Franchise tag and transition tag numbers released

[Ring 6]

So if you know that you could earn "X" number of dollars, and your contract was up, but your company exercised an option clause to keep you, and told you that they were only going to pay you half of what you could get elsewhere, you wouldn't be insulted?

Thats not a realistic example.
You would have to included that my contract included a clause that the company could keep me another year at the average pay of the top 5 people in my job.
I think its also wrong to assume that anyone will pay Wilfork double the average of the top 5 players at his position. Why would they?
Why does everyone talk about the tag like its some loophole that teams screw players with? It is a part of the contract the player agreed to sign, as part of the CBA that controls the contracts.

 

[Deus Irae]

Thats not a realistic example.
You would have to included that my contract included a clause that the company could keep me another year at the average pay of the top 5 people in my job.
I think its also wrong to assume that anyone will pay Wilfork double the average of the top 5 players at his position. Why would they?
Why does everyone talk about the tag like its some loophole that teams screw players with? It is a part of the contract the player agreed to sign, as part of the CBA that controls the contracts.

Actually, it is a realistic example. I used Rob0729's own numbers:

$10-15 million

$14 million is double $7 million.


Let's not go around ignoring context.

 

[Miguel]

Thats not a realistic example.
You would have to included that my contract included a clause that the company could keep me another year at the average pay of the top 5 people in my job.
I think its also wrong to assume that anyone will pay Wilfork double the average of the top 5 players at his position. Why would they?

Are you saying that Wilfork would not take home in 2010 $14 million in cash if he were to sign a long-term deal??

If Wilfork were to sign a long-term deal, how much of a signing bonus do you think that he would get??

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, it is a realistic example. I used Rob0729's own numbers:



$14 million is double $7 million.


Let's not go around ignoring context.

Its unrealistic because whoever "you" that you are referring to would not have an option clause in their contract that equated to a franchise tag. You made up a reality that is a the least very uncommon.

I don't dispute 14 mill is double 7 mill, I dispute he would earn 'twice as much' at least not without misrepresenting that you are including a signing bonus which he will receive in whatever year is his free agent year.
If he gets 14 mill up front on a deal that average 7mill as opposed to getting 7mill this year and that deal next year, its a little disingenuous to say he's making half of what someone else would pay him.

 

[Ring 6]

Are you saying that Wilfork would not take home in 2010 $14 million in cash if he were to sign a long-term deal??

If Wilfork were to sign a long-term deal, how much of a signing bonus do you think that he would get??

I'm saying thats a narrow and misleading way to look at it.
Yes, technically he could earn twice as much, at the expense of giving up his free agency. He will ultimately earn equally as much over time if his free agency is delayed.
I dont think delaying your signing bonus a year or even 2 is the same as losing it.

 

[Deus Irae]

Its unrealistic because whoever "you" that you are referring to would not have an option clause in their contract that equated to a franchise tag. You made up a reality that is a the least very uncommon.

I don't dispute 14 mill is double 7 mill, I dispute he would earn 'twice as much' at least not without misrepresenting that you are including a signing bonus which he will receive in whatever year is his free agent year.
If he gets 14 mill up front on a deal that average 7mill as opposed to getting 7mill this year and that deal next year, its a little disingenuous to say he's making half of what someone else would pay him.

Actually, such clauses do exist, and I wasn't "making up a reality" in some bizarre manner, but was posing a hypothetical based upon actual occurrences.

As for your numbers, again, context.

You were wrong in your last post and this post just compounds the error.

 

[Ring 6]

Add in that you were underpaid for the past six years.

How was he underpaid? He got a contract consistent with his draft slot like every other player does.
Are you suggesting that the Patriots were obligated to give him a raise over and above the contract he signed because he turned out to be worthy of his draft slot? I certainly don't think he outplayed his draft slot, do you?
The highest paid players are in their second contract. I don't think you can determine over or underpaid by comparing players in rookie contracts to players in FA contracts. The system just doesnt treat them equallly

 

[dhamz]

The "imagine this was you" stuff never works because pro sports aren't the real world the rest of us live in. No one's boss is going to give them a raise of over 300% which is what Wilfork would get under the tag (2.2 to 7). No one who got offerred that would be insulted because they think they can/should get 800%. That is not the world normal everyday people live in.

The Pats are not doing anything wrong if they tag Wilfork despite what the Felger's of the world would tell you. Those are the rules that the players themselves agreed to - and they agreed to this in multiple CBAs.

Wilfork being upset at the tag is understandable because if he gets hurt in 2010, that tag could cost him big because he'd clearly get a lot more than 7m guarenteed on the open market this offseason.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, such clauses do exist, and I wasn't "making up a reality" in some bizarre manner, but was posing a hypothetical based upon actual occurrences.

As for your numbers, again, context.

You were wrong in your last post and this post just compounds the error.

In what line of work do you know of people who sign a contract that has an 'option year' that causes them to be paid half of what they would get on the open market, that are collectively bargained, and that set that option year at the average of the top 5 people in their profession?

