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The Vince Wilfork situation (merged)


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see, this is the double standard of every fan

yea we have him by the balls now and think thats fine, basically holding him hostage under the tag but when a guy like asante leaves everyone attacks him saying hes not a true "patriot guy"

well, big vince is and he should be rewarded for it
 
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Agreed there is no comparison, but that's because Vince was a mid-round 1 picka and Brace nearly a full round later.

Are you arguing that BB played Vince b/c of his draft status or his talent-level/ability to contribute?

Not saying we can rely on Brace to start or anything next year, but the fact remains Wilfork wasn't the Wilfork we knew his rookie year,

Of course. He simply improved. But he played a decent amount his rookie year because of his talent level, better technique and ability to pick up the role that they wanted him to play in the D. If Brace did 75% of what VW did in 04 he would have played more.

and one would expect a 2nd rounder (on average) to need more time to get up to speed than a 1st rounder.

I expect a 1st rounder to play more than a 2nd rounder b/c they have more talent. All things being equal a 1st rounder should get up to speed as quick as a UFA. Getting up to speed is a coaching/player commitment/practice/intelligence thing.
 
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see, this is the double standard of every fan

yea we have him by the balls now and think thats fine, basically holding him hostage under the tag

The NFLPA agreed to the Ts and Cs of the tag. Look at both sides.

but when a guy like asante leaves everyone attacks him saying hes not a true "patriot guy"

Asante wanted the cash. I have no problem with what he did. I have a problem with what Branch did but that is a separate issue.

well, big vince is and he should be rewarded for it

I don't get this reasoning. Why should he be rewarded? Shouldn't the Patriots be rewarded for scouting, drafting, coaching, mentoring, playing and paying him for 6 years? The Pats benefited financially from Vince. Vince benefited financially playing for a marquee team. The tag is in place. Vince will be paid what $7.003m in a single year. I know he wants a long term deal but thats they way the ball bounced and his union agreed to it.
 
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Are you arguing that BB played Vince b/c of his draft status or his talent-level/ability to contribute?

No, I'm saying if Brace was expected to be good enough to break into a fairly deep defensively line, he likely would have been taken in the 1st round, as Vince was. Sometimes they surprise you, but after the 1st round there's very little guarantee of immediate playtime. It doesn't mean the player won't get better, even drastically so in future years.

Of course. He simply improved. But he played a decent amount his rookie year because of his talent level, better technique and ability to pick up the role that they wanted him to play in the D. If Brace did 75% of what VW did in 04 he would have played more..

And again, you expect a 1st rounder to have more talent, better technique, and better ability to pick up roles than a 2nd rounder. There's always exceptions, but that is the expectation.

I expect a 1st rounder to play more than a 2nd rounder b/c they have more talent. All things being equal a 1st rounder should get up to speed as quick as a UFA. Getting up to speed is a coaching/player commitment/practice/intelligence thing.

True, but not every player drafted in later rounds is done so simply based on talent. Sometimes they have less talent, other times they have talent but question marks in intangibles like football instincts, intelligence, maturity, work ethic, off the field issues, etc. To expect every player to learn and adapt to NFL play at the same rate is unrealistic.
 
I don't get this reasoning. Why should he be rewarded? Shouldn't the Patriots be rewarded for scouting, drafting, coaching, mentoring, playing and paying him for 6 years? The Pats benefited financially from Vince. Vince benefited financially playing for a marquee team. The tag is in place. Vince will be paid what $7.003m in a single year. I know he wants a long term deal but thats they way the ball bounced and his union agreed to it.

Putting the franchise tag on Wilfork does not prohibit the Pats from reaching a long-term agreement with him.
 
No, I'm saying if Brace was expected to be good enough to break into a fairly deep defensively line, he likely would have been taken in the 1st round, as Vince was. Sometimes they surprise you, but after the 1st round there's very little guarantee of immediate playtime. It doesn't mean the player won't get better, even drastically so in future years.

Ok...I see what you are saying now. I tend to think that the Pats liked Brace's upside and thought that he may contribute some this year. The fact that he didn't was perhaps a small disappointment to the coaching staff but not one that has discouraged them......I think?

And again, you expect a 1st rounder to have more talent, better technique, and better ability to pick up roles than a 2nd rounder. There's always exceptions, but that is the expectation.

We agree.

