Best article from Reiss in quite a while

[tanked_as_usual]

I'd rather use a scale of one through ten, ten being an A+.....i'd give the pats about a 7 on they're drafting over the years since BB has been here. FA's are another matter for every Rodney it seems there are two or three Duane Starks, Tory James's, and Money Beisel's

I'd give him a 9 before 2004, a 3 since then.....and you can give similar grades to free agent activity.

right now, the relevance of this team hangs on 2 deals....the wes welker and randy moss deals.......outside of them, this team has roundly stunk it up since 2004

 

[Wretch]

if you subtract QB's from all rosters, I would probably take the rosters of 20-25 teams over the pats.......

you want me to provide facts to refute your hyperbole.......the pats are not a top 10 roster right now.....they have one starting LB and 1 starting DL. they have 1 starting WR and zero starting TE's.....their RB's are either old or not very good., their secondary?

the only positions with any kind of stability right now are OL and QB

as for my 4th round and later drafting claim from 2004-2008, they have 2 guys who have started.....ghostkowski and sanders........try to find a team that is worse......and don't tell me that the roster is so awesome.....it has had plenty of holes since 2005 and there have always been needs and players to fill them.

The Pats have 7 1st round picks on the team (out of 69 on the roster including PS). The average years of service in the NFL of the Pats roster is 4.68 years and players drafted by the Pats average being taken in the 105th slot, mid 3rd round. There are 4 Unrestricted FA on the roster, 3 trades (for draft picks), 15 Undrafted FA, by my count (A product of good scouting from the draft process)

I guess they have done a good job acquiring through the draft talent over the last 5 years and have gone 16-0, 11-5 (with a 7th rounder at QB), and 10-6 in the last 3 years, winning the division twice and going to the SB once.

So the Pats have made good use of day two picks, undrafted FA and trades, and have managed to be the team of the decade.

Here's to hyperbole.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

The Pats have 7 1st round picks on the team (out of 69 on the roster including PS). The average years of service in the NFL of the Pats roster is 4.68 years and players drafted by the Pats average being taken in the 105th slot, mid 3rd round. There are 4 Unrestricted FA on the roster, 3 trades (for draft picks), 15 Undrafted FA, by my count (A product of good scouting from the draft process)

I guess they have done a good job acquiring through the draft talent over the last 5 years and have gone 16-0, 11-5 (with a 7th rounder at QB), and 10-6 in the last 3 years, winning the division twice and going to the SB once.

So the Pats have made good use of day two picks, undrafted FA and trades, and have managed to be the team of the decade.
Here's to hyperbole.

yeah.....you are good at it.....not that any of it has anything to do with their success from the 4th round on......

one could easily conclude that there are 15 UDFA's on the roster because the drafting is bad.......guyton gets his chance because oscar lua was a flop......BJGE gets his chance because of Laurence Maroney......then you have guys like TBC coming back because crable and woods are useless...you give away draft picks for guys like derrick burgess because guys like crable and woods are useless...you opt for a UDFA QB because you wasted a pick on kevin Oconnell.........you have to use $$ and draft picks on guys like welker and moss because of disasters like johnson and jackson......even though you won 3 superbowls with guys like troy brown, david givens, and deion branch.

the philosophy that made this team great in the first place has left the building

 

[Wretch]

yeah.....you are good at it.....not that any of it has anything to do with their success from the 4th round on......

one could easily conclude that there are 15 UDFA's on the roster because the drafting is bad.......guyton gets his chance because oscar lua was a flop......BJGE gets his chance because of Laurence Maroney......then you have guys like TBC coming back because crable and woods are useless...you give away draft picks for guys like derrick burgess because guys like crable and woods are useless...you opt for a UDFA QB because you wasted a pick on kevin Oconnell.........you have to use $$ and draft picks on guys like welker and moss because of disasters like johnson and jackson......even though you won 3 superbowls with guys like troy brown, david givens, and deion branch.

the philosophy that made this team great in the first place has left the building

So you discount the acquisition of Welker in and Moss as good use of draft picks earlier and now cite the Burgess trade as proof of poor use of the draft resources. You don't get to use it both ways. Also if you are going to limit my arguments to 4th then you do to. Jackson, and Johnson were 2nds and Crable a 3rd. Even if we do expand the discussion regarding the Pats overall draft success the numbers still prove out that on the whole the Pats do a good job of evaluating talent. Citing 3 or 4 picks out of 70+ picks in a decade is anecdotal evidence not empirical. Using anecdotal evidence I can cite a Julian Edleman, Asante Samuel or Myron Pryor to every one of your Chad Jacksons, or Bethel Johnsons.

