The Vince Wilfork situation (merged)

[ScottieC]

1) Wilfork is most likely gone. He won't get franchised(Pats don't do this typically)
2) No team is stupid enough to give a #1 and #2 for a NT, and I don't care if player is a perennial pro-bowler and 1st ballot HOF....NFL is a business and the draft picks are very valuable commodities
3) Pryor is a backup at best, and Brace looks to be another Marquise Hill in the making if he could not beat our Pryor last year

1. Wilfork will be franchised, you can take that to the bank. He'll also probably hold out of training camp and maybe a game, but he will play. Just be prepared for the Hold out - and I'm sure they already are.

2. Really? Might want to clear your comments with Al Davis first.

3. Irrelevant, Wilfork will play that roll.

 

[Deus Irae]

The unbelievable reach for Brace in the draft last year makes at least some sense now. Pats knew the chances were fairly slim that they could work out a long-term deal with Vince.

Brace was generally projected as a 2nd or 3rd round pick. I'm not sure how that makes a player chosen in that 2nd round an "unbelievable reach".

 

[RobertWeathers]

But it's blowing up in their face because Brace hasn't shown any indication that he can play.

He had some spots vs Buffalo. Gotta give the kid a year to see what he can do.

 

[zimmy]

I don't get this taking sides over Wilfork thing. We don't know what Vince is asking for or what the Pats have offered. We do know that the Pats made an offer before the 2009 season that Wilfork rejected. There were also some brief discussions during the season that were ended as both sides agreed to wait until after the season. If Vince wants a Albert Haynesworth type deal then he is deluding himself and the Pats are right not to give it to him.

Kris Jenkins got a 5 year 30m contract in 2008. Now Vince is a better player than Jenkins (not by that much though) and inflation will make the deal larger. Something like 5 years 40million with 20-24m guaranteed sounds reasonable to me. James Harrison signed a 50m deal with 20 odd guaranteed as the DPOY. Vince is a great player but he's not a gamechanger and I guess the Pats have a value assigned to the position.

Additionally the Pats have Wilfork over a barrel. They will not cave to his demands because they can franchise him, get another year out of him and re-visit it next year. For all we know there might be a lockout and everyone misses a year.

these are the facts and unfortunately Vince is in a tough position. He says he wants security for him and his family. Maybe he should just accept the Pats offer if it is reasonable, otherwise he is going to get another year or two of doubt and insecurity.

 

[fgssand]

When your defense is so bad that an exerienced NFL coach like Bill Belichich won't punt the ball from his own 28 yard line because he KNOWS they can't make a stop, nobody is "indispensible".

Wilfork is one of the best run-stopping D linemen in a league that increasingly pass-oriented. It doesn't matter that the Pats stopped the run on 1st down when they couldn't defend a 3rd down pass.

I certainly don't know the answers to improving the Pats defense against the fast-break style offenses in the NFL, but I'm guessing that Belichick and Ernie Adams have some data-driven ideas.

Can't argue with that loic, you are dead nuts on there - he is taken out on 3rd down all the time - so if a 7MM tag is a slap in the face, I don't get it.

Wish we knew what we offered and what he refused / wants. Is he willing to compromise? Are we low balling?? we'll never know.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't get this taking sides over Wilfork thing. We don't know what Vince is asking for or what the Pats have offered. We do know that the Pats made an offer before the 2009 season that Wilfork rejected. There were also some brief discussions during the season that were ended as both sides agreed to wait until after the season. If Vince wants a Albert Haynesworth type deal then he is deluding himself and the Pats are right not to give it to him.

Kris Jenkins got a 5 year 30m contract in 2008. Now Vince is a better player than Jenkins (not by that much though) and inflation will make the deal larger. Something like 5 years 40million with 20-24m guaranteed sounds reasonable to me. James Harrison signed a 50m deal with 20 odd guaranteed as the DPOY. Vince is a great player but he's not a gamechanger and I guess the Pats have a value assigned to the position.

Additionally the Pats have Wilfork over a barrel. They will not cave to his demands because they can franchise him, get another year out of him and re-visit it next year. For all we know there might be a lockout and everyone misses a year.

these are the facts and unfortunately Vince is in a tough position. He says he wants security for him and his family. Maybe he should just accept the Pats offer if it is reasonable, otherwise he is going to get another year or two of doubt and insecurity.

Who is taking sides? Every post I have read is basically saying, 'I like Vince, not sure if he is worth big dollars or not sure the Pats will pay up to keep him'.

In his prime, Jenkins is better than Wilfork.

 

[JMarr]

Brace was generally projected as a 2nd or 3rd round pick. I'm not sure how that makes a player chosen in that 2nd round an "unbelievable reach".

Given what the team's strengths appeared to be at the time, maybe "incredibly puzzling decision" is a better way of putting it.

 

[BradyManny]

We won't just let him walk. At worst, we tag & trade him.

Which I'd probably be OK with. I'm in the camp that thinks Wilfork is mildly overvalued by the media/board here.