True, but not every player drafted in later rounds is done so simply based on talent. Sometimes they have less talent, other times they have talent but question marks in intangibles like football instincts, intelligence, maturity, work ethic, off the field issues, etc. To expect every player to learn and adapt to NFL play at the same rate is unrealistic.

We agree. All the things you mention are factors in "draft-ability"
 
Since the owners opted out of the CBA in May, 2008 28 teams have been able to sign a veteran player to a big contract. Please note that some teams have signed two or more players but I just listed one per team.

If the above 28 teams could do it, why couldn't the Patriots??

Yes, but most of those players are not in the same situation. Let's go through them all:

Oakland Asomugha - Couldn't come to terms with a deal and was an exclusive rights franchise tagged player for one year and then was signed a year later. So the Pats have a long way to go before they get to that point with Wilfork.

NYJ Bart Scott - Signed a 6 year, $48 million which per year is only about $1 million more a year than AD is getting plus he was a free agent. If Wilfork agreed to 6 years, $48 million, he would be resigned right now

Miami Carey - Contract is 6 years, $45 million. Again Wilfork would be resigned if it was the contract he was looking for.

KC Cassel - Singed a six year, $63 million which is not even close to top QB money. He was also a trade.

Philadelphia Celek - Six years, $33 million. Not chump change for a TE, but really not a huge contract

Chicago Cutler - The Bears gambled on him to be their franchise QB of the future. Had to pay him. Still a young QB, not a in his prime NT

Carolina Delhomme - Five years, $42 million isn't exactly a big contract for a QB. Were forced to extend him for cap room because they franchised Peppers and needed cap space to sign rookies and couldn't cut him.

NYG Eli - I am still dumbfounded by that contract. Again a young franchise QB

Buffalo Evans - Four years, $37 million - A good deal for a non-elite WR, but nowhere near the money Wilfork will get.

Pittsburgh Harrison

Indy Hayden - Five years, $43 million is not a huge contract for a CB

Washington Haynesworth - A free agent signed by Daniel Snyder. Enough said. He is probably the reason why Wilfork doesn't have a new deal because of the ridiculousness of his contract

Seattle Hill - Was franchised and then signed to a 6 year, $38 million deal which is not exactly a huge contract and probably more than half of what Wilfork is looking for

Jacksonville MJD

San Diego Rivers - One of the four or five best QBs in the league and still has 10 years ahead of him if not injured

Green Bay Rodgers - Ditto

Houston Schaub - Signed a six year, $48 million contract less than a month after the Pats gave Adalius Thomas his contract. If the Texans get credit for Schaub, the Pats. Moss got his deal after Schaub. They plan to pick up his option, but his deal was done in 2007

San Francisco Staley - Signed a six year, $42 million extension that locks him up for 9 years with the 49ers. He won't be a free agent until 2017.

St. Louis Stephen Jackson - Six years, $44 million. Good RB money, not even close to what Wilfork will get with a hometown discount

Baltimore Suggs - Had to be franchised in both the 2008 and 2009 seasons until they got a deal done in the spring of 2009. This is an argument in favor of tagging Wilfork and letting him play out his deal

New Orleans Vilma - Five years, $34 million. Again a good deal, but chump change compared to Wilfork

Dallas Ware Six year, $78 million. Around the money Wilfork is probably looking for, but Ware might be the best defender in the game

Tennessee Washington - Six years, $27 million. That is not a big deal

Atlanta White 6 year, $48 million Not top dollar for a WR, not close to what Vince would want

Arizona Wilson 5 years, $39 million. Not a huge, but not a small contract. Big for a safety

Minnesota Winfield - 5 years $36 million. Not top dollar for a CB

Tampa Bay Winslow Six year, $36 million. Again, nowhere close to Vince although high for a TE

Denver D.J. Williams - 5 years, $32 million signed the same offseason that the Pats gave Randy Moss 3 years, $27 million

I don't get why teams like Houston and Denver get credit for signing deals in the offseasons of 2007 and 2008 and the Pats don't get credit the same for Randy Moss or Adalius Thomas?
 
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see, this is the double standard of every fan

yea we have him by the balls now and think thats fine, basically holding him hostage under the tag but when a guy like asante leaves everyone attacks him saying hes not a true "patriot guy"

well, big vince is and he should be rewarded for it

Big Vince should be rewarded for performance on the field. But it appears Big Vince thinks he is worth X and the Patriots think he is worth Y. Since we are not privy to the negotiations, I don;t see how we can judge which side is right and which side is wrong.