The Patriots have a young talented roster (on average being acquired in the last 5 years) and the players on the roster that were drafted were on average later than a 3rd round pick. Those 2 points disprove your arguments, that the Pats have been awful in later rounds in the past 5 years.

I am no way saying that the Pats are perfect or BB infallible but to claim there are 25 more talented teams in the NFL or that the Pats are one of the worst drafting teams on day 2 with nothing other than your opinion and a few anecdotal examples is misguided.

No one has a perfect drafting record, regardless of rounds, but there are few other people in the NFL I would rather have drafting for the Pats than BB. That is not kool-aid drinking but based on observations and analysis of past success.

 

[Kontradiction]

When this pick came up, I was hoping they would've taken Manningham. He should would look good in a Pats uniform right now.

Same here dude. I wanted Manningham so bad I could taste it. God forbid you should actually have brought it up during that time period. I did (it was one of my first few posts upon returning to the forum) and got yelled at by a gang of then PatsFans regulars (lead by DaBruinz) who called me an "idiot" because WR was "nowhere near a need". Fast forward two years later and, because of a lack of depth, the team is starting a career special teamer as a WR who had absolutely no business being on the field with our offense and KOC had just signed a contract with the Jets and gave Jabba insight to the way our offense works. I would be willing to bet that Manningham would have had a lot more production in our offense than Sam Aiken did. But alas, WR was not a need at that time, right?

:bricks:

 

[tanked_as_usual]

So you discount the acquisition of Welker in and Moss as good use of draft picks earlier and now cite the Burgess trade as proof of poor use of the draft resources. You don't get to use it both ways. Also if you are going to limit my arguments to 4th then you do to. Jackson, and Johnson were 2nds and Crable a 3rd. Even if we do expand the discussion regarding the Pats overall draft success the numbers still prove out that on the whole the Pats do a good job of evaluating talent. Citing 3 or 4 picks out of 70+ picks in a decade is anecdotal evidence not empirical. Using anecdotal evidence I can cite a Julian Edleman, Asante Samuel or Myron Pryor to every one of your Chad Jacksons, or Bethel Johnsons.

The Patriots have a young talented roster (on average being acquired in the last 5 years) and the players on the roster that were drafted were on average later than a 3rd round pick. Those 2 points disprove your arguments, that the Pats have been awful in later rounds in the past 5 years.

I am no way saying that the Pats are perfect or BB infallible but to claim there are 25 more talented teams in the NFL or that the Pats are one of the worst drafting teams on day 2 with nothing other than your opinion and a few anecdotal examples is misguided.

No one has a perfect drafting record, regardless of rounds, but there are few other people in the NFL I would rather have drafting for the Pats than BB. That is not kool-aid drinking but based on observations and analysis of past success.

I have always said trading picks is not drafting......the reference to burgess was simply to imply that it was a knee-jerk response to the fact that the 3rd round pick known as crable and the UDFA known as wood were abject failures.

again, feel free to refute may claim of the past 5 years with any kind of basis, but you have none........I am right.......having 2 players to show for in 5 years of rounds 4-7 drafting is about as poor as it can be. every other team I have looked at has had better success, so unless you can show me worse returns on 5 years of drafting in rounds 4-7 that is worse than the pats gostkowski and sanders....hell, you can even throw in cassel......I would even understand the argument that the pats have been so good that these guys simply could not make the team.....which would mean we should find some kind of success on another team.....but there is very little of that, too

find me worse than that and I will take back what I said

and you could easily question your claim to the pats having a young, talented roster......talented as in brady,moss....yes......but the young talent at this point is almost all 'potential' (you can say mayo and meriweather are talent, but it takes alot more than that to call it a young, talented roster)

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Same here dude. I wanted Manningham so bad I could taste it. God forbid you should actually have brought it up during that time period. I did (it was one of my first few posts upon returning to the forum) and got yelled at by a gang of then PatsFans regulars (lead by DaBruinz) who called me an "idiot" because WR was "nowhere near a need". Fast forward two years later and, because of a lack of depth, the team is starting a career special teamer as a WR who had absolutely no business being on the field with our offense and KOC had just signed a contract with the Jets and gave Jabba insight to the way our offense works. I would be willing to bet that Manningham would have had a lot more production in our offense than Sam Aiken did. But alas, WR was not a need at that time, right?

