeing how our O can be grounded (Browns, Jets game - although I will wait for the second Jets game before deciding) or can be stopped at crucial drives in the 4Q, it natural to wonder if our O can always be trusted to bail out our D.

So, I can see why some fans look at our D's peformance in a critical manner irrespective of impressive our current W-L record is.

What I don't see is how some experienced posters don't understand that part.

So what do you do in life?

You must herd unicorns and mine pixie dust.

Let's see, ummm the Baltimore game. Who got stops late?

San Diego. That stop on 4th down looked pretty crucial. Who then got a "3 and out"?

I didn't realize the offense wasn't stopped and actually performed in the 4th quarter against Indy. Thanks for tip. DSid the Brady post game comments really happen?

If you actually look at what happens (it's called reality), you can actually "wonder" a lil less.

 

[Ring 6]

Last 4 games: 28 points allowed per game, 3-1. Including the near defeat by the Colts. One could call the pick at the end of the game a great play by Cunningham and Sanders, but we all know that if Jughead just heaves it out of bounds like he should, instead of going all Favre on the nation, Indy at least ties that game and probably wins it. I know my buds and I were throwing up in the back of our mouths watching Manning just bend the D over; playoff flashbacks and all. So, should be 2-2 imo.

Previous 4 games: 18 points allowed per game, 4-0.

This D is a young puppy: enthusiastic, exciting to watch, but with a penchant for messing on the floor. I think BB needs to administer a tap on the nose with the Herald, or the dog show results are going to disappoint this year.

Why would an interception be a less valid way to stop a drvie than any other?
I dont understand the logic that getting an interception doesnt count as a stop

 

[Ring 6]

I don't see how you can argue that this defense as a whole stinks

We have a few stars like Wilfork,Chung,Mayo and McCourty but after those guys you have a bunch of guys that normally would be backups on just about every team in the league and there are rookies who will make mistakes
...Meriweather sucks one game and is good the next so I really can't put a finger on that guy.

If Brady and Co. On the other side were not playing lights out on offense and scoring 30 PPG, this team would have a record closer to the Panthers than the Jets.

Brady needed to have a near career year to keep this team in contention and he has.

Our 9-2 record is a surprise for sure but I think most Pats fans realized this young inexperienced defense would need the offense to carry them most of the season to avoid an ugly year and Brady has more than carried the load in that regards.

But this is the Madeenization and Fantasy Footballization of the typical football fan.
It is exceedingly common today to perceive compiling statistics as the purpose of football and to argue that yardage really decides football games and any team that doesnt dominate in yardage must be scoured over to find the fluke in their win.
ALL YARDS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL.
Football is far and away decided by who makes plays in critical situations.
It is fallacious to look at a team that has a good offense and gets leads, then allows a lot of yards, and even points, yet not enough to let the other team catch up, and assume the defense would do the same thing under different circumstances.
Lets just go crazy here and say interceptions are a lame way to stop a team, and give the Colts the win. That makes the Patriots 8-3 and you will be hard pressed to find another game where you can say the defense didnt contribute heavily to the win. Clearly this defense is vastly better than statistics indicate, if your objective is winning football games.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

But this is the Madeenization and Fantasy Footballization of the typical football fan.
It is exceedingly common today to perceive compiling statistics as the purpose of football and to argue that yardage really decides football games and any team that doesnt dominate in yardage must be scoured over to find the fluke in their win.
ALL YARDS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL.
Football is far and away decided by who makes plays in critical situations.
It is fallacious to look at a team that has a good offense and gets leads, then allows a lot of yards, and even points, yet not enough to let the other team catch up, and assume the defense would do the same thing under different circumstances.
Lets just go crazy here and say interceptions are a lame way to stop a team, and give the Colts the win. That makes the Patriots 8-3 and you will be hard pressed to find another game where you can say the defense didnt contribute heavily to the win. Clearly this defense is vastly better than statistics indicate, if your objective is winning football games.

Imagine if this team had the defensive stars of the early decade along with this offense ...I would think no team would even be able to stay in games with them.

