Franchise Tags- Offensive Line

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm not sure where you're getting that decertification would avoid a lockout. Decert is the union's bargaining chip, a lockout is the owners' (since the owners get their TV revenue whether or not a season happens). I don't see a reason why the league couldn't operate in the interim without a CBA, but I think decert is only aimed at one thing, filing an antitrust lawsuit. Otherwise they could play without a CBA but with the union remaining a union. There would be no incentive to decertify.

We've been all through this multiple times in many threads.

Here is a brief summation of the strategy:

NFLPA decertification vote could ensure NFL football in 2011 | ProFootballTalk

 

[RobertWeathers]

The Oakland pick is perfect for a tackle. #12 to #18 Sea-bass and this pick will be bookends for years.

Possible but Light and SeaBass were 2nd round selections. Mankins was a 1st. All 3 great pics.

This is the most plausible scenario going forward. I would love to see Neal back for one more season but the general consensus of most posters here is he will most likely retire. That's a pity but I basically agree it is likely. He's been a great guard. Mankins is a man-beast and I would love to see figuring out how to keep him here. Again, doesn't seem the most likely scenario. Maybe BB finds a decent guard at #33 or #64? I really have my heart set on defense for thee draft but a good O-line wins games and SB's!

I'm sure BB knows what he is doing though...... In BB I trust!

More often than not, BB has grabbed the right OL at the right time. Hes missed on other players, but not on OLs in the 1st or 2nd rounds.

 

[SanAngeloState]

I am still baffled how anyone can think that they know what Mankins was offered. There were "reports," but even those reports never included the details of the contract, and with NFL contracts, everything is in the details. In particular, we do not know when the alleged contract was supposed to start, this year or next year. That is a really big detail.

I apologize for quoting Ron Borges, but on Sports Tonight he said that the Patriots were extremely vague about the details of the contract offer to Mankins.

I do not remember Mankins ever saying that the offer was insulting. Can you provide a reference?

Well he threw a hissy fit, said he's been lied to etc. Then he held out. Is that a good enough reference?

 

[Pujo]

We've been all through this multiple times in many threads.

Here is a brief summation of the strategy:

NFLPA decertification vote could ensure NFL football in 2011 | ProFootballTalk

Hmm, he doesn't really explain how decertification helps avoid a lockout (he just says that it does). You and him might be right, I just don't get the connection between decert and avoiding a lockout, while I do see the connection between decert and antitrust action.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Hmm, he doesn't really explain how decertification helps avoid a lockout (he just says that it does). You and him might be right, I just don't get the connection between decert and avoiding a lockout, while I do see the connection between decert and antitrust action.

The owners can't lockout the players until the collective bargaining agreement expires. If the players union decertifies before that the players are no longer union members and if they got locked out they could sue the league under anti trust which is probably the one thing owners can't allow to happen. As was the case back in 1989 therefore the league would continue to operate under it's own rules and the players would be considered members of a trade association and not a union. They could sue for specific rights or again claim anti trust violation, but it takes time for those things to run their course through courts and appeals. After 4 years last time a new union was formed and it and ownership agreed to a new CBA that incorporated through collective bargaining some of the rules a court was about to impose regarding FA while likely avoiding some others either side didn't want to risk. Based on that outcome however it also would allow the owners to consider a case that the decertification this time was a sham designed to force the issue...

But in the meantime the games would go on pending appeals....

NFL.com news: NFLPA seeking signatures for possible decertification

 

[Pujo]

Would an anti-trust suit by locked out players be worse than an anti-trust suit by the players in the absence of a lockout (assuming, in both cases, that the union decertified)? Can you expand on that part of it?

 

[cstjohn17]

They will tag Mankins if they have to, either to buy time or if he remains dug in to effect a tag and trade.

This will be an interesting area to watch, it could play out in any number of ways.

Although Light may not command top money they may make a decision to let him go a year early rather than having him playing a contract where he is below par for the final year or two.

If either Mankins or Light walk it will be another classic case of their ability to make hard decisions (Milloy, Bledsoe, Law, Branch, Samuel, Seymour, etc.).

I try to be objective and not just guzzle the Kool-aid but facts are facts, the Patriots are usually right. In BB we trust, here are his comments about Mankins.

Logan Mankins & the fine line - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

"Belichick was asked about Mankins' impact on the team since his return to action Nov. 7, and he began gushing.