:bricks:

you can add me to this list........you can throw in the resident 'experts' opinions about LB, too.......my opinion has been always questioned about the fact that the pats have needed to draft LB's for year, but it pooh-poohed because either the pats needed someone very specific to their scheme, or it ain't worth drafting because it takes time to develop (as the LB groups average age was approaching 40), but the fact remains you need to play someone at LB and now they have nobody. in BB we trust with guys like justin roger, jerome mincey, oscar lua, and bo ruud....now, its a 'it will fix itself' attitude.......to coin rick pitino: 'tedy bruschi ain't walking in through that door'

 

[Wretch]

I have always said trading picks is not drafting......the reference to burgess was simply to imply that it was a knee-jerk response to the fact that the 3rd round pick known as crable and the UDFA known as wood were abject failures.

again, feel free to refute may claim of the past 5 years with any kind of basis, but you have none........I am right.......having 2 players to show for in 5 years of rounds 4-7 drafting is about as poor as it can be. every other team I have looked at has had better success, so unless you can show me worse returns on 5 years of drafting in rounds 4-7 that is worse than the pats gostkowski and sanders....hell, you can even throw in cassel......I would even understand the argument that the pats have been so good that these guys simply could not make the team.....which would mean we should find some kind of success on another team.....but there is very little of that, too

find me worse than that and I will take back what I said

and you could easily question your claim to the pats having a young, talented roster......talented as in brady,moss....yes......but the young talent at this point is almost all 'potential' (you can say mayo and meriweather are talent, but it takes alot more than that to call it a young, talented roster)

Gost, Sanders, Wilhite, Slater, Edelman, Pryor, Ohrnberger, Bussey and Ingram are all players on the roster drafted later than round 4. Moss was the result of a 4th rounder. Counting contributing UDFA that were product of the draft process, I will add Woods, Hoyer, Alexander, Green-Ellis, Wendell, Wright, Connolly and Guyton. All with less than 5 years experience.

So 9 players drafted, 1 player traded for and 8 UDFA. A few more than the 2 you claim.

Now name me your 20-25 more talented teams

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Gost, Sanders, Wilhite, Slater, Edelman, Pryor, Ohrnberger, Bussey and Ingram are all players on the roster drafted later than round 4. Moss was the result of a 4th rounder. Counting contributing UDFA that were product of the draft process, I will add Woods, Hoyer, Alexander, Green-Ellis, Wendell, Wright, Connolly and Guyton. All with less than 5 years experience.

So 9 players drafted, 1 player traded for and 8 UDFA. A few more than the 2 you claim.

Now name me your 20-25 more talented teams

I said a long time ago that I was talking prior to this past draft.....regardless....there are 2 starters from 6 YEARS of round 4-7 drafting......

removing QB's from the roster, I would take the: jets, dolphins, steelers, bengals, ravens, colts, texans, chargers, cowboys, eagles, giants, packers, vikings, saints, falcons, 9ers, cardinals.....17 teams

lots of UDFA's on your team is simply another symptom of poor day 2 drafting....like I said, guyton got his chance because of failures known as lua and ruud......etc

 

[Wretch]

I said a long time ago that I was talking prior to this past draft.....regardless....there are 2 starters from 6 YEARS of round 4-7 drafting......

removing QB's from the roster, I would take the: jets, dolphins, steelers, bengals, ravens, colts, texans, chargers, cowboys, eagles, giants, packers, vikings, saints, falcons, 9ers, cardinals.....17 teams

lots of UDFA's on your team is simply another symptom of poor day 2 drafting....like I said, guyton got his chance because of failures known as lua and ruud......etc

Ok now its 6 years and I didn't even count Cassel in my list. 17 teams is a far cry from 20-25 and I would strongly dispute GB, Dolphins, Bengals, Colts, Giants, Falcons, 49ers, and Cardinals even without Brady on the Pats. The Pats went 11-5 without Brady. None of those teams could do the same without their starting QB. As matter of fact most of them didn't even go 10-6 with their starter.