Right now we do not have a legitimate 16 game starting NT on the roster. Maybe we can move Warren or Wright in there for extended periods of time, but neither could last a full season.

Brace JAG based on what little I saw of him. Pryor, hard to tell what we have with him.

So what is next. Does BB use the franchise tag? Proabably. Does Wilfork hold out? Proabably, but whether he does or does not, you can bet that he does not report unless he has a committment from BB to not use the tag again next offseason.
 
Putting the franchise tag on Wilfork does not prohibit the Pats from reaching a long-term agreement with him.

Of course. Vince's problem with the tag is if the Pats will use it to keep him here and not make a genuine effort to negotiate in good faith.

Last week I was reading some comments from Dwight Freeney regarding the time he was tagged by the Colts and was asked if it bothered him. He said no. His reasoning was that the Colts were very up-front with what they were doing from a planning and team building standpoint, and that they wanted him here for a long time and the tag was a mechanism that they wanted to use to extend the negotiating period and make sure he stayed in Indy.

Based on VW comments, it sounds like the Pats were not as user-friendly with VW. Who knows why though. Is the agent a jerk? Are the Pats jerks? Is Vince unreasonable? Who knows?
 
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Because it was #2 in the NFL in 2007? :confused2:

Remember your own line though, sack is not synonymous with pass rush. Do you think we had the 2nd best pass rush in 2007? Particularly once Rosie went down?

Because of the prolific offense, this defense had more clear pass rushing opportunities. Vrabel - of all the defenders - was the biggest beneficiary of this. The guy had 12.5 sacks, but I can't remember one of them being important, and I know most were in the first half of the season.

The pass rush needs fixin.
 
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Kris Jenkins got a 5 year 30m contract in 2008. Now Vince is a better player than Jenkins (not by that much though) and inflation will make the deal larger. .


Sorry can't agree. Kris Jenkins is a much better player than Wilfork and it is 100% correct that he is a 2 down run stuffing DT who can't generate a pass rush. Definitely worth decent bot not great dollars.
PATS are right to be cautious here..anything else will throw their salary structure out of wack for years to come. It is not like the PATS D is exactly dominating with him in there.

Hello franchise tAG
 
this is why the tag is great! We slap it on..... and he really can't do anything :):):).



He is not going to "sit out" in his prime..... these are big years for him.
Vince..... we got the leverage and we control your destiny :). Just play football for 1-2 years and we w.ill trade you to someone who is willing to lock you up "LONG TERM".

Tag, Tag/trade.


That is what will happen....


In 2-3 yrs we will trade him to an an organization in the NFC or elsewhere no threatening to the Patriots. (Probably 2...)

This is Chess not Checkers:) Vince is a victim, but making good $$$.....


I do not sympathize...... we are just taking advantage of salary situation:)
 
Of course. Vince's problem with the tag is if the Pats will use it to keep him here and not make a genuine effort to negotiate in good faith.

Last week I was reading some comments from Dwight Freeney regarding the time he was tagged by the Colts and was asked if it bothered him. He said no. His reasoning was that the Colts were very up-front with what they were doing from a planning and team building standpoint, and that they wanted him here for a long time and the tag was a mechanism that they wanted to use to extend the negotiating period and make sure he stayed in Indy.

Based on VW comments, it sounds like the Pats were not as user-friendly with VW. Who knows why though. Is the agent a jerk? Are the Pats jerks? Is Vince unreasonable? Who knows?
im going to go with the the pats are the "jerks"
although jerk isnt the right word, its the way they have always been, i would love for the pats to treat this situation like the colt did with freeney but we all know that wont happen
 
Sorry can't agree. Kris Jenkins is a much better player than Wilfork and it is 100% correct that he is a 2 down run stuffing DT who can't generate a pass rush. Definitely worth decent bot not great dollars.
PATS are right to be cautious here..anything else will throw their salary structure out of wack for years to come. It is not like the PATS D is exactly dominating with him in there.

Hello franchise tAG

Jenkins is not better than Wilfork. The only NT in the league who might be better than Wilfork doesn't even play the position, because his team's running a 4-3 now, and that's Ngata.
 
Yes, but most of those players are not in the same situation.

I am not arguing that Wilfork is in the same situation. I am arguing that it seems very possible that the CBA did not make it impossible for Wilfork to be extended.
 
