Felger:This defense cant stop anyone

[condon84]

The Pats defense can stop anyone, but not for a complete game - at least not yet. The Pats were up 24-3 against the Steelers going into the fourth. They beat the Lions in the second half 35-7. The Pats held the Colts to 14 points almost midway through the fourth (and held them scoreless in both the first and third quarters). The Pats were beating the Vikings 21-10 in the fourth. The Pats were beating the Chargers 20-3 going into the fourth.

The Pats' defense's problem isn't that they cannot stop anyone. Their problem is that they cannot put together a complete game and they can go from a shutout defense to a siv in a matter of one drive to the next. They need to work on their consistency. Unfortunately, inconsistency is a trait of a young defense.

Good post.

I would add that when our defense plays aggressive, they've looked like a top defense. But when we get big leads and play soft, they've looked like the worse defense in the league.

 

[Triumph]

What stats are you looking at?

There is no comparison to the 2001 D to this one. Except for the run D, 2001was both statistically and talent-wise better by a wide margin.

There is a comparison to 2001.

That defense wasnt perfect either. This defense is making eonough plays to win: Intercepting Manning on his final drive, stopping Baltimore in OT, Mcourtys INT on Johnson to give Brady field position to take the lead, etc.

9 - 2 works for me.

 

[RayClay]

Coach the defense better than BB? Not! There is nobody I'd rather have as "our" coach than BB. Listen, I see where your frustration is coming from. Best CB goes down, one of the best DL goes down, many first year and second year guys starting.....yet we are winning at a high percentage (this is one of BB finest coaching jobs -- and that is saying something). yes, there are a lot of fans who were not fans of the Patriots before BB (or before Parcells). Therefore they are spoiled by the Patriots almost always being at or near the top of the league. With all that said, feel free, or not, to cut some slack for the apprehension of the coming game. The ramifications of this game are huge....I'd go so far as to say that the percentage difference for the Patriots to make it to the SB are very big (2 games at home versus 1 at home and 2 on the road). My apprehension is taking the form of "what if the offense has trouble scoring? Will the defense be able to bail them out?". Is that so bad to have that concern considering the defense -- as well as they have played all things considered -- has shown a propensity to give up yards and points??

I give kudos to what the defense, considering the age, has been able to do. The Patriots have shown an ability play well and win (even when everything isn't clicking). Conversely, unlike many others, I also think the Jets have shown an ability to play well and win (even when everything isn't clicking). But in this game I am concerned that the Jets happen to match up well with the Patriots. That concern is specifically over the defense's ability to get enough stops versus their defense's ability to get more stops against us.

Great post. Yes, I am frustrated. Yes, our defense needs to bring the A game every week and listen to the coach, there is no slack.

Apprehensive? I guess. Seems like a glass half full thing. I'm massively enjoying this season and our wins over Pitt and Indy. The defense got the job done, I won't even discuss it. Peyton didn't walk into that locker room with a smile on his face, BB said that's what they were trying to do, they executed, both on the pressure and the Int, and deserve praise, not bashing.

(For any real new fans, That Peyton guy is pretty good. Well above average, in fact.)

Are they bound to fail, or are they gaining real world confidence to become better than the sum of there parts? I choose to believe the latter.

I believe a team can come together and play over their heads long enough to take it all (compare our 2001-2002 teams). I've also seen loaded teams of All Pros put up great statistics and go down like a lead balloon when it counted.

This is it, if this defense makes people nervous I don't know what to say. BB knows how to play them better than anyone. if you're expecting massive help, I have two words for you...Earthwind Moreland.

I say, enjoy the ride, life's too short. 9 wins in the bank and no Peyton faces or Raven whining can change that. We're very likely to go to the playoffs and I like our defense.

See my sig.