 

[emoney_33]

Ok now its 6 years and I didn't even count Cassel in my list. 17 teams is a far cry from 20-25 and I would strongly dispute GB, Dolphins, Bengals, Colts, Giants, Falcons, 49ers, and Cardinals even without Brady on the Pats. The Pats went 11-5 without Brady. None of those teams could do the same without their starting QB. As matter of fact most of them didn't even go 10-6 with their starter.

It's futile to argue with someone who wants to create their own rules.

Oh QBs don't count, and this year doesn't count, and the 1st 3 rounds don't count, and trades don't count, and undrafted free agents don't count, and nothing else counts except for things that help me kvetch!

 

[tanked_as_usual]

the rest of the NFL and their round 4-7 success since 2004...and I did this through stats as to avoid fluff like bussey and ohrnberger...these guys are contributors:
falcons - snelling, sidbury, nicholas, walker, adkins, biermann, lewis, grimes
cardinals - h johnson, toler, w davis, stevens-howling, iwebema, hightower, breaston, b patrick, g watson,
ravens - d hale, nakamura, j gaither, a barnes, l mcclain, troy smith, d williams, d landry, koch, d anderson
bills - nelson, harris, corner, fine, k simpson, b butler, k ellison...{AS BAD}
panthers - rosario, goodson, munnerlyn, hayden, cj wilson, j king
bears - steltz, z bowman, knox, k davis, beekman, k payne, c graham, j williams, m anderson, k orton, vasher
bengals - luigs, huber, trent, b scott, a collins, peko, geathers, andrews


so far, the bills are the worst and competing with the pats for worst rounds 4-7......everyone else has produced far superior ability.....I will continue this later.....just looking at the names other teams have produced, yeah, the pats late rounds really do stink...so far, every team has produced someone better than the best the pats have

 

[tanked_as_usual]

It's futile to argue with someone who wants to create their own rules.

Oh QBs don't count, and this year doesn't count, and the 1st 3 rounds don't count, and trades don't count, and undrafted free agents don't count, and nothing else counts except for things that help me kvetch!

hahah.......as the pats downward spiral continues......you 2 should go make love somewhere

dude.....feel free to refute anything I say, but please.....stop sitting there and whining with tons of nothing

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Ok now its 6 years and I didn't even count Cassel in my list. 17 teams is a far cry from 20-25 and I would strongly dispute GB, Dolphins, Bengals, Colts, Giants, Falcons, 49ers, and Cardinals even without Brady on the Pats. The Pats went 11-5 without Brady. None of those teams could do the same without their starting QB. As matter of fact most of them didn't even go 10-6 with their starter.

no.....its been since 2004 all along in case you weren't paying attention......go back and read and then go make love to emoney

17 is 3 less than 20......but since you agree with the list, the point is made

as for cassel....you did not incluce him...I did.....but I still think he is as bad as the guy who nearly got released at the beginning of 2008........circumstance allowed the pats to get a 2nd rounder for him

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Same here dude. I wanted Manningham so bad I could taste it. God forbid you should actually have brought it up during that time period. I did (it was one of my first few posts upon returning to the forum) and got yelled at by a gang of then PatsFans regulars (lead by DaBruinz) who called me an "idiot" because WR was "nowhere near a need". Fast forward two years later and, because of a lack of depth, the team is starting a career special teamer as a WR who had absolutely no business being on the field with our offense and KOC had just signed a contract with the Jets and gave Jabba insight to the way our offense works. I would be willing to bet that Manningham would have had a lot more production in our offense than Sam Aiken did. But alas, WR was not a need at that time, right?
:bricks:

Manningham was a first round talent that dropped to the 3rd round I think because of his attitude or injury, I can't remember. However, his 40 time did play into it as well because people thought he would've ran a lot faster than he did. Every time I saw the guy play in college, he was schooling DB's. The Giants got a steal in the 3rd round and it's a shame because the Pats could've had him. It still ticks me off how the Pats wasted a 3rd round pick on a QB when Brady just turned 30.