The thing, to me, about Wilfork is - he will never be on field in the 4th quarter to close out a game. The reason we lost the 2007 SB was because we lacked the guy who could end a game with his pass rush. Wilfork will never be that guy. So how much do we pay him?

I know its a chicken and egg argument - do you need a run stopper who can force the team to pass? Or do you need a pass rusher to get you off the field on 3rd downs? Frankly, you need both - but the league is getting so pass heavy, and the elite teams are predicated on great QBs, so I believe the latter has exceeded the value of the former.

 

[Bring Back Antowain!]

Asante Samuel and Adam Vinatieri say hello.

Don't forget Matt Cassel, and the issue over a possible tagging of Deion Branch.

I don't know what that guy is smoking, Pats are one of the most active teams in the NFL in terms of taking advantage of the tag.

The Pats don't typically use the tag? Has that person followed the Pats at all?

 

[DonBlackmon55]

1. Wilfork will be franchised, you can take that to the bank. He'll also probably hold out of training camp and maybe a game, but he will play. Just be prepared for the Hold out - and I'm sure they already are.

2. Really? Might want to clear your comments with Al Davis first.

3. Irrelevant, Wilfork will play that roll.

Since Pats FO was so smart to recognize VW will hold out and will have to be franchised, that's why Brace was drafted in 2nd Rd last year, right, or later had Pryor playing as well.
Pats are not paying top 3 $$ be it Franchise or no-Franchise for a run stuffing 2 down NT which is what VW is, and you can take that to the bank. Wilfork is no more valuble than was Seymour.

Al Davis has given up a #1 and #2 for a NT ?? Show me the evidence :singing:

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Vince's agent is his wife. Does anyone really think she is going to pass on $$$$ due to principle?

Anybody have any idea what $$$ signs have been exchanged?

Anybody remember Vince in 2004? Brace talk is somewhat premature.

No pass rush on the Tyree miracle catch? Somebody needs to watch the play.

Back to the defense can't stop anyone when we were 5th in the league in points allowed.

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Don't forget Matt Cassel, and the issue over a possible tagging of Deion Branch.

I don't know what that guy is smoking, Pats are one of the most active teams in the NFL in terms of taking advantage of the tag.

The Pats don't typically use the tag? Has that person followed the Pats at all?

Smoking reality......read everything before you start talking out of your a**
I said "typically". Surely by your theory the Pats are most active in franchse tag, they also must've tagged
-Law as he was their #1 CB
-Branch (was not tagged, threat means nothing...Pats FO f'd this up themselves by allowing him to get price from other teams)
-Cassel they tagged b/c they knew they wanted to trade him as he had value. You really think the FO were idiots and would have tagged Cassel had
TB not been hurt that year ??
-Givens #2 WR, not tagged
-Graham #1 TE not tagged

The'yve only used Tag for AV since there was no other option to get a Kicker, and more important K are reasonble cost as his tag # was around 2-2.5M. Furthermore, letting him walk after SB wins wouldve been PR fiasco.

Samuel they reluctantly gave Tag since again there was no other option. Next year they let him walk

Don't tell me Pats use Franchise like they're so loving of keeping the players.

Suffice to say I've followed Pats lot longer than your bandwagon Antowain Smith Avatar likely pulled after SB36

 

[DonBlackmon55]

Vince's agent is his wife. Does anyone really think she is going to pass on $$$$ due to principle?

Anybody have any idea what $$$ signs have been exchanged?

Anybody remember Vince in 2004? Brace talk is somewhat premature.

No pass rush on the Tyree miracle catch? Somebody needs to watch the play.

Back to the defense can't stop anyone when we were 5th in the league in points allowed.[/QUOTE]

Well that's because we play bend and not break style, but stats can skew things to make it look good since we did play some pathetic offenses at the time (Buffalo 2, Tampa, Carolina, Titans, Jacksonville, and Jets 2 with rookie QB). On the other hand we got crushed vs. good O's like Indy and NO, and to lesser extent Houston

Though, I agree, Defense is not the problem with this team. Its hard for any team to stop Indy or NO, much less with the reconstructed D we were throwing out weekly, along with pouters like AD and Burgess

 

[Miguel]

They're not going to just let him walk; Matt Cassel can attest to that.

We don't know how far apart they are; I also don't know that they could have devised an acceptable extension during the 2009 season because of the special salary cap rules in place to prevent teams from skirting the salary cap by shifting money into the uncapped years.

Since the owners opted out of the CBA in May, 2008 28 teams have been able to sign a veteran player to a big contract. Please note that some teams have signed two or more players but I just listed one per team.

Oakland Asomugha
NYJ Bart Scott
Miami Carey
KC Cassel
Philadelphia Celek
Chicago Cutler
Carolina Delhomme
NYG Eli
Buffalo Evans
Pittsburgh Harrison
Indy Hayden
Washington Haynesworth
Seattle Hill
Jacksonville MJD
San Diego Rivers
Green Bay Rodgers
Houston Schaub
San Francisco Staley
St. Louis Stephen Jackson
Baltimore Suggs
New Orleans Vilma
Dallas Ware
Tennessee Washington
Atlanta White
Arizona Wilson
Minnesota Winfield
Tampa Bay Winslow
Denver D.J. Williams
Cleveland -
Cincinnati -
Detroit -
New England

If the above 28 teams could do it, why couldn't the Patriots??