 

[Ring 6]

Imagine if this team had the defensive stars of the early decade along with this offense ...I would think no team would even be able to stay in games with them.

I think its too early to judge that.
I am a big believer that a player, unit, etcs job is make plays when they decide games. I dont care much about stats or margin of victory.
I think those things are windows into having an insight on how a team will play when the game is on the line, but how they actually do play makes those numbers irrelevant.
In other words, I would expect the 5th raned defense to be more likely to not allow a game tying or game winning 4th quarter drive than the 30th ranked. If one team plays incrementally better for 60 minutes, you would think they are more likely to play better when it is critical, but that is absolutely not the case.
For example, the Jets defense has allowed fewer yards and points in each of the last 2 seasons. But they have been much more susceptible to allowing 4th quarter scores to tie the game or fall behind than the Patriots have this year.

The Patriots have not allowed a 4th quarter score that tied the game or surrenedered the lead all season. The Jets, on the other hand have done so 3 times. Why are the Patriots being categorized as 'nearly collapsing' but people want to consider the Jets D the 85 Bears?

 

[Ring 6]

I think its too early to judge that.
I am a big believer that a player, unit, etcs job is make plays when they decide games. I dont care much about stats or margin of victory.
I think those things are windows into having an insight on how a team will play when the game is on the line, but how they actually do play makes those numbers irrelevant.
In other words, I would expect the 5th raned defense to be more likely to not allow a game tying or game winning 4th quarter drive than the 30th ranked. If one team plays incrementally better for 60 minutes, you would think they are more likely to play better when it is critical, but that is absolutely not the case.
For example, the Jets defense has allowed fewer yards and points in each of the last 2 seasons. But they have been much more susceptible to allowing 4th quarter scores to tie the game or fall behind than the Patriots have this year.

The Patriots have not allowed a 4th quarter score that tied the game or surrenedered the lead all season. The Jets, on the other hand have done so 3 times. Why are the Patriots being categorized as 'nearly collapsing' but people want to consider the Jets D the 85 Bears?

By the way to finish my point about it being too soon.

The Patriots will either not blow a big game in the 4th quarter or they will.
The idea of extrapolating past games to the future, to thereby assess those past games is crazy.
Just as my opinion is that the Jets have shown flaws that tell me they have some rough times ahead when they play good teams, because they have struggled mightily to beat bad teams, and in fact only won 3 of those games because of historic gaffes by the opponents.
In reality, that is my take. The next 5 weeks and playoffs will tell whether the Jets got to 9-2 on the good fortune of the schedule, or whether they are a team with great character and a bunch of winners that just win no matter what. Either could be argued now, but one will be proved correct and one will be proven wrong from here forward. Its kinda crazy to say the first is true because it will come back to haunt them, or the second is true because they will step up the rest of the way.

 

[RayClay]

Our D doesn't stink at all. If you want to see D's that stink check for teams that have great statistics but lose games. Sure, stopping short passes and getting sacks gets you on sportcenter, thumping your chest after the big sack. It's great to look bad against a manniong, totally shutting him down early.

Of course, Mannings and Roethlisbergers will adjust to your tight coverage and blitzes and drop 2,3,4 Td passes on you late. Your team would have great stats though.

Unfortunately, the Pats never have played that way in the BB era, so I think some here are just choosing the wrong team to root for. why torture yourself? The Patriots want teams to have to throw a lot of passes and use a lot of field, so they can force a key mistake. Sorry.

Root for the San Diego Chargers, they allow the least yards in the league. wooo.

I'm assuming with the best stats at QB and on Defense, they must be better than 9-2, how could they not?

 

[RayClay]

San Diego Chargers, best total yards offense, defense, best passing.

According to this board, they must be the best team in football.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

I musn't admit anything. Is there a separate trophy for fewest yards allowed? I believe the first 99 yards don't count, correct me if I'm wrong. We're nine and two.

Sometimes I seriously wonder if present posters even followed the team since 2001. We have been using the same type of defensive philosophy, in general and it has been tremendously successful.