"He's been outstanding, on and off the field," Belichick said. "He brings a great attitude and work ethic, superior toughness to the field and to the football team and that unit. Just an outstanding performer, a smart guy who doesn't make any mistakes, plays hard, run/pass, every down, from the snap to the whistle, from the first play to the last play. Very consistent player. Always has been. He's shown that this year; it doesn't matter whether it's a Friday practice or the fourth quarter or the first play of the game, he's very, very consistent. And good. Very good."



IMO I think the come to an agreement with Mankins, they may have to franchise him first and let Light walk. Vollmer moves to left tackle and they draft a right tackle. If they re-signed Light I would be ok with that too.

High class problems to have to be sure.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Possible but Light and SeaBass were 2nd round selections. Mankins was a 1st. All 3 great pics.




More often than not, BB has grabbed the right OL at the right time. Hes missed on other players, but not on OLs in the 1st or 2nd rounds.

He also is very good at judging what he has on the roster and PS. He knew last April that the Mankins situation was headed toward uglyville yet he did not draft an OG or OT early.

He had more faith in Connelly than 95% of us.

Two excellent draft choices that project well in our system are OG Boiling of Georgia and OT Ziemba of Auburn, if we should lose Light and Mankins.

 

[Sciz]

I don't think it'd take the Transition tag to keep Light. I'm sure he'd take something along the lines of $9M/2yrs with a decent signing bonus. I'm all for using the franchise tag on Mankins.

 

[plk]

Well he threw a hissy fit, said he's been lied to etc. Then he held out. Is that a good enough reference?

No, not at all. Mankins said that he had been lied to. You claimed that he said that the offer was insulting. I don't remember his saying that. They are very different things.

How can you possibly claim that what you said is the same as his saying that the offer was insulting?

 

[TruthSeeker]

No, not at all. Mankins said that he had been lied to. You claimed that he said that the offer was insulting. I don't remember his saying that. They are very different things.

How can you possibly claim that what you said is the same as his saying that the offer was insulting?

There was a lot of discussion about Mankins feeling insulted. Here's one report about the qualifying offer being insulting.

 

[RayClay]

Can you explain this please. This year Light has had a good year and he is solid enough that every team is moving its best rusher over Vollmer so i am confused.We line up crumpler on his side for help.

Matt Light is supposed to be a bargain left tackle. He is not an elite left tackle. He has been paid what he's worth. Vollmer is a bigger and more agile left tackle as evidenced when he played their, despite being very inexperienced.

Has Vollmer been a better right tackle than Light? Apparently Light is incapable of playing right tackle, so we'll never know. Light has had a better than average year for him, but he was still beaten like a rented mule in some early games that people now forget. I have never seen Vollmer completely beaten so he's flopping on the ground like a fish. I'm not sure if it's the immortal Antwoin Barnes of SD, but many speed rushers feast on Light on a regular basis.

Light is an average tackle with no position flexibility that plays well sometimes, is a great run blocker and gets beat consistently by certain types of pass rushers.

Comparing Vollmer's play at right tackle, since Light is incapable of even playing right tackle, makes no sense. Vollmer is bigger and quicker.

 

[mgteich]

Trusting Belichick is fine. Expecting to find a starting LT this year with the Oakland pick is another matter entirely. I'm sure Brady would rather have Light than any rookie available.

The Oakland pick is perfect for a tackle. #12 to #18 Sea-bass and this pick will be bookends for years. This is the most plausible scenario going forward. I would love to see Neal back for one more season but the general consensus of most posters here is he will most likely retire. That's a pity but I basically agree it is likely. He's been a great guard. Mankins is a man-beast and I would love to see figuring out how to keep him here. Again, doesn't seem the most likely scenario. Maybe BB finds a decent guard at #33 or #64? I really have my heart set on defense for thee draft but a good O-line wins games and SB's!

I'm sure BB knows what he is doing though...... In BB I trust!

 

[RobertWeathers]

Light is an average tackle with no position flexibility that plays well sometimes, is a great run blocker and gets beat consistently by certain types of pass rushers.

Matt Light has never been a great run blocker. Adequate at best. The problem with the speedy edge rushers I agree with, but has been above average in this area throughout his career.

 

[mgteich]

So, the CBA ends on or about March 1st with the union having de-certified a week before. And you think that games will go on pending appeals??????? First, the suits and injunctions will be in place. After all, Congress will not allow the nfl owners to collude.

