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Franchise tag and transition tag numbers released


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But there is value to the team in not taking on the injury risk too.
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying Wilfork should be unhappy at the CBA or the Patriots? Are you saying the Patriots should sign him to a long term deal? And is that because he is unhappy being tagged?

I am saying that because of the injury risk factor and because $14 million in 2010 is better than $14 million in 2011 I understand why Wilfork would be unhappy if he is tagged and plays under the franchise tag figure.
 
I'd have to look it over, which I dont have time to do right now.
I was simply assuming that the play we have gotten from Wilfork is pretty consistent with what I'd expect at 21.

There is a quote about what happens when people assume that may apply here:)

IMO, Vince Wilfork has been the best player drafted at 21 since Randy Moss was drafted in that slot in 1998.

1999-L.J. Shelton
2000 - Sylvester Morris
2001 - Nate Clements
2002 - Dan Graham
2003 -Jeff Faine
2005- Matt Jones
2006 - Laurence Maroney
2007- Reggie Nelson
2008 - Sam Baker
2009 - Alex Mack
 
There seems to a lot of concern over whether is it reasonable or not for Wilfork to feel unhappy.

I would submit that what he does and is likely to do is much more important.

Similarly, I don't think that public statements by the patriots or even private ones are very important. Again what it is more important to me is what actions the patriots ae likely to take.
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There are many decision points in any franchise situation.

Within a month we will know whether a long-term contract has been reached or whether Wilfork will be franchised.

The next steps will be up to the patriots. Certainly it is unthinkable for Wilfork to sign before the draft without some action by the patriots other than the tag offer itself.
 
7 million would probably be less then what he would get on the open market. Let's do it!

No, it wouldn't. There's more teams running the 3-4 than I can remember, just off the top of my head: Pats, Jets, Miami, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Cleveland, Denver, Kansas City, San Diego, Dallas, Green Bay, San Francisco and Arizona (not 100% sure on all of these but you get the picture). True 3-4 NT's are extremely rare, only a handful of good ones in the league and Wilfork's one of the best.

He's going to be PISSED if he gets franchised. Yes there's nothing he can do about it, but he's got plenty of quality years ahead of him, and who wants the distractions? He won't show for training camp either. An extension would be a good move, or at least starting talks soon.

My .02
 
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I am saying that because of the injury risk factor and because $14 million in 2010 is better than $14 million in 2011 I understand why Wilfork would be unhappy if he is tagged and plays under the franchise tag figure.

I would agree.
 
There is a quote about what happens when people assume that may apply here:)

IMO, Vince Wilfork has been the best player drafted at 21 since Randy Moss was drafted in that slot in 1998.

1999-L.J. Shelton
2000 - Sylvester Morris
2001 - Nate Clements
2002 - Dan Graham
2003 -Jeff Faine
2005- Matt Jones
2006 - Laurence Maroney
2007- Reggie Nelson
2008 - Sam Baker
2009 - Alex Mack

I made the comment based upon how Wilfork has played. I dont think I implied it was more than an impression or assumption.
I'm just saying that picking at 21 I dont think what we've gotten is substantially more than I would expect if the pick were a good one.

As far as the list, Sam Baker is a starting LT but is 4 years behind so we will see.
Nate Clements has had a good career. I think you are selling him short.
Jeff Faine has been a starting C for 7 years. He is in the argument against Wilfork. Depends on whether you consider Wilfork a dominant run stopping force or a 2 down player. I have not seen him as dominant, and I do think his inability to contribute on 3rd down severely reduces his value.
I will at some point look at the 2004 draft and give a list of players I consider better or in the neighborhood. The list may not reach 20 but it also wont be as low as 6 or 7 either.
 
I never said that it was wrong for the Pats to follow the rules. Please do not twist my words.

It was a question. A question isnt twisting your words, its asking your opinion.
 
A few things:

1.) Of course Wilforl would make more money this year, possibly double the franchise tender amount or more if he signed a long term deal. That doesn't make the franchise tender money an insult. It is good money just not as good of money of a long term deal would provide.

2.) If history follows suit, Wilfork will benefit financially long term if he is franchised this year and able to get a long term deal next year barring injury. Look at Asante Samuel. He played for one year here under the franchise tender which was I think $7-8 million. The next year he got as good or better deal with the Eagles than he would have gotten the year he was franchised. Odds are that he wouldn't have gotten that $7-8 million that he got during the franchise year on the back end of his contract if he got a new deal right away is neglible. You go back and look at other franchised players like Nate Clements, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, and so on and the trend shows those players made far more money than they would have if they reach free agency right away. There are exceptions, but most make more.