Also, in case there's confusion, our defense is composed mostly of rookies and second year players, and we lost two crucial starters before the season. This isn't the 85 Bears out there. aAttempting to play like the 85 Bears, as some posters seem to want, will result in WRs dancing through our end zone to the tune of double digit touchdowns.

We have three cornerbacks right now and the one we're waiting on is Jonathan Wilhite. Ty law's not coming through that door, Leigh Bodden's not coming through that door, Rodney Harrison's not coming through that door. we've got a rookie, an UDFA special teamer and an underachiever and we just beat Pittsburgh and Peyton Manning back to back, so pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze stop.

We are playing the type of defense that allows a young injury riddled defense to defeat the best teams in football. what the hell more does anybody want?

I have been following since "Goodbye Chuckie" chants were being sung from the stands right after that playoff loss in the late 70s. I do not under value the stellar performance this year or what the BB era has given Patriot fans (our cups runneth over). However, it is no mark of discontentment to consider the play of our defense and how that will play out in the biggest game of the season. It's an unfair question to ask, what if the Patriot offense is slowed down for 4 quarters and can the defense keep them in the game?. The defensive play has been good enough to allow our potent offense to score more than the opposition's offense 9 out of 11 times. But in the 2 losses the Patriot offense sputtered and scored only 14 points each. Again, what if the Patriot offense sputters against the Jets? Will the Patriot defense be able to keep us in the game?? Those are fair questions to consider while not being a spoiled BB era fan.

 

[RayClay]

I have been following since "Goodbye Chuckie" chants were being sung from the stands right after that playoff loss in the late 70s. I do not under value the stellar performance this year or what the BB era has given Patriot fans (our cups runneth over). However, it is no mark of discontentment to consider the play of our defense and how that will play out in the biggest game of the season. It's an unfair question to ask, what if the Patriot offense is slowed down for 4 quarters and can the defense keep them in the game?. The defensive play has been good enough to allow our potent offense to score more than the opposition's offense 9 out of 11 times. But in the 2 losses the Patriot offense sputtered and scored only 14 points each. Again, what if the Patriot offense sputters against the Jets? Will the Patriot defense be able to keep us in the game?? Those are fair questions to consider while not being a spoiled BB era fan.

You know the personnel, especially after losing Bodden and Warren. They had three corners, a rook, an UDFA special teamer and a guy who had been benched.

They stopped Peyton f**ing Manning in the clutch with their third interception. what is the point of dogging them, did you expect them to be the 85 Bears coming out of training camp? For their level of experience and talent, given key injuries, they and Belichick are playing out of their minds.

What is the point of all these threads, i don't understand it? Anyone who follows the team knows these guys are overachieving, except for the phantasy phootball fans that think wins and losses don't count and yards do.

If they played like all these defensive experts wanted them to, send the house, play tight coverage right off the line, they'd give up 80 points a game.

They are what they are. They are what they are.

Because Belichick knows how to win and they listen to him, and he doesn't listen to BB posters, they have been effective in helping win games. They aren't the greatest, just great enough to win when it counts.

What is the point in bashing the defense, over and over? Do y'all think you can coach the defense better than Belichick? Do you think we can pick up an all star team on waivers? What?

 

[Deus Irae]

They stopped Peyton f**ing Manning in the clutch with their third interception. what is the point of dogging them, did you expect them to be the 85 Bears coming out of training camp?

So people can't have questions about the defense after wins, because the team won and is obviously above such things as analysis, and they can't have questions about the defense after losses, because it's too soon after the game and it's all the Chicken Littles coming out. Next you'll be telling me that PatFanKen, one of the biggest pom pom wearers around, is being scolded because he's not homer enough and has dared to inject some concerns in his "idle thoughts" threads.

Oh, wait.....







When did the Patriots PR department take over the site?

 

[Joker]

When did the Patriots PR department take over the site?

about the same time they cheated the 49ers in London,definitely taped the Rams walkthrough in 2001, started WW3, bombed Pearl Harbor, hired Josef Mengele as team physician and bought every video camera on the planet so nobody but Bill Belichick can use them.

