Issues on offense

[BradyManny]

I think the OL is playing with one hand tied behind their back by the playcalling.

After the Miami game, I wrote a long thread in which I showed that Brady was hiking the ball with one second on the clock from the empty backfield set.

The Miami DL (4 of them) were firing off the ball BEFORE our center!! Before our linemen!

The one clear knock on the OC I can see is that it does seem to take him a while to get plays in. It seems like we're always rushing to get the play off. And Brady seemed pretty POed about it in the Buffalo game by the goal-line, and I think some mentioned Belichick getting on BOB's case in a similar situation in the Carolina game.

 

[Rob0729]

I still think people want to find one answer for the problems and usually it is the OC, but in reality it is usually all of the above. I think the play calling could be better. I think the execution could be better. I think the talent in the receiving corp is lacking.

 

[upstater1]

Weis was also stripped of his play calling duties by Parcells after Testaverde went down. When Parcells took over the play calling duties, Ray Lucas looked like an All Pro. Testaverde's best year as a pro by far was as a Raven in 1996 (4117 yards and 33 TDs) and Weis was in New England that year.

In 2003, the Pats had 4 games (or a quarter of the season) where they didn't score an offensive TD. They were 17th in total offense, 12th in scoring offense, and 15th in 3rd down conversion percentage.

In 2002, the Pats scored 14 points or less 4 times and 17 points or less six times.

I know the legend of Charlie Weis has been blown out into inhuman proportions, but let's deal with reality here. Most of people's memories of Weis seem to be of the 2004 season that has been now spread out to his entire career. Weis was a very good OC, but he had only one great year and the rest was good. In 2003, I would say it was mediocre and it was hidden by a historic defense.

I'm not most people. I was a huge fan of Weis's back then. Brady was coming into his own back then. Weis took that moribund Jets offense and damaged the Patriots the first year of the Parcells regime (frankly, I don't trust any decisions Parcells makes. Weis was unorthodox and not by the book, and that's why he had problems with Parcells). I was not one of the people criticizing Weis. I thought the guy was brilliant precisely because he kept the opposing defense off guard.

 

[BradyManny]

I still think people want to find one answer for the problems and usually it is the OC, but in reality it is usually all of the above. I think the play calling could be better. I think the execution could be better. I think the talent in the receiving corp is lacking.

This is very true. I think it is an all of the above kind of thing. New play-caller, weak wide receiver depth, injured QB, facing good pass defenses, winter weather, etc. It's all a factor.

That said, the top of my list would have wide receiver depth on it, if I were ranking the issues.

 

[Patspsycho]

The last several weeks, Brady has brought up the one-dimensionality of the offense in either his press conference or in his EEI interviews. The idea that he, or Bill O'Brien, or Bill Belichick, would somehow not realize that defenses are taking out Wes Welker & Randy Moss yet folks on patsfans.com could diagnose the issue...that doesn't fly to me. He, like the rest of the offensive coaching staff, is very cognizant of the issue.

Which tells me that either the coaching staff or Brady doesn't have faith in the other options or they aren't getting open. Belichick and Brady both intimated it was the latter in their WEEI appearances this week.

And let's face it, when the 3rd wide receiver on a air-attack team is either a career special teamer or a 7th rounder rookie QB turned wideout [with a broken arm], you have a serious problem. We miss Stallworth & Gaffney in this offense. There's no question about it. The 3rd wideout on this team is a starting wide receiver, they play between 50-75% of the snaps. It needs to be an above average wide receiver with experience in the league. And it's not.

It's a fundamental problem of the make-up of our team: No matter how good your first two options are, the defense can take them out if they allocate enough defenders to them. End of story. Belichick, Brady & Bill O'Brien are going to have to come up with an answer. I think 2WR, 2TE is probably the best answer they have, since I don't think Aiken or Edelman with his broken arm are creating mismatches right now. Who has a better chance of catching the ball, Aiken in 1-on-1 or Wes Welker sitting down between two defenders? Or Moss in double coverage? Aiken is still the last option in those progressions.

