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Issues on offense


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I understand that many here believe that this year's offensive talent was not good enough. I don't think that the talent is the issue. Brady has been injured and O'Brain has been grossly incompetent. 1) He has not been able to develop schemes and game plans to take best advantage of the players he has 2) He has not been able to plan and adapt in individual games, and he has not been able to scheme around relative weaknesses and injuries.

I'd love to know more about the QB/receiver dynamic. We've seen similar situations with Gabriel and Jackson, so I'd love to know if there's a Brady issue here with this. We can all remember his frustration levels with these players.

You want to use a 2nd on a WR. The reality is that we have four top picks and several needs. WR could be a top need if some of the other needs were met through extensions and free agent signings. Barring that, we need DE's, OG's, OLB's, TE's and a RB.

One bottom line question is whether we wasted a top pick on Tate.

I've stated that the Tate pick to me was a bonus play after having so many picks in round 2, so I can't really criticize that one. To me, it was like playing with house money. Now, if you ask me about them playing him last season instead of putting him on IR......

As for the needs: I'd say that the team doesn't need to draft a RB, particularly in rounds 1 or 2, and I don't want the team drafting a TE with that pick in round 1. Other than that, we're not far apart. I pointed to D-line, LB and O-line in an earlier post:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/306281-rapoport-connolly-receives-extension-through-2011-a.html#post1655201
 
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I'd love to know more about the QB/receiver dynamic. We've seen similar situations with Gabriel and Jackson, so I'd love to know if there's a Brady issue here with this. We can all remember his frustration levels with these players.

There absolutely is. He's smart and precise yet adaptable not to mention driven and they aren't. He's a student of the game and mensa level reader of defenses employed by a defensive genius. He gravitates to receivers who can match his skill level or at least make a concerted effort to because that gives them an advantage that is difficult to counter. Branch, Givens, Brown, Patten, Moss,Welker and even Reche had that capacity. Reche just couldn't hang onto the damn ball on the easy throws...but that was the knock on him from his SD days (makes the great catch but flubs the routine catch at the worst time).

Most of those guys were driven, consistent effort guys. Only one brought elite talent to the fray. Lots of guys who have had success elsewhere in a more wide open talent centric system are less inclined to devote the attention to detail that this system is predicated on. There ego tells them they shouldn't have to. That is why Bill requests you check those at the door when entering Gillette.

Bill isn't ever going to dumb down the system to accommodate one guy. It's tough enough when he has to do that occasionally to accommodate an entire unit...
 
O'Brien does not force Brady to throw into double-coverage when Faulk is wide open.

It's not all play calling. Brady is not making all his reads this season. Is that him, the O-line or an injury? Could be a little of each.
 
We really need to start getting Aiken/Edelman involved more. Maybe Isaih as well. We can't win games on the shoulders of only 2 WR's, no matter how good they are.

The problems are:

1. The playcalling.

2. Brady locking onto Moss/Welker too much.

3. Other receivers not playing every week. Aiken/Edelman seem to rotate #3 receiver duties every other week with one of them being in and the other out. Even when one of them is in the game they'll only get like 2 targets a game... Brady needs to find them more.
 
I agree that spreading out the receptions would help the offense.

I disagree with the notion that the solutions are Aiken, Edelman and Stanback. We would do just fine with more receptions from Watson, Baker, Faulk and one of the other running backs.

We really need to start getting Aiken/Edelman involved more. Maybe Isaih as well. We can't win games on the shoulders of only 2 WR's, no matter how good they are.

The problems are:

1. The playcalling.

2. Brady locking onto Moss/Welker too much.

3. Other receivers not playing every week. Aiken/Edelman seem to rotate #3 receiver duties every other week with one of them being in and the other out. Even when one of them is in the game they'll only get like 2 targets a game... Brady needs to find them more.
 
I agree that spreading out the receptions would help the offense.

I disagree with the notion that the solutions are Aiken, Edelman and Stanback. We would do just fine with more receptions from Watson, Baker, Faulk and one of the other running backs.

Well, according to what I heard on the radio (I think it was BB, but I'm not sure since there was a lot going on at the time), the tight ends couldn't get open in the last game.
 
Let us presume that the OL didn't need the help of the tight ends. Then the question for the OC is how to take the pressure off of Moss and Welker. After evaluated our talent, he must make judgements on how to draw up the game plan and the various offensive schemes.

If Watson can't get open in the 3-5 yeard patterns, perhaps longer patterns can be used. He certainly has enough speed to be a threat down field. If our best options are the running backs, let's use them.

I do not know what the best option for offensive game plan is. I suspect O'Brian doesn't either. Obviously, he has this job for one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL, so he SHOULD be expected to be able to work it out.