The owners can't lockout the players until the collective bargaining agreement expires. If the players union decertifies before that the players are no longer union members and if they got locked out they could sue the league under anti trust which is probably the one thing owners can't allow to happen. As was the case back in 1989 therefore the league would continue to operate under it's own rules and the players would be considered members of a trade association and not a union. They could sue for specific rights or again claim anti trust violation, but it takes time for those things to run their course through courts and appeals. After 4 years last time a new union was formed and it and ownership agreed to a new CBA that incorporated through collective bargaining some of the rules a court was about to impose regarding FA while likely avoiding some others either side didn't want to risk. Based on that outcome however it also would allow the owners to consider a case that the decertification this time was a sham designed to force the issue...

But in the meantime the games would go on pending appeals....

NFL.com news: NFLPA seeking signatures for possible decertification

 

[RayClay]

Matt Light has never been a great run blocker. Adequate at best. The problem with the speedy edge rushers I agree with, but has been above average in this area throughout his career.

Well, I think he has been better than your average left tackle at getting upfield etc. I'm no Oline expert by any means. i always thought he would make a great guard if we found a more consistent LT.

Light was a bargain when we had a more run and short pass oriented offense in 2001. Brady needs more time now and usually gets it, but the occasional total wiff scares me.

No comment on Vollmers ability at RT, but he is simply a prototype left tackle with his wingspan and nimble feet.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Well, I think he has been better than your average left tackle at getting upfield etc. I'm no Oline expert by any means. i always thought he would make a great guard if we found a more consistent LT.

Matt Light's greatest strength is his footwork and hands but he is getting a bit older. Hes another one of those guys that does a ton of studying and filmwork.

Not sure about converting ML to G. I think BB looks for G that have shorter arms and more push power.

Light was a bargain when we had a more run and short pass oriented offense in 2001. Brady needs more time now and usually gets it, but the occasional total wiff scares me.

Yep. Overall I think Light has been pretty solid this year. Its the Freenys and Mathis types that scare me.....

No comment on Vollmers ability at RT, but he is simply a prototype left tackle with his wingspan and nimble feet.

I don't think Vollmer is getting his due. He has had an outstanding season both in pass protection and in providing running lanes at RT. He did well in limited action at LT last year so we'll see what BB has in mind for 2011.

 

[SanAngeloState]

No, not at all. Mankins said that he had been lied to. You claimed that he said that the offer was insulting. I don't remember his saying that. They are very different things.

How can you possibly claim that what you said is the same as his saying that the offer was insulting?

You're quibbling over words. It's assinine.

Others dont' see it your way.

"The Patriots made Logan Mankins a market-value contract offer earlier this off-season. The offer would have made him the third highest paid offensive guard in the NFL. The Mankins’ camp clearly believes that anything short of the seven-year, $56.7 million contract that Jahri Evans got from the Saints is insulting. " [ edit this quote was from a news article]

So...they offered a contract which he didn't think was good enough, thus they lied. He thinks the offer was "insulting" is implied but it's the same thing.

How can I possibly claim? How can you post stupidity?

 

[satz]

I don't think Vollmer is getting his due. He has had an outstanding season both in pass protection and in providing running lanes at RT. He did well in limited action at LT last year so we'll see what BB has in mind for 2011.

My only problem with Vollmer is after he returned from his concussion his play has dipped for some reason. He looked like a star LT before the concussion.
Now this year Crumpler always lines next to him or they keep gronk next to him.Last year we saw teams go after him and get some success. This year crumpler and gronk help him a lot.

Light looks bad 1 or 2 plays a game and in most is all alone as the protection is sliding right to help vollmer.light is a very good LT. i can actually see him going to the Colts as man after tarik they have struggled alot with that position.

So IF vollmer goes back to his pre concussion self i will be thrilled for now or if kazur can hold the RT then we can slide the protection left to help him like this year.His footwork has struggled alot this year and crumpler has to held down to help him.

 

[plk]

There was a lot of discussion about Mankins feeling insulted. Here's one report about the qualifying offer being insulting.

SanAngeloState is not talking about Mankins feeling insulted by the qualifying offer. He is claiming that Mankins described the alleged $8 million offer as insulting.

Mankins has said very, very little. It should be possible to determine if he ever described that offer as insulting. Assuming that he rejected the offer because he found it insulting is an unwarranted assumption. My best guess all along has been that he held out because the new contract would not start until 2011.