 

[RayClay]

So people can't have questions about the defense after wins, because the team won and is obviously above such things as analysis, and they can't have questions about the defense after losses, because it's too soon after the game and it's all the Chicken Littles coming out. Next you'll be telling me that PatFanKen, one of the biggest pom pom wearers around, is being scolded because he's not homer enough and has dared to inject some concerns in his "idle thoughts" threads.

Oh, wait.....







When did the Patriots PR department take over the site?

Of course. I try to give criticism after wins rather than pile on. My point is...what do more do people expect from this team? Why the bashing? Why, the frankly dumb refrain over and over that they should send the house and play tight right off the line every play?

Do people think they have 5 all pro corners? Should we rush Lawrence Taylor every play?

I'm just begging for a reality check. This undermanned and underexperienced defense is making the big plays consistently. They don't have the ability to put an all star corner on every receiver of Mannings and get pressure every play too.

To me, constructive criticism involves ways we could better deploy the personnel we have. I don't think our defense could have better results, given their abilities and experience than they have. Results mean wins. Nothing else matters but wins. Period.

If y'all think this group can out play our 2004 defense, I'm sure BB would like to see the plan. I don't. I think the schemes they are using have this defense playing to the best of their current ability and the best means winning ball games.

Or there's total yards, in which case, O and D, you can follow the Chargers.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

You know the personnel, especially after losing Bodden and Warren. They had three corners, a rook, an UDFA special teamer and a guy who had been benched.

They stopped Peyton f**ing Manning in the clutch with their third interception. what is the point of dogging them, did you expect them to be the 85 Bears coming out of training camp? For their level of experience and talent, given key injuries, they and Belichick are playing out of their minds.

What is the point of all these threads, i don't understand it? Anyone who follows the team knows these guys are overachieving, except for the phantasy phootball fans that think wins and losses don't count and yards do.

If they played like all these defensive experts wanted them to, send the house, play tight coverage right off the line, they'd give up 80 points a game.

They are what they are. They are what they are.

Because Belichick knows how to win and they listen to him, and he doesn't listen to BB posters, they have been effective in helping win games. They aren't the greatest, just great enough to win when it counts.

What is the point in bashing the defense, over and over? Do y'all think you can coach the defense better than Belichick? Do you think we can pick up an all star team on waivers? What?

Coach the defense better than BB? Not! There is nobody I'd rather have as "our" coach than BB. Listen, I see where your frustration is coming from. Best CB goes down, one of the best DL goes down, many first year and second year guys starting.....yet we are winning at a high percentage (this is one of BB finest coaching jobs -- and that is saying something). yes, there are a lot of fans who were not fans of the Patriots before BB (or before Parcells). Therefore they are spoiled by the Patriots almost always being at or near the top of the league. With all that said, feel free, or not, to cut some slack for the apprehension of the coming game. The ramifications of this game are huge....I'd go so far as to say that the percentage difference for the Patriots to make it to the SB are very big (2 games at home versus 1 at home and 2 on the road). My apprehension is taking the form of "what if the offense has trouble scoring? Will the defense be able to bail them out?". Is that so bad to have that concern considering the defense -- as well as they have played all things considered -- has shown a propensity to give up yards and points??

I give kudos to what the defense, considering the age, has been able to do. The Patriots have shown an ability play well and win (even when everything isn't clicking). Conversely, unlike many others, I also think the Jets have shown an ability to play well and win (even when everything isn't clicking). But in this game I am concerned that the Jets happen to match up well with the Patriots. That concern is specifically over the defense's ability to get enough stops versus their defense's ability to get more stops against us.

 

[Deus Irae]

Of course. I try to give criticism after wins rather than pile on. My point is...what do more do people expect from this team? Why the bashing? Why, the frankly dumb refrain over and over that they should send the house and play tight right off the line every play?

People expect more form this team because this team has set the standard. Why would you think people would demand less of them than we've seen them demonstrate in flashes? Do you think the coaches look at them and say "Perfect. No need to practice anything."?