I don't get this taking sides over Wilfork thing. We don't know what Vince is asking for or what the Pats have offered. We do know that the Pats made an offer before the 2009 season that Wilfork rejected. There were also some brief discussions during the season that were ended as both sides agreed to wait until after the season. If Vince wants a Albert Haynesworth type deal then he is deluding himself and the Pats are right not to give it to him.

Kris Jenkins got a 5 year 30m contract in 2008. Now Vince is a better player than Jenkins (not by that much though) and inflation will make the deal larger. Something like 5 years 40million with 20-24m guaranteed sounds reasonable to me. James Harrison signed a 50m deal with 20 odd guaranteed as the DPOY. Vince is a great player but he's not a gamechanger and I guess the Pats have a value assigned to the position.

Additionally the Pats have Wilfork over a barrel. They will not cave to his demands because they can franchise him, get another year out of him and re-visit it next year. For all we know there might be a lockout and everyone misses a year.

these are the facts and unfortunately Vince is in a tough position. He says he wants security for him and his family. Maybe he should just accept the Pats offer if it is reasonable, otherwise he is going to get another year or two of doubt and insecurity.


NFL teams will be arguing deflation this year. Julius Peppers spurned a contract that was bigger than Haynesworth's. He's a fool.
 
Philadelphia Celek - Six years, $33 million. Not chump change for a TE, but really not a huge contract

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under the Cap: Top Ten Tight Ends

Even so, put Shawn Andrews in Celek's place.

Carolina Delhomme - Five years, $42 million isn't exactly a big contract for a QB. Were forced to extend him for cap room because they franchised Peppers and needed cap space to sign rookies and couldn't cut him.
Put either Jordan Gross or Chris Gamble.

Indy Hayden - Five years, $43 million is not a huge contract for a CB
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under the Cap: Top Ten Cornerbacks
says differently

Seattle Hill - Was franchised and then signed to a 6 year, $38 million deal which is not exactly a huge contract and probably more than half of what Wilfork is looking for
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under the Cap: Top Ten OLB
says otherwise. Why is it that sometimes you say that it is not a huge contract for a position and sometimes you do??

Houston Schaub - Signed a six year, $48 million contract less than a month after the Pats gave Adalius Thomas his contract. If the Texans get credit for Schaub, the Pats. Moss got his deal after Schaub. They plan to pick up his option, but his deal was done in 2007
I got the date wrong. Replace Schaub with Antonio Smith.

Tennessee Washington - Six years, $27 million. That is not a big deal
Let's remove Tennessee from the list.

Atlanta White 6 year, $48 million Not top dollar for a WR, not close to what Vince would want.
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Under the Cap: Top Ten Wide Receivers
put White's contract among the Top 10 contracts for a WR.

Minnesota Winfield - 5 years $36 million. Not top dollar for a CB
Then take Minnesota off the list

Denver D.J. Williams - 5 years, $32 million signed the same offseason that the Pats gave Randy Moss 3 years, $27 million

Denver Broncos Sign LB D.J. Williams To ContractExtension - Mile High Report

I don't get why teams like Houston and Denver get credit for signing deals in the offseasons of 2007 and 2008 and the Pats don't get credit the same for Randy Moss or Adalius Thomas?
Moss and Adalius Thomas were signed to their deals BEFORE the owners opted out of the CBA. Even if I got the date of the Schaub contract wrong that does not change the date of the Moss and Thomas' contracts:)

Players not previously mentioned
Ken Hamlin
Gibril Wilson
DeAngelo Hall
Corey Webster
Brian Urlacher
Ray Lewis
Luis Castello
Tommie Harris
Jason Brown
Chris Snee
Jason Peters
Heath Miller
Roy Williams
Greg Jennings
Westbrook
Brandon Jacobs
 
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Jenkins is not better than Wilfork. The only NT in the league who might be better than Wilfork doesn't even play the position, because his team's running a 4-3 now, and that's Ngata.

Well said, even though I love Vince as a player and he seems to be a legit good guy off of the field, Ngata I think is just a little better then he is.
 
Top 99 Free Agents

Per the Sporting News, Vince Wilfork is the #1 "unrestricted" Free Agent in this year's crop. Should NE "tag" Vince, is there any doubt they can find some team who is willing to offer at "least" a high second for the chance to pay Vince big bucks? NE holds the cards.
 
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