 

[Deus Irae]

In what line of work do you know of people who sign a contract that has an 'option year' that causes them to be paid half of what they would get on the open market, that are collectively bargained, and that set that option year at the average of the top 5 people in their profession?

Why, yes, Andy, if you take enough specifics and put it into any "Not the same" argument, you'll eventually separate the example. Perhaps you could add "to play a major American sport" to your attempt to marginalize the example....

However, given the basic parameters of the hypothetical, you should feel free to stop making irrelevant and erroneous complaints. There are contracts which contain option clauses. Job salaries do sometimes rise and make old contracts outdated value wise, and "the average of the top 5" is completely irrelevant to the example given.

 

[Miguel]

I'm saying thats a narrow and misleading way to look at it.
Yes, technically he could earn twice as much, at the expense of giving up his free agency. He will ultimately earn equally as much over time if his free agency is delayed.
I dont think delaying your signing bonus a year or even 2 is the same as losing it.

Deus posted "they were only going to pay you half of what you could get elsewhere".
If the Pats franchise Vince and he plays under the tag, he will take home $7 million in cash. Deus and I happen to think that Wilfork could make double that amount in 2010 if he were to sign a long-term deal.

 

[Ring 6]

The "imagine this was you" stuff never works because pro sports aren't the real world the rest of us live in. No one's boss is going to give them a raise of over 300% which is what Wilfork would get under the tag (2.2 to 7). No one who got offerred that would be insulted because they think they can/should get 800%. That is not the world normal everyday people live in.

The Pats are not doing anything wrong if they tag Wilfork despite what the Felger's of the world would tell you. Those are the rules that the players themselves agreed to - and they agreed to this in multiple CBAs.

Wilfork being upset at the tag is understandable because if he gets hurt in 2010, that tag could cost him big because he'd clearly get a lot more than 7m guarenteed on the open market this offseason.

And if he is signed with a 15 mill bonus then has an accident that keeps him from playing again, the Patriots paid 15 mill for nothing. It works both ways. I don't know why fans feel its poor treatment to follow the cba rules and have the players assume the risk for injury under the cap, yet expct the team to take the risk of injury by not exercising its rights.

It is a business and the player and team need to act in their own best interest.
To put feelings, respect, or treatment into the equation just confuses it. Neither side can make decisions based on emotion. IT is a business.

 

[Miguel]

Yes, technically he could earn twice as much, at the expense of giving up his free agency.

Please explain.

He will ultimately earn equally as much over time if his free agency is delayed.

Ignoring the time value of money. A dollar in 2012 is not the same as a dollar in 2010.

I dont think delaying your signing bonus a year or even 2 is the same as losing it.

Is anyone even arguing that??

 

[Ring 6]

Why, yes, Andy, if you take enough specifics and put it into any "Not the same" argument, you'll eventually separate the example. Perhaps you could add "to play a major American sport" to your attempt to marginalize the example....

However, given the basic parameters of the hypothetical, you should feel free to stop making irrelevant and erroneous complaints. There are contracts which contain option clauses. Job salaries do sometimes rise and make old contracts outdated value wise, and "the average of the top 5" is completely irrelevant to the example given.

And you know that it is totally unrealistic that anyone in America has a contract paying them 2.2mill that 'forces' them to take a raise to 7mill (use whatever #s you want that are the same proportion) keeping them from going to another company that will pay them 7 mil a year but give them 14 mill of it up front.
You cannot compare ANY other job and any contract to the NFL CBA and Franchise tag, without being unrealistic.
You have now reduced yourself to saying your example was realistic because you can't expect your comparison to match up to the definition of what you are comparing it to. Please.

 

[Miguel]

How was he underpaid?

Compared to other defensive tackles. Compared to other defensive players on the Patriots. Compared to Jarvis Green.

He got a contract consistent with his draft slot like every other player does.
Are you suggesting that the Patriots were obligated to give him a raise over and above the contract he signed because he turned out to be worthy of his
draft slot?

No.

I certainly don't think he outplayed his draft slot, do you?

Yes, I do. Wilfork is one of the best players from the 2004 draft.

 

[Ring 6]

Deus posted "they were only going to pay you half of what you could get elsewhere".
If the Pats franchise Vince and he plays under the tag, he will take home $7 million in cash. Deus and I happen to think that Wilfork could make double that amount in 2010 if he were to sign a long-term deal.

But isnt that apples to oranges?
If he plays under the tag he will get that signing bonus in an other season.
If he signs a new contract, he wont get that signing bonus later.

Technically, I suppose he could get twice as much this year, but only at the expense of making much less than half as much in 2011, or 2012 or whenever his FA year is pushed off to.
There is a cost in the future of making twice as much this year that must be factored into that discussion, isnt there?

 

[Deus Irae]

And you know that it is totally unrealistic that anyone in America has a contract paying them 2.2mill that 'forces' them to take a raise to 7mill (use whatever #s you want that are the same proportion) keeping them from going to another company that will pay them 7 mil a year but give them 14 mill of it up front.
You cannot compare ANY other job and any contract to the NFL CBA and Franchise tag, without being unrealistic.
You have now reduced yourself to saying your example was realistic because you can't expect your comparison to match up to the definition of what you are comparing it to. Please.