I think this puts it pretty well.

 

[upstater1]

The last several weeks, Brady has brought up the one-dimensionality of the offense in either his press conference or in his EEI interviews. The idea that he, or Bill O'Brien, or Bill Belichick, would somehow not realize that defenses are taking out Wes Welker & Randy Moss yet folks on patsfans.com could diagnose the issue...that doesn't fly to me. He, like the rest of the offensive coaching staff, is very cognizant of the issue.

Which tells me that either the coaching staff or Brady doesn't have faith in the other options or they aren't getting open. Belichick and Brady both intimated it was the latter in their WEEI appearances this week.

And let's face it, when the 3rd wide receiver on a air-attack team is either a career special teamer or a 7th rounder rookie QB turned wideout [with a broken arm], you have a serious problem. We miss Stallworth & Gaffney in this offense. There's no question about it. The 3rd wideout on this team is a starting wide receiver, they play between 50-75% of the snaps. It needs to be an above average wide receiver with experience in the league. And it's not.

It's a fundamental problem of the make-up of our team: No matter how good your first two options are, the defense can take them out if they allocate enough defenders to them. End of story. Belichick, Brady & Bill O'Brien are going to have to come up with an answer. I think 2WR, 2TE is probably the best answer they have, since I don't think Aiken or Edelman with his broken arm are creating mismatches right now. Who has a better chance of catching the ball, Aiken in 1-on-1 or Wes Welker sitting down between two defenders? Or Moss in double coverage? Aiken is still the last option in those progressions.

For me it's not a strategy problem. It's not like you can scheme this differently because of the offense that's installed. I think it's a great offense precisely because it allows Brady and Welker and Moss to make reads mid-play and look for the open spot.

The problem though is play-calling. It's not what happens in practice. It's what happens during the game. I was at the game on Sunday and I got a rare opportunity to watch Belichick up close. He doesn't talk when the offense is running plays. He's not calling plays.

So, Brady mentions the teams one-dimensionality, but does he not realize that the empty backfield is in effect something that screams ONE DIMENSION. It worked well in 2007 for a number of reasons (we had more weapons) but this offense with Moss and Welker should be performing at a much higher clip.

I agree with Reiss on this one, though he defends O'Brien generally.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not most people. I was a huge fan of Weis's back then. Brady was coming into his own back then. Weis took that moribund Jets offense and damaged the Patriots the first year of the Parcells regime (frankly, I don't trust any decisions Parcells makes. Weis was unorthodox and not by the book, and that's why he had problems with Parcells). I was not one of the people criticizing Weis. I thought the guy was brilliant precisely because he kept the opposing defense off guard.

Sorry to generalize you with the rest, but Weis was the same guy who was constantly calling WR screens in 2000 when Bledsoe could never hit a short guy like Troy Brown above his knees on that same play. He is also the guy on third and short would always call the FB draw that worked about 5% of the time (hence why so poor third down efficiency and so many three and out).

I think Weis was a very good OC, but he was definitely flawed and his contribution has been blown out of proportion by a lot of fans.

 

[Patspsycho]

I still think people want to find one answer for the problems and usually it is the OC, but in reality it is usually all of the above. I think the play calling could be better. I think the execution could be better. I think the talent in the receiving corp is lacking.

That is what I am also leaning towards. It's not just one simple thing or it would have been diagnosed and corrected by now.

I think BB has to be credited for being patient and maintaining course rather than trying to force things. That is a testament to his 35 years of experience in football. He probably has much more patience and foresight than 99% of us when it comes to waiting for an offense to click (and defense).

In all sincerity, I really don't think this is our year- it's basically a rebuilding year and should be one anyway because we've been languishing for a few years now and the dramatic offensive output we had in '07 disguised a lot of problems that have been exposed now, also we excused quite a few things last year because Cassel was the focus most of the time and the fall guy as well.