 

[Ring 6]

I have been following since "Goodbye Chuckie" chants were being sung from the stands right after that playoff loss in the late 70s. I do not under value the stellar performance this year or what the BB era has given Patriot fans (our cups runneth over). However, it is no mark of discontentment to consider the play of our defense and how that will play out in the biggest game of the season. It's an unfair question to ask, what if the Patriot offense is slowed down for 4 quarters and can the defense keep them in the game?. The defensive play has been good enough to allow our potent offense to score more than the opposition's offense 9 out of 11 times. But in the 2 losses the Patriot offense sputtered and scored only 14 points each. Again, what if the Patriot offense sputters against the Jets? Will the Patriot defense be able to keep us in the game?? Those are fair questions to consider while not being a spoiled BB era fan.

First of all you have no clue how the defense will respond to that type of game, and counting up the yards and points they allow with a comfortable lead does nothing to answer that.
I prefer to guess at what the team will do late in a close game based on what they do late in a close game. The defense has not allowed a tying or go ahead 4th quarter score all season.

What will happen if our offense blows all day long in a playoff game? The same thing that would happen to any team, we would lose.
If we were a defensive team with a questionable offense and you asked what would happen in a playoff game if our D allowed 30 what answer do you think you would get?

You seem to be taking great pains to have people conclude that our offense is outperforming our defense and that is why we are 9-2.
What I fail to understand is why one way of getting to 9-2 is any better than any other way.

 

[RayClay]

People expect more form this team because this team has set the standard. Why would you think people would demand less of them than we've seen them demonstrate in flashes? Do you think the coaches look at them and say "Perfect. No need to practice anything."?



Now you're preaching to the choir. This secondary would get killed if it was left alone in a blitzing man-to-man system all game long. But that's not where you've been focusing your commentary, at least with regards to what I was responding to.



This team's defense is not making big plays as consistently as you seem to imply. That's the problem. That's why it can't maintain big leads once teams air it out late, and that's why it can't stop opponents from marching up and down the field against it during the course of the game. The "bend but don't break" concept, as many term this style of defense, has been getting roasted through the air like never before in Belichick's tenure. Given the way teams attack the Patriots, and the opponents the team has faced, it's not really surprising that the team is near the top of the league in interceptions, and down near the bottom of the league in forced fumbles, is it? The following list is from NFL.com, and is obviously going to add more compiled stats to the Patriots since they've played one more game than most teams, but:

No team has been passed against more.
No team is allowing a higher completion percentage (68.3%).
No team has surrendered more passing yards.
No team has allowed more first downs.
They are the 8th worst team in the league in yards per attempt against.
They are 2nd worst in the league in passing yards allowed per game.
They are 3rd worst in the league in passing players of 20+ yards against.
They are 9th worst in the league in points allowed.

There's plenty to talk about, plenty to critique, and plenty to be concerned about, when it comes to analyzing the defense. You claim that this defense doesn't stink at all. Clearly, the above shows that your claim is not beyond argument.

This defense has Wilfork, Mayo, Meriweather/Sanders and, arguably, McCourty. After that, it's all duct tape and chewing gum right now. One linebacker can play only the run, while another can play only the pass. One d-lineman can stop the run, but couldn't pressure the QB if he had a rocket strapped to his ass, while another can get to the QB, but can't hold up worth a damn against the run. Come playoff time, those higher level teams will likely be able to exploit that, through scheme or talent, if that group doesn't get significantly better. Teams being able to gash the Patriots run defense by running against sub packages is just one example of what's to come in the future if the team's talent doesn't start to play better.



This is a message board, not the Patriots PR site. Why would you expect people not to discuss what's going on? The only time that "Nothing else matters but wins" is true is when you're in the final game of the season, and it's winner take all. For every other game, it's not just winning that matters, because problems found and not remedied can be exploited by future opponents. I've been defending this defense of late, at least with regards to the "prevent" brouhaha, but let's not act as if those with concerns are completely without reason.



1.) It's statistically the worst defense against the pass in New England Patriots history, or at least it was heading into this past game. I don't think it's wrong of people to want better than that, regardless of the team's record.