 

[Deus Irae]

Given what the team's strengths appeared to be at the time, maybe "incredibly puzzling decision" is a better way of putting it.

Given that they didn't have a legitimate backup nose tackle on the roster, what's so puzzling about the team drafting a nose tackle?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Anybody remember Vince in 2004? Brace talk is somewhat premature.

Vince was much better in 04 than Brace in 09. There is no comparison b/t/w the two.

 

[BradyManny]

Vince's agent is his wife. Does anyone really think she is going to pass on $$$$ due to principle?

Anybody have any idea what $$$ signs have been exchanged?

Anybody remember Vince in 2004? Brace talk is somewhat premature.

No pass rush on the Tyree miracle catch? Somebody needs to watch the play.

Back to the defense can't stop anyone when we were 5th in the league in points allowed.

I've seen it plenty - were they able to sack Manning or not?

2006 - Couldn't get off the field in the 4th quarter v. Peyton Manning
2007 - Couldn't stop Eli Manning in a 2 minute drill
2008 - 3rd & 15 vs the Jets in OT ultimately derails playoff hopes

How can someone argue that this team's pass rush and pass defense has not been a main problem the past several years.

As for 5th in the league in points - who cares? Both offensive and defensive stats are more telling when the opponent is taken into consideration, and when one does, our defense was 17th in the league (FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2009 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS).

 

[dhamz]

Smoking reality......read everything before you start talking out of your a**
I said "typically". Surely by your theory the Pats are most active in franchse tag, they also must've tagged
-Law as he was their #1 CB
-Branch (was not tagged, threat means nothing...Pats FO f'd this up themselves by allowing him to get price from other teams)
-Cassel they tagged b/c they knew they wanted to trade him as he had value. You really think the FO were idiots and would have tagged Cassel had
TB not been hurt that year ??
-Givens #2 WR, not tagged
-Graham #1 TE not tagged

The'yve only used Tag for AV since there was no other option to get a Kicker, and more important K are reasonble cost as his tag # was around 2-2.5M. Furthermore, letting him walk after SB wins wouldve been PR fiasco.

Samuel they reluctantly gave Tag since again there was no other option. Next year they let him walk

Don't tell me Pats use Franchise like they're so loving of keeping the players.

Suffice to say I've followed Pats lot longer than your bandwagon Antowain Smith Avatar likely pulled after SB36

Ty Law never was a free agent. He was cut. Neither was Deion Branch. He was under contract and didn't report solely because they would not refuse to tag him. Those 2 could never have been tagged. They couldn't tag Graham because they tagged Asante that year.

You are right they didn't tag Givens and pay their #2 WR top 5 WR $.

They have tagged Tebucky Jones, Adam twice, Asante Samuel, and Matt Cassel in this decade. That is 5 times in 10 years (Vince would be #6) which I'd bet compared with teams league wide is a pretty high number.

 

[Sicilian]

Vince was much better in 04 than Brace in 09. There is no comparison b/t/w the two.

Agreed there is no comparison, but that's because Vince was a mid-round 1 picka and Brace nearly a full round later. Not saying we can rely on Brace to start or anything next year, but the fact remains Wilfork wasn't the Wilfork we knew his rookie year, and one would expect a 2nd rounder (on average) to need more time to get up to speed than a 1st rounder.

 

[Deus Irae]

I've seen it plenty - were they able to sack Manning or not?

Sack is not synonymous with pass rush.

2006 - Couldn't get off the field in the 4th quarter v. Peyton Manning

The defense had a bunch of starters on the sideline, sick or injured. Needing to play Eric Alexander because of all the starters being in the M*A*S*H unit was the problem, not the pass rush. He was targeted mercilessly by a Peyton Manning who'd been almost completely ineffective prior to the defensive players needing to be substituted for.

2007 - Couldn't stop Eli Manning in a 2 minute drill

Fluke catch, dropped INT opportunities, holding penalties not called... These things happen, the timing was just terrible.

2008 - 3rd & 15 vs the Jets in OT ultimately derails playoff hopes

Tom Brady being unavailable to the team might have played a bit of a role.

How can someone argue that this team's pass rush and pass defense has not been a main problem the past several years.

Because it was #2 in the NFL in 2007? :confused2:

As for 5th in the league in points - who cares? Both offensive and defensive stats are more telling when the opponent is taken into consideration, and when one does, our defense was 17th in the league (FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2009 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS).

Yes, both the offense and defense were higher in the points categories than their talent/play levels warranted. That brings in to question all the various complaints about the coordinators. How was a team with huge problems on both offense and defense still able to find a way to win 10 games if the coordinators were doing such a terrible job?