This is not to rule out that we could accomplish anything this year, because with Brady, it's always "never say never." That's the perk of having Brady and BB, because as along as we have those two, we are always in a position to contend.

 

[Deus Irae]

....That said, I can't blame the FO for the state of the wide receiver position. How were they supposed to know Lewis AND Galloway would be busts AND Tate would re-injure his knee. They had two veteran wideouts and one high-ceiling draft pick in the mix for that #3 spot, and none of them could take it.

Just to look from the other side:

1.) It's the job of the front office to 'know' if players will work in their system.

2) Other receivers have remained on the market and could have been brought in post-Galloway. Matt Jones is still out there, just as an example.

3.) Shame on the F.O. if they were relying on a rookie WR coming off of ACL surgery.

4.) If the issue with Galloway was understanding of the route reading, the O.C. could have designed plays that took such reading requirements out of Galloway's routes.

 

[upstater1]

Sorry to generalize you with the rest, but Weis was the same guy who was constantly calling WR screens in 2000 when Bledsoe could never hit a short guy like Troy Brown above his knees on that same play. He is also the guy on third and short would always call the FB draw that worked about 5% of the time (hence why so poor third down efficiency and so many three and out).

I think Weis was a very good OC, but he was definitely flawed and his contribution has been blown out of proportion by a lot of fans.

Well, as I said, he was unpredictable and unorthodox.

I don't like the FB draw either.

Charlie kept them guessing though. There's no way to look at how valuable that is.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Maybe we should go back to scripting the first 20 plays.

It gives us an opportunity to involve Moss early and

maybe then O'brien can get the play in on time.

 

[BradyManny]

Maybe we should go back to scripting the first 20 plays.

It gives us an opportunity to involve Moss early and

maybe then O'brien can get the play in on time.

I thought they were doing that still, that's no longer the case? If it's not, then I would agree, I think that might be a good move to add some stability to the offense.

 

[Deus Irae]

I still think people want to find one answer for the problems and usually it is the OC, but in reality it is usually all of the above. I think the play calling could be better. I think the execution could be better. I think the talent in the receiving corp is lacking.

I agree with this. It's a failure on multiple levels.

 

[BradyManny]

Just to look from the other side:

1.) It's the job of the front office to 'know' if players will work in their system.

2) Other receivers have remained on the market and could have been brought in post-Galloway. Matt Jones is still out there, just as an example.

3.) Shame on the F.O. if they were relying on a rookie WR coming off of ACL surgery.

4.) If the issue with Galloway was understanding of the route reading, the O.C. could have designed plays that took such reading requirements out of Galloway's routes.

All fair points. Clearly, they made a mistake, I just think its an understandable one.

For the last point, I think that's the biggest one to me. Just having a guy that could run a 4.3 right now would be an asset. We've seen Aiken run a go route down the sideline about half a dozen times at this point. He's not getting much separation. A few times, Brady has thrown a perfect ball and Aiken has dropped it or been interfered with. One time, Aiken made a spectacular play on a poorly thrown ball (Miami game). But the results have not been good. Aiken probably runs a 4.6 and his hands are worse than Galloway. So, I am with you, I find it hard to believe Galloway couldn't have helped this offense right now even if all he was doing was running a go-route a few times a game.

 

[BradyManny]

The problem though is play-calling. It's not what happens in practice. It's what happens during the game. I was at the game on Sunday and I got a rare opportunity to watch Belichick up close. He doesn't talk when the offense is running plays. He's not calling plays.

I think its time for Belichick to get more involved in the offense. I believe he's had the play-sheets in his hands at time of late, which is more involvement than normal.

Sure, the play-calling hasn't seemed great - but I agree with Rob - its all the factors. And for me, talent is the biggest one. And yes, so is execution. The O-Line has missed blocks, Brady has missed throws, the receivers have dropped balls. It's so many factors.

And pretty much all those factors have to be corrected in the next two weeks. And I think they can be. Fortunately, execution is the easiest thing to fix, IMO - because its tied to health, and the team should get healthier if they get to take Week 17 off. A healthy Brady will not miss throws, a healthy Moss gets the jump ball, etc.