2.) You've found the big problem, IMO. This team is winning a lot more on scheme than talent right now, at least when it comes to the defensive side of the ball. That's why a team like Cleveland was able to beat the hell out of them just by negating the scheme advantage. That's also why things need to improve. The coaching generally gets better in the playoffs, and weaknesses have had all season long to be exposed.



It's not all about total yards, it's about total team, so you make sense there, although the Chargers would probably have beaten the Patriots if Chargers players actually knew the rules of the game at the NFL level. But, if you think that means you should just ignore the problems of the defense because the offense is playing so well, perhaps a hearkening back to the Super Bowl in 2007 would serve as a nice refresher for you.

This team is the 2010 version. BB even took the pics off the wall.

Our defense played fine in the 2007 Superbowl, that was a fault of offensive design and execution.

"Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing". Those concerned about total yards might be best served to look at actual results (Ws) the only thing that matters, and wonder what it is we're doing on defense that our success is so much better that our (meaningless) statistics.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course. I try to give criticism after wins rather than pile on. My point is...what do more do people expect from this team? Why the bashing? Why, the frankly dumb refrain over and over that they should send the house and play tight right off the line every play?

Do people think they have 5 all pro corners? Should we rush Lawrence Taylor every play?

I'm just begging for a reality check. This undermanned and underexperienced defense is making the big plays consistently. They don't have the ability to put an all star corner on every receiver of Mannings and get pressure every play too.

To me, constructive criticism involves ways we could better deploy the personnel we have. I don't think our defense could have better results, given their abilities and experience than they have. Results mean wins. Nothing else matters but wins. Period.

If y'all think this group can out play our 2004 defense, I'm sure BB would like to see the plan. I don't. I think the schemes they are using have this defense playing to the best of their current ability and the best means winning ball games.

Or there's total yards, in which case, O and D, you can follow the Chargers.

My complaint would be that people looking at this 9-2 team are trying to dress up the flaws in this 9-2 team as much more severe than the flaws of any 9-2 team.
This is the way this team is winning games. The flaws in this team are no more likely to cost them a future game than the flaws of any other team of the same caliber with different strengths and weaknesses.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to understand if our offense is terrible in a game we will have a hard time winning. IT also doesnt take one to know if the Jets defense is terrible in a game it will have a hard time winning.
Thing is our offense is better than the Jets defense is.

 

[NYCPatsFan]

So what do you do in life? You must herd unicorns and mine pixie dust. Let's see, ummm the Baltimore game. Who got stops late? San Diego. That stop on 4th down looked pretty crucial. Who then got a "3 and out"? I didn't realize the offense wasn't stopped and actually performed in the 4th quarter against Indy. Thanks for tip. DSid the Brady post game comments really happen? If you actually look at what happens (it's called reality), you can actually "wonder" a lil less.

Grandma,

You probably didn't go to school or got thrown out when attempting to, but still try this ok? It's never too late.

Learn to first R E A D, then C O M P R E H E N D before you act.

The above might help you to understand another person's point before you blindly react eager to spew your haughty, negative and deriding comments.

But given your penchant for smearing most fans as fantasy fans, I highly doubt if you have the capacity to absorb and apply practical wisdom even if it comes from internet forums like these.

Who knows...hope is eternal and maybe you will, which might reduce the # of people adding you to their ignore list, though that is what I am about to do now.

 

[Ring 6]

Good post.

I would add that when our defense plays aggressive, they've looked like a top defense. But when we get big leads and play soft, they've looked like the worse defense in the league.

Question.
If you build a big lead, play conservative and the game gets close but you win, was it wrong to play conservative?

 

[RayClay]

My complaint would be that people looking at this 9-2 team are trying to dress up the flaws in this 9-2 team as much more severe than the flaws of any 9-2 team.
This is the way this team is winning games. The flaws in this team are no more likely to cost them a future game than the flaws of any other team of the same caliber with different strengths and weaknesses.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to understand if our offense is terrible in a game we will have a hard time winning. IT also doesnt take one to know if the Jets defense is terrible in a game it will have a hard time winning.
Thing is our offense is better than the Jets defense is.