Do people think they have 5 all pro corners? Should we rush Lawrence Taylor every play?

Now you're preaching to the choir. This secondary would get killed if it was left alone in a blitzing man-to-man system all game long. But that's not where you've been focusing your commentary, at least with regards to what I was responding to.

I'm just begging for a reality check. This undermanned and underexperienced defense is making the big plays consistently. They don't have the ability to put an all star corner on every receiver of Mannings and get pressure every play too.

This team's defense is not making big plays as consistently as you seem to imply. That's the problem. That's why it can't maintain big leads once teams air it out late, and that's why it can't stop opponents from marching up and down the field against it during the course of the game. The "bend but don't break" concept, as many term this style of defense, has been getting roasted through the air like never before in Belichick's tenure. Given the way teams attack the Patriots, and the opponents the team has faced, it's not really surprising that the team is near the top of the league in interceptions, and down near the bottom of the league in forced fumbles, is it? The following list is from NFL.com, and is obviously going to add more compiled stats to the Patriots since they've played one more game than most teams, but:

No team has been passed against more.
No team is allowing a higher completion percentage (68.3%).
No team has surrendered more passing yards.
No team has allowed more first downs.
They are the 8th worst team in the league in yards per attempt against.
They are 2nd worst in the league in passing yards allowed per game.
They are 3rd worst in the league in passing players of 20+ yards against.
They are 9th worst in the league in points allowed.

There's plenty to talk about, plenty to critique, and plenty to be concerned about, when it comes to analyzing the defense. You claim that this defense doesn't stink at all. Clearly, the above shows that your claim is not beyond argument.

This defense has Wilfork, Mayo, Meriweather/Sanders and, arguably, McCourty. After that, it's all duct tape and chewing gum right now. One linebacker can play only the run, while another can play only the pass. One d-lineman can stop the run, but couldn't pressure the QB if he had a rocket strapped to his ass, while another can get to the QB, but can't hold up worth a damn against the run. Come playoff time, those higher level teams will likely be able to exploit that, through scheme or talent, if that group doesn't get significantly better. Teams being able to gash the Patriots run defense by running against sub packages is just one example of what's to come in the future if the team's talent doesn't start to play better.

To me, constructive criticism involves ways we could better deploy the personnel we have. I don't think our defense could have better results, given their abilities and experience than they have. Results mean wins. Nothing else matters but wins. Period.

This is a message board, not the Patriots PR site. Why would you expect people not to discuss what's going on? The only time that "Nothing else matters but wins" is true is when you're in the final game of the season, and it's winner take all. For every other game, it's not just winning that matters, because problems found and not remedied can be exploited by future opponents. I've been defending this defense of late, at least with regards to the "prevent" brouhaha, but let's not act as if those with concerns are completely without reason.

If y'all think this group can out play our 2004 defense, I'm sure BB would like to see the plan. I don't. I think the schemes they are using have this defense playing to the best of their current ability and the best means winning ball games.

1.) It's statistically the worst defense against the pass in New England Patriots history, or at least it was heading into this past game. I don't think it's wrong of people to want better than that, regardless of the team's record.

2.) You've found the big problem, IMO. This team is winning a lot more on scheme than talent right now, at least when it comes to the defensive side of the ball. That's why a team like Cleveland was able to beat the hell out of them just by negating the scheme advantage. That's also why things need to improve. The coaching generally gets better in the playoffs, and weaknesses have had all season long to be exposed.

Or there's total yards, in which case, O and D, you can follow the Chargers.

It's not all about total yards, it's about total team, so you make sense there, although the Chargers would probably have beaten the Patriots if Chargers players actually knew the rules of the game at the NFL level. But, if you think that means you should just ignore the problems of the defense because the offense is playing so well, perhaps a hearkening back to the Super Bowl in 2007 would serve as a nice refresher for you.

 

[Fencer]

But, if you think that means you should just ignore the problems of the defense because the offense is playing so well, perhaps a hearkening back to the Super Bowl in 2007 would serve as a nice refresher for you.

The two bolded things do not belong in the same sentence.