My post was IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VERY NUMBERS BEING PUT FORTH BY ROB, who was the person I was responding to before you jumped in to tell me that my numbers were wrong even though I was using his numbers to respond to his post.

Whether you agree with Rob's numbers is irrelevant. In the context of his post, my example is fine. Your comment about "You cannot compare ANY other job..." makes my point about you trying to marginalize the example.

I've not reduced myself to anything. You're making an ridiculous claim and I've been trying to be polite about it. That's past, now, though. Feel free to stop commenting in response to me, since you can't be bothered to try grasping the simple notion of my using someone's own data in a discussion with them.

 

[Ring 6]

Compared to other defensive tackles. Compared to other defensive players on the Patriots. Compared to Jarvis Green.


No.



Yes, I do. Wilfork is one of the best players from the 2004 draft.

He has been well paid compared to DTs in their rookie contract, other Patriot players, and Jarvis Green in their rookie contracts.
Its just the nature of the league that this happens. By that standard up to half the league is underpaid.

He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?)
I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in

 

[Ring 6]

My post was IN THE CONTEXT OF THE VERY NUMBERS BEING PUT FORTH BY ROB, who was the person I was responding to before you jumped in to tell me that my numbers were wrong even though I was using his numbers to respond to his post.

Whether you agree with Rob's numbers is irrelevant. In the context of his post, my example is fine. Your comment about "You cannot compare ANY other job..." makes my point about you trying to marginalize the example.

I've not reduced myself to anything. You're making an ridiculous claim and I've been trying to be polite about it. That's past, now, though. Feel free to stop commenting in response to me, since you can't be bothered to try grasping the simple notion of my using someone's own data in a discussion with them.

Wow, you really get pissy when you are wrong, huh?

What I said was your example asking whoever you were asking if they would feel insulted if their company exercised a clause that they had to stay at their job making half of what another company would pay was an unrealistic example because it doesn't happen. I would venture to say that no one who has ever posted on this board has been in that position.
Therefore you asking someone how they would feel about being in a position they could never possibly be in is unrealistic.
I am essentially defining unrealistic for you now. Perhap a stop at dictionary.com might be helpful.

Save your 'politeness' no one here confuses it as genuine.

 

[Deus Irae]

He has been well paid compared to DTs in their rookie contract, other Patriot players, and Jarvis Green in their rookie contracts.
Its just the nature of the league that this happens. By that standard up to half the league is underpaid.

He was one of the highest drafted players in the 2004 draft. (21?)
I don't think he is far above the 21st best player from that draft, given the one-dimensional nature of his play, and the number of snaps he particiaptes in

2004 - Round 1
Sel # Player Position School Team
1 Eli Manning QB Mississippi San Diego Chargers
2 Robert Gallery T Iowa Oakland Raiders
3 Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh Arizona Cardinals
4 Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State New York Giants
5 Sean Taylor FS Miami (Fla.) Washington Redskins
6 Kellen Winslow TE Miami (Fla.) Cleveland Browns
7 Roy Williams WR Texas Detroit Lions
8 DeAngelo Hall CB Virginia Tech Atlanta Falcons
9 Reggie Williams WR Washington Jacksonville Jaguars
10 Dunta Robinson CB South Carolina Houston Texans
11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio) Pittsburgh Steelers
12 Jonathan Vilma MLB Miami (Fla.) New York Jets
13 Lee Evans WR Wisconsin Buffalo Bills
14 Tommie Harris DT Oklahoma Chicago Bears
15 Michael Clayton WR Louisiana State Tampa Bay Buccaneers
16 Shawn Andrews T Arkansas Philadelphia Eagles
17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.) Denver Broncos
18 Will Smith DE Ohio State New Orleans Saints
19 Vernon Carey T Miami (Fla.) Miami Dolphins
20 Kenechi Udeze DE USC Minnesota Vikings
21 Vince Wilfork NT Miami (Fla.) New England Patriots
22 J.P. Losman QB Tulane Buffalo Bills
23 Marcus Tubbs DT Texas Seattle Seahawks
24 Steven Jackson RB Oregon State St. Louis Rams
25 Ahmad Carroll CB Arkansas Green Bay Packers
26 Chris Perry RB Michigan Cincinnati Bengals
27 Jason Babin OLB Western Michigan Houston Texans
28 Chris Gamble CB Ohio State Carolina Panthers
29 Michael Jenkins WR Ohio State Atlanta Falcons
30 Kevin Jones RB Virginia Tech Detroit Lions
31 Rashaun Woods WR Oklahoma State San Francisco 49ers
32 Benjamin Watson TE Georgia New England Patriots

Go ahead and rank them. If you have him any lower than #6, you're certifiably insane. Then feel free to look at the rest of the draft. You'll find that even with a liberal ranking system, you won't be able to get him out of the top 10 unless you need to receive psychiatric help.