 

[Deus Irae]

All fair points. Clearly, they made a mistake, I just think its an understandable one.

For the last point, I think that's the biggest one to me. Just having a guy that could run a 4.3 right now would be an asset. We've seen Aiken run a go route down the sideline about half a dozen times at this point. He's not getting much separation. A few times, Brady has thrown a perfect ball and Aiken has dropped it or been interfered with. One time, Aiken made a spectacular play on a poorly thrown ball (Miami game). But the results have not been good. Aiken probably runs a 4.6 and his hands are worse than Galloway. So, I am with you, I find it hard to believe Galloway couldn't have helped this offense right now even if all he was doing was running a go-route a few times a game.

I understand Moss' frustration. If I had to play against defenses that could all but ignore my partner on the outside and focus about 99.9999999999% of their deep defense on me, I'd be getting pissed off on occasion too.

 

[condon84]

I think the issue with our offense is the level of trust Brady has to the other receivers other than Welker and Moss, his OL, and O'Brien. It's all connected and what we are seeing now is a product of the lack of confidence he has in certain aspects of our offense.

O'Brien's playcalling predictability, other receivers other than Welker and Moss unable to get consistently open, and the OL breaking down for good stretches. All these factors play into his lack of trust in the whole operation and we are now at the point where he's not even looking anywhere else besides Welker and Moss because in his mind, that's where his best option of executing the play will be the highest. He is rushing his throws, not going through his progressions, and sometimes even forcing the ball into coverage.

 

[Mack Herron]

I think the issue with our offense is the level of trust Brady has to the other receivers other than Welker and Moss, his OL, and O'Brien. It's all connected and what we are seeing now is a product of the lack of confidence he has in certain aspects of our offense.

O'Brien's playcalling predictability, other receivers other than Welker and Moss unable to get consistently open, and the OL breaking down for good stretches. All these factors play into his lack of trust in the whole operation and we are now at the point where he's not even looking anywhere else besides Welker and Moss because in his mind, that's where his best option of executing the play will be the highest. He is rushing his throws, not going through his progressions, and sometimes even forcing the ball into coverage.

All true. But I think there has been a drop in Brady's productivity (primarily due to lack of accuracy) the last couple of weeks and that looks like injury.

 

[Kontradiction]

I still think people want to find one answer for the problems and usually it is the OC, but in reality it is usually all of the above. I think the play calling could be better. I think the execution could be better. I think the talent in the receiving corp is lacking.

Even so, the biggest and most obvious problem we have on offense is the health of the starting O-Line, specifically Stephen Neal. Super Bowl XLII, the beginning of the 2008 season, and the times which he has been out of the starting line-up this season have shown how valuable he is to this O-Line. With him, teams are unable to generate pressure up the middle and Brady has more time to throw. Without him, teams have generated pressure up the middle forcing Brady to make quick reads and, sometimes, bad throws. Not only that, but I strongly believe that his absence is directly linked to Brady's injuries this year as well (meaning that I believe if he had been in, Brady wouldn't be suffering from a rib injury right now). Yes, there are other issues on offense. Most have been addressed in this thread. Rookie playcaller, Brady recovering from injury, lack of a WR3, injuries to the RB corps. However, the health of the offensive line is the biggest reason for our lack of offensive production. A healthy Stephen Neal in the playoffs would help to vastly improve our offensive production.

 

[Rob0729]

Well, as I said, he was unpredictable and unorthodox.

I don't like the FB draw either.

Charlie kept them guessing though. There's no way to look at how valuable that is.

I think Charlie's unpredictability was overrated. You knew on third and short he was likely to do a FB draw. You knew when the Pats turned over the ball, the first play was always a deep pass to Branch or Givens. In 2002, he totally gave up on the run in the second half of games.

Weis was unpredictable when he had a lot of weapons to work with like in 2004. He wasn't nearly as unpredictable with the talent he had in previous years.