If Wilfork is franchised and is forced to play out this season for $7 million, the risk is that he gets injured and loses out in a new deal next year and the reward is that if he has another great year he will end up making more money in his career. There are upsides of being franchised.

3.) As for Wilfork being underpaid, that is relative. Was he underpaid based on his value? Yes. Was he underpaid based on the contract he was given and his value at the time he signed it? Absolutely not. Many players quickly outplay their contract, especially rookies. Very few get to get the value increased more than a year before their contract runs out. I guess the Pats could follow the Eagles' model and renegotiate with young players two years into their rookie deals, but we have seen that open a whole other can of worms where these players get above market value deals and continue to improve and then want to renegotiate again after a year or two. The Cards got in trouble this way with Boldin too.

4.) I'd like to see the Pats lock Wilfork up for at least 3-4 years (longer could be a risk based on his age, position, and size). I think he deserves a contract that is among the top DTs in the league (although not as much as Haynesworth because that was a ridiculously stupid contract at $12 million a year for four years). But we do not know what the Pats are willing to offer nor what Wilfork is asking for. If Wilfork's demands are in the Haynesworth level, I say that the Pats stick with the franchise tag and gamble on the future.

If Wilfork is going to get $12-15 million a year and Brady possibly getting upwards to $20 million a year (if Eli Manning can get $16 million a year and Peyton could drive that number up too if he gets a deal first, that is the number we could be looking at for Brady), I don't know how this team will field a winner especially if the owners get even half of what they ask for and there is a cap consolidation. Based on the numbers I saw that if the owners get back 18% of the revenue from the players, the cap could shrink to under $110 million where Brady and Wilfork could account on any given year upwards to 32% of the cap.

From my standpoint, this is not an open and shut case of paying Wilfork whatever he wants. There are far too many variables that could kill this team. This is why the Pats have been so cautious about making long term deals and why they are not even going to think about negotiating with Wilfork until a week or two. A new CBA could cause what we saw in the mid-90s where dynasties like the Cowboys and 49ers got gutted because of the cap (even with the 49ers cheating the cap).
 
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Clearly, this is not what I said. Clearly, I was talking about within the context of the hypothetical. Clearly, you had to know that which means that

clearly, you're deliberately misrepresenting my post.

Now that I've answered all your posts prior to my "final word" post (since this one came up as I was writing that), I'm done discussing this subject with you.

Did you notice the question mark?
A question mark indicates that the sentence is a question.

Clearly, it cannot be what you said.
I cannot misrepresent what you said by asking if the statement I made is what you mean. By asking the question I am saying that I do not know if that is what you mean.

Duh.

It is an accurate depiction of what it appears you believe based upon the argument you are making. But, CLEARLY, you didnt say that, which is why I ASKED if that is what you believed.
 
I am saying that because of the injury risk factor and because $14 million in 2010 is better than $14 million in 2011 I understand why Wilfork would be unhappy if he is tagged and plays under the franchise tag figure.


But the other side of the coin is that if he is franchised and he isn't injured, he gets $7 million this year and then $14 million next year and is far richer long term. If Wilfork got $14 million this year, he would have signed a 4-6 year deal. At age 32-34 when he became a free agent again, do you really think he would recoup that $7 million from this year? There is a risk to playing out a franchise year, but there is also a reward to it.
 
A few things:

1.) Of course Wilforl would make more money this year, possibly double the franchise tender amount or more if he signed a long term deal. That doesn't make the franchise tender money an insult. It is good money just not as good of money of a long term deal would provide.

2.) If history follows suit, Wilfork will benefit financially long term if he is franchised this year and able to get a long term deal next year barring injury. Look at Asante Samuel. He played for one year here under the franchise tender which was I think $7-8 million. The next year he got as good or better deal with the Eagles than he would have gotten the year he was franchised. Odds are that he wouldn't have gotten that $7-8 million that he got during the franchise year on the back end of his contract if he got a new deal right away is neglible. You go back and look at other franchised players like Nate Clements, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones, and so on and the trend shows those players made far more money than they would have if they reach free agency right away. There are exceptions, but most make more.

If Wilfork is franchised and is forced to play out this season for $7 million, the risk is that he gets injured and loses out in a new deal next year and the reward is that if he has another great year he will end up making more money in his career. There are upsides of being franchised.