I agree, we are winning by hiding our flaws and maximizing our athleticism and surprising discipline.

I was going to mention that we will be tested in a low scoring game, but as you so eloquently have mentioned before, our defense against manning was because he was Manning, allowing yards, making him pass multiple times, preventing the big play.

When we get in a low scoring game, our defensive game plan will change. Will we be successful? I don't know.

Did i mention I'm enjoying the hell out of this season? I think it's my favorite ever so far, being that 2001 was kind of a fluke and a gift at this point (not knowing the outcome, obviously).

That doesn't mean best ever team BTW. I probably enjoy gutsy underdogs better and this team is full of them

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Question.
If you build a big lead, play conservative and the game gets close but you win, was it wrong to play conservative?

This is my whole problem with the 2010 defense. Are they growing and jelling or are they street cons impersonating a real defense?

A couple of observations:

On third down opposing teams are throwing into Merriweather's coverage zone with tremendous success. We play a lot of soft zone on 3rd down.

On first and second down opposing teams are having trouble throwing against our cover 1, especially with Meriweather in there.

When Chung is healthy and playing instead of Merriweather our soft zone defense is better because Chung reads plays well and reacts nicely and is a head hunter to boot.

When Merriweather is playing in our soft zone defense, he reads and reacts slowly and gets there late every time. Not saying he is a moron, but thinking is NEVER going to be a strong part of his game.

 

[Triumph]

Question.
If you build a big lead, play conservative and the game gets close but you win, was it wrong to play conservative?

Nothing

It was clear as day to me that BB was using the clock vs the Steelers after posting a big lead. The NE D was letting Pitt have protractive drives because there wasnt enough time for Pitt to mount a come back and win.

Thats my theory.

Sure, BB would prefer to shut a team out or render them to kicking FGs, but if they score TDs and burn clock, its not the end of the world.

Ive stated this once and I will again. This NE D is making enough plays in every game to win. You can go right down the line in virtually every game NE has won. In SD, BB went for it on 4th at midfield and didnt convert. This Pats D held SD to a FG that would have sent the game to OT.

 

[condon84]

Question.
If you build a big lead, play conservative and the game gets close but you win, was it wrong to play conservative?

I don't think BB intends our prevent defense to allow teams to come within one possession if our team is winning by three possessions when you're in the 4th quarter.

 

[Deus Irae]

This team is the 2010 version. BB even took the pics off the wall.

And this team has shown flashes, which is what I noted.

Our defense played fine in the 2007 Superbowl, that was a fault of offensive design and execution.

Yes, the team relied on the offense. The offense didn't show up. The team lost. That was precisely my point.

"Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing". Those concerned about total yards might be best served to look at actual results (Ws) the only thing that matters, and wonder what it is we're doing on defense that our success is so much better that our (meaningless) statistics.

Those concerned only with wins during the regular season might best be served to pay attention to what coaches, and front offices, do. They make it abundantly clear that winning is not the only thing that matters.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

First of all you have no clue how the defense will respond to that type of game, and counting up the yards and points they allow with a comfortable lead does nothing to answer that.
I prefer to guess at what the team will do late in a close game based on what they do late in a close game. The defense has not allowed a tying or go ahead 4th quarter score all season.

What will happen if our offense blows all day long in a playoff game? The same thing that would happen to any team, we would lose.
If we were a defensive team with a questionable offense and you asked what would happen in a playoff game if our D allowed 30 what answer do you think you would get?

You seem to be taking great pains to have people conclude that our offense is outperforming our defense and that is why we are 9-2.
What I fail to understand is why one way of getting to 9-2 is any better than any other way.