 

[Wretch]

no.....its been since 2004 all along in case you weren't paying attention......go back and read and then go make love to emoney

The Colts for comparison purposes have 35 drafted players average round of selection is 3.8. They have 8 players selected in the 1st round, 14 players selected in round 4 or later. They have 17 UDFAs and 15 FA and 1 UFA (a kicker we may know).

The Pats have 31 drafted players, average pick is 105 (mid 3rd). 7 1st round players, 9 Players drafted in round 4 or later, 15 UDFA, 4 UFA, 14 FA and 3 players from trades.

The Colts are generally held up as a great drafting team and you say you would rather have their roster than the Pats. The numbers show that the Pats draft is comparable to the Colts. The Pats have more UFAs and we've used 4 picks to acquire 3 players, two of whom are all pros. They have more UDFA (which according to your logic means they don't draft well). They have 4 more drafted players on their team but have one more 1st rounder and more late rounders which may mean they miss more in rounds 2 and 3 than the Pats.

You have been consistently been referring to the the past 5 years not since 2004, but that still doesn't change the my argument. The Pats are a good drafting team and a good team at evaluating and developing UDFA talent and the numbers back that up. They aren't perfect but they are also not the Lions, Rams, Bears, Bucs, or KC.

 

[Wretch]

no.....its been since 2004 all along in case you weren't paying attention......go back and read and then go make love to emoney

17 is 3 less than 20......but since you agree with the list, the point is made

as for cassel....you did not incluce him...I did.....but I still think he is as bad as the guy who nearly got released at the beginning of 2008........circumstance allowed the pats to get a 2nd rounder for him

Actually if you read my reply I disagree with most of the teams you listed.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Actually if you read my reply I disagree with most of the teams you listed.

yeah, but what do you know......I am in the process of making my point team by team and will enjoy your kool-aid induced baseless pooh-poohing of that

of course you will prefer a team with little to no LB's or DL's because its your team.......you are a homer and it is clear

 

[tanked_as_usual]

It's futile to argue with someone who wants to create their own rules.

Oh QBs don't count, and this year doesn't count, and the 1st 3 rounds don't count, and trades don't count, and undrafted free agents don't count, and nothing else counts except for things that help me kvetch!

we can include all rounds if you really like.......the 2nd and 3rd rounds have particularly been a joke....nothing like getting a collective next to zero out of bethel johnson, chad jackson, marquise hill (RIP), kevin oconnell, shawn crable, david thomas, ron brace......

continue to let me know how successfult the pats were with outstanding value for ben watson, laurence maroney, brandon meriweather, jerod mayo.......it is clear the ship is right on track for its next championship

 

[Wretch]

the rest of the NFL and their round 4-7 success since 2004...and I did this through stats as to avoid fluff like bussey and ohrnberger...these guys are contributors:
falcons - snelling, sidbury, nicholas, walker, adkins, biermann, lewis, grimes
cardinals - h johnson, toler, w davis, stevens-howling, iwebema, hightower, breaston, b patrick, g watson,
ravens - d hale, nakamura, j gaither, a barnes, l mcclain, troy smith, d williams, d landry, koch, d anderson
bills - nelson, harris, corner, fine, k simpson, b butler, k ellison...{AS BAD}
panthers - rosario, goodson, munnerlyn, hayden, cj wilson, j king
bears - steltz, z bowman, knox, k davis, beekman, k payne, c graham, j williams, m anderson, k orton, vasher
bengals - luigs, huber, trent, b scott, a collins, peko, geathers, andrews


so far, the bills are the worst and competing with the pats for worst rounds 4-7......everyone else has produced far superior ability.....I will continue this later.....just looking at the names other teams have produced, yeah, the pats late rounds really do stink...so far, every team has produced someone better than the best the pats have

So being on a deep team means the Pats late rounders aren't contributors because they can't beat out all pros for playing time? If all those teams are so great at drafting why aren't they all challenging for the SB or even the playoffs every year.

The Raven's have been good, but calling Troy Smith a contributor and then dismissing Cassel, please. The Cards have done well in the later rounds but they also didn't start with the same depth as the Pats, something true of every team you list. Its tough for late round rookies to make the roster of a deep team that consistently sends players to the pro bowl and goes to the playoffs and SB regularly.