3.) As for Wilfork being underpaid, that is relative. Was he underpaid based on his value? Yes. Was he underpaid based on the contract he was given and his value at the time he signed it? Absolutely not. Many players quickly outplay their contract, especially rookies. Very few get to get the value increased more than a year before their contract runs out. I guess the Pats could follow the Eagles' model and renegotiate with young players two years into their rookie deals, but we have seen that open a whole other can of worms where these players get above market value deals and continue to improve and then want to renegotiate again after a year or two. The Cards got in trouble this way with Boldin too.

4.) I'd like to see the Pats lock Wilfork up for at least 3-4 years (longer could be a risk based on his age, position, and size). I think he deserves a contract that is among the top DTs in the league (although not as much as Haynesworth because that was a ridiculously stupid contract at $12 million a year for four years). But we do not know what the Pats are willing to offer nor what Wilfork is asking for. If Wilfork's demands are in the Haynesworth level, I say that the Pats stick with the franchise tag and gamble on the future.

If Wilfork is going to get $12-15 million a year and Brady possibly getting upwards to $20 million a year (if Eli Manning can get $16 million a year and Peyton could drive that number up too if he gets a deal first, that is the number we could be looking at for Brady), I don't know how this team will field a winner especially if the owners get even half of what they ask for and there is a cap consolidation. Based on the numbers I saw that if the owners get back 18% of the revenue from the players, the cap could shrink to under $110 million where Brady and Wilfork could account on any given year upwards to 32% of the cap.

From my standpoint, this is not an open and shut case of paying Wilfork whatever he wants. There are far too many variables that could kill this team. This is why the Pats have been so cautious about making long term deals and why they are not even going to think about negotiating with Wilfork until a week or two. A new CBA could cause what we saw in the mid-90s where dynasties like the Cowboys and 49ers got gutted because of the cap (even with the 49ers cheating the cap).

I think it is a very reasonable assumption that if there is going to be a cap in the future even if this year is uncapped that the Patriots will not be one of the teams that spends like crazy when there isnt a cap then finds out they are screwed when the cap comes back.

I think I'd like to see Wilfork tagged, and not signed to a long term deal. I am not at all convinced that a) he is worth top DT $$ for many reasons, which include our system, his conditioning and longterm health expectations, and his inability to contribute on 3rd down or b) even if he were worth top DT $$ that it would be a wise position for us to spend that money on.
I think the difference between a lunchbucket 2 gap player at NT who lacks any other skill than playing good 2 gap run discipline and Wilfork is not the best place to use an extra 3-4 mill a year. I'd rather use it on a 3 down player who can impact more than 2 gaps of run D.
 
But the other side of the coin is that if he is franchised and he isn't injured, he gets $7 million this year and then $14 million next year and is far richer long term. If Wilfork got $14 million this year, he would have signed a 4-6 year deal. At age 32-34 when he became a free agent again, do you really think he would recoup that $7 million from this year? There is a risk to playing out a franchise year, but there is also a reward to it.

That is why I say 'he has to play for half of what he could make' is technically correct, but a huge misrepresentation of the whole story.
 
That is why I say 'he has to play for half of what he could make' is technically correct, but a huge misrepresentation of the whole story.


That's why I never got why Asante Samuel is so bitter towards the Pats, the Pats franchising him was the best thing that could have happened to him financially. He will now make more money in his career than he would have if the Pats gave him what the Eagles gave him rather than franchising him. Samuel is going to be 33 when he is done with the Eagles' deal. If he got the deal with the Patriots and finished the deal at 32, it is doubtful he would recoup that money on the backend because very few 32 year old CBs cash in on a big deal.
 
You do realize that it is the average of the top 5 DT salaries in 2009. You do realize that only Tommy Harris made more as a DT in 2009.

Somebody help me understand how someone can be making the average of the top five but only one of them made more?

It isn't great money, but based on the position it is pretty good for an one year salary. If he was a DE, it would be great money, but DTs just don't make what DEs make. It is one of the lowest paid positions on the defense.

Isn't the opposite true: If he was a DE, then the 7M would NOT be great money?
 
I think it is a very reasonable assumption that if there is going to be a cap in the future even if this year is uncapped that the Patriots will not be one of the teams that spends like crazy when there isnt a cap then finds out they are screwed when the cap comes back.