Without hesitation I entirely agree that I do not know how the defense will respond in the upcoming Jets game. I do, however, look at what we have done and try to apply that to how they might respond in future games. What else can be done in terms of prognostication? Further, you called it correct...I do think our offense is outperforming our defense and that is the reason for our record. With that said I am entirely happy for the Patriots to win every game by gaining a big lead then just barely holding on to it. Hey, I am entirely good with the entire 2010 defense making only 1 stop a game....that being the stop they must have. With all that said, for whatever reason (be it unfounded concern or well founded logic) the coming Jet game has a big flashing red light on it regarding our method of victory (score a lot while making the critical stops on D).
With that said, it would take a lot more than a post or two to say how much I want to be wrong. If the Patriots win I will be the first, and happily so, to outright say my concern was not worthy.....and I should have kept the faith.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Great post. Yes, I am frustrated. Yes, our defense needs to bring the A game every week and listen to the coach, there is no slack.

Apprehensive? I guess. Seems like a glass half full thing. I'm massively enjoying this season and our wins over Pitt and Indy. The defense got the job done, I won't even discuss it. Peyton didn't walk into that locker room with a smile on his face, BB said that's what they were trying to do, they executed, both on the pressure and the Int, and deserve praise, not bashing.

(For any real new fans, That Peyton guy is pretty good. Well above average, in fact.)

Are they bound to fail, or are they gaining real world confidence to become better than the sum of there parts? I choose to believe the latter.

I believe a team can come together and play over their heads long enough to take it all (compare our 2001-2002 teams). I've also seen loaded teams of All Pros put up great statistics and go down like a lead balloon when it counted.

This is it, if this defense makes people nervous I don't know what to say. BB knows how to play them better than anyone. if you're expecting massive help, I have two words for you...Earthwind Moreland.

I say, enjoy the ride, life's too short. 9 wins in the bank and no Peyton faces or Raven whining can change that. We're very likely to go to the playoffs and I like our defense.

See my sig.

Earthwind Moreland? LOL. Yes, the defense does make me nervous only when we play teams that appear to have the ability to slow down our Offense (quite honestly I thought -- wrongly -- Pitt would keep us mostly off the board.). I do wish the D would gel when it comes to their red zone performance......but the perspective you bring is right on the mark. The bold part above is something I will need to read one or twice leading up to Monday's game. Monday night's game is the kind of game every P/J fan should look forward to.

 

[RayClay]

Those concerned only with wins during the regular season might best be served to pay attention to what coaches, and front offices, do. They make it abundantly clear that winning is not the only thing that matters.

Who said regular season? Obviously winning matters the most in the playoffs and Super bowl.

 

[RayClay]

Earthwind Moreland? LOL. Yes, the defense does make me nervous only when we play teams that appear to have the ability to slow down our Offense (quite honestly I thought -- wrongly -- Pitt would keep us mostly off the board.). I do wish the D would gel when it comes to their red zone performance......but the perspective you bring is right on the mark. The bold part above is something I will need to read one or twice leading up to Monday's game. Monday night's game is the kind of game every P/J fan should look forward to.

We are what we are. It's not just the defense, but look at our running game. Would I like to have Corey Dillon and Kevin Faulk? Sure. Am I very pleased with the performance of our two? Yeah. I think they are gaining confidence every game.

If we get into a low scoring slugfest, I'm sure we'll play differently on defense, we have the best coach. Will it succeed? No one knows.

I will say that young teams gain confidence by winning, so I gain confidence they can get the job done.

We are playing with house money this year, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just going to enjoy the ride.

 

[IllegalContact]

well....the pats defense can't stop anyone from moving the ball. it is obvious by the yardage and the points they have given up this year.

but this defense does make stops....enough of them where if the offense does close to what it is supposed to do, that they can beat anyone pretty easily.

I think they make plenty of stops....they just typically don't do it over an entire game. not much else can be expected from a defense starting 7 1st or 2nd year guys.

 

[BradyManny]

I'm a homer as much as the next guy, but this defense has only held its opposition under its scoring average twice in 10 tries.

That means 80% of the time, this defense is below average.

As long as it makes plays, we can still win. Felger's point from the get-go was the right one. So I'm not sure why there are such objections.

 

[Deus Irae]

Who said regular season? Obviously winning matters the most in the playoffs and Super bowl.

Well, the teams are not currently in the playoffs and Super Bowl.....