I think I'd like to see Wilfork tagged, and not signed to a long term deal. I am not at all convinced that a) he is worth top DT $$ for many reasons, which include our system, his conditioning and longterm health expectations, and his inability to contribute on 3rd down or b) even if he were worth top DT $$ that it would be a wise position for us to spend that money on.
I think the difference between a lunchbucket 2 gap player at NT who lacks any other skill than playing good 2 gap run discipline and Wilfork is not the best place to use an extra 3-4 mill a year. I'd rather use it on a 3 down player who can impact more than 2 gaps of run D.

I think the Pats will be one of the more active players in free agency this year, but I don't think anyone other than maybe Daniel Snyder are going to go crazy with spending. I expect far more teams to take advantage of no salary cap floor than no salary cap ceiling. Several of the teams that might spend like crazy will be hampered by the final 8 or final 4 rules (Cowboys and Jets) and most of the other teams are experiencing tough financial times. Teams know that the cap could stall its growth or even contract in a new CBA or even worse there could be a work stoppage, any GM with half a brain isn't going to spend like a drunken sailor and then pay for it in ayear or two when they have to gut the team or worse that there is no football and they paid a player in his very late 20s a seven figure signing bonus to sit at home for a year in 2011.

I would prefer a three year deal for Wilfork, but I think I would like to see him signed long term. If he is looking for Haynesworth type money, let he get franchised and roll the dice for subsequent years.
 
Isn't the opposite true: If he was a DE, then the 7M would NOT be great money?

I meant that if he was a DE and he got that tender which is $12 million or so, it would be great money. Sorry for the confusion.
 
But the other side of the coin is that if he is franchised and he isn't injured, he gets $7 million this year and then $14 million next year and is far richer long term. If Wilfork got $14 million this year, he would have signed a 4-6 year deal. At age 32-34 when he became a free agent again, do you really think he would recoup that $7 million from this year? There is a risk to playing out a franchise year, but there is also a reward to it.

There is no reward to the franchise tag for any player who'd make more money without it. The franchise tag was specifically put into the CBA to allow teams to hold onto their own top players at a monetary rate that would be less than the player might make on the open market. It's a deliberate salary drag that was codified in the CBA. That, along with the fact that it's just one year, is why players don't generally like getting slapped with the tag.
 
It's time to get rid of the franchise tag. It's a bad idea that gets worse every year. You get to hold onto a player who doesn't want to stay, or feels dissed, or just doesn't want to play with no security. In the real world this would be insanity.

Simply give teams exemptions to the cap for a certain number of their own players. If another team wants to spend even more, let them.

It seems simple to me. What positive does the franchise tag effect. It's only positive if it facilitates a trade.
 
There is no reward to the franchise tag for any player who'd make more money without it. The franchise tag was specifically put into the CBA to allow teams to hold onto their own top players at a monetary rate that would be less than the player might make on the open market. It's a deliberate salary drag that was codified in the CBA. That, along with the fact that it's just one year, is why players don't generally like getting slapped with the tag.

That's not true. I have given you examples of players like Asante Samuel who benefitted long term for being franchised. At least under the new CBA, many players benefitted from being franchised. Both Julius Peppers and Karlos Dansby may be even more compensated from being franchised twice.

The fact of the matter is that Samuel got the same or better contract he would have gotten a year earlier (since the cap has been expanded exponentially, so have the salaries) and got more money as a franchise player than he will get as a player in his early 30s when he is a free agent again. You can ignore the numbers, but most of the players who get franchised do make out in the long run as long as they are not too old, do not have a bad year, and/or do not get injured. That is why players hate it, but a player like Asante Samuel probably will have made $3-4 million in his career because of it when all it is all done.

Julius Peppers got close to $30 million over two years as a franchised player and could get another deal with $20-30 million guaranteed this offseason. So with his two franchised years, Peppers could have gotten the equivalent of upt to a five or six year deal with $50 million guaranteed by the end of the offseason. Do you really think he would have gotten a contract like that two years ago? Two years ago, his guarantee money would have been something like $20 million.

With salaries skyrocketing over the past few years and more players playing under their franchise tender (last year there was a record 9 players playing under the franchise tender), the franchise tender for most positions are really high especially in positions like DE. A franchised player can play for upwards to a seven figure salary for one year and get a seven figure bonus the next year.
 
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It was a question. A question isnt twisting your words, its asking your opinion.

Why quote me if you want to ask me a question. Quoting a person and then asking a question implies that the person previously posted something in the question.
 
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