Well, according to what I heard on the radio (I think it was BB, but I'm not sure since there was a lot going on at the time), the tight ends couldn't get open in the last game.
 
Let us presume that the OL didn't need the help of the tight ends. Then the question for the OC is how to take the pressure off of Moss and Welker. After evaluated our talent, he must make judgements on how to draw up the game plan and the various offensive schemes.

If Watson can't get open in the 3-5 yeard patterns, perhaps longer patterns can be used. He certainly has enough speed to be a threat down field. If our best options are the running backs, let's use them.

I do not know what the best option for offensive game plan is. I suspect O'Brian doesn't either. Obviously, he has this job for one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL, so he SHOULD be expected to be able to work it out.

Given you at least admit you don't know what the best option for an offensive game plan is from week to week, I cannot understand how you come to the conclusion O'Brien and the entire staff he collaborates with doesn't. That game plan changes somewhat from week to week depending on an opponents strengths and weaknesses and available personnel. It also changes depending on our own strengths and weaknesses and available personnel. More often than not we have faced opponents who can bring pressure, ergo the TE's are held in to block. Brady seldom has the time to find an open man beyond 5 yards, let alone a TE who is almost always being asked to at least chip someone on his way out. That his first two reads are generally his two elite receivers is not a shock. If they weren't that would be the real head scratcher. When they cannot get to Moss deep it's because of pressure and coverage, and to counter that they bring him into play by running him across the middle - but that is not his forte. Unfortunately absent a legitimate #3 to at least draw safety attention the deep game has become little more than a decoy that Brady takes a shot at two or three times a game hoping against hope Moss can make a big play in coverage be it a reception or PI or fending off a pick. He has to take that shot or the ruse is up alltogether.

I don't get the reluctance to admit that there is a talent gap here that is impacting this team's ability to execute efficiently. The don't run the ball (or rush opposing passers) well enough to rely on the run. They don't pass block well enough to beat coverage. As a unit their receiving corps don't run routes or read defenses well enough to get open consistently (Welker being the exception) or shift focus off Moss and Welker. Our 3rd and 4th receiver options are a couple of TE's coached primarily to block, two QB conversion projects who are also rookies to the league or this team - one battling a broken arm for several weeks after being pressed into service when the pro bowler he vaguely resembles went down and the other fresh off the PS where his focus was scout team QB before being pressed into service when nothing else was panning out, and a ST'er who is clearly little more than a decent 5th WR at best. As someone else observed, the problem isn't that these guys have no place on the team, it's that they have been pushed too far up the depth chart too fast.

The best any of the armchair geniuses here can apparently come up with is since we're not winning frequently or convincingly enough the OC is obviously incompetent... Apparently there is a little NEM in most of you. These players simply aren't collectively good enough. Whether they lack talent or experience or drive or their focus is intermittent, some of which they may develop over or correct in time, it's not there at this time and hasn't been there consistently at any point this season.

As an example, the Colts knew what they were up against heading into this season. They began working out the kinks in a plan to mitigate it in the spring. Manning worked extensively with two rookie receivers to complement Wayne and Clark. They added a second 1st round running back and beefed up their DL. They reshuffled an OL with a disappointing LT draftee. And they've been able to grind out 14 wins against fairly tepid competition while building a revamped foundation on offense on the fly.

NE approached this season believing getting Brady back would cure all. They ignored the nagging deficiencies on their OL under cover of Cassel. They added another aging RB with injury concerns and that bit them in the ass out of the gate. They replaced their established #3 WR whom they let walk over half a million with two veterans who had no experience in a read and react offense and watched them wash out in this system. That left them filling those roster spots with 2 QB conversion projects who most here felt were PS longshots at WR at best. Guys who had few if any reps with Brady throughout camp and pre season because he was focused on trying to build rapore with the veteran washouts. Oh, and Bill was focused on turning over the defense on the fly concurrently.

Yeah, it's got to be the inexperience of the OC at work...:rolleyes:

FO Bill and his staff made some mistakes this season. They have every season. It's the nature of the job. What some here want them to do would only exacerbate that and luckily they know better than to. Bringing in a recognized NFL OC who was only available because he failed somewhere else (often repeatedly) who has no experience running this well established offense would be adding fuel to the fire. The beauty of system football is while talent comes and goes the system endures. We saw that result in 11 wins last season with a QB who hadn't started a football game since HS. The same people who want a more experienced OC wanted a more experienced backup QB, too. What they failed to recognize is there was no more system experienced backup on the planet. Ditto OC candidates - none better equipped to run this offense than those systematically groomed to.

Now, if you want to change the offense or the defense, if that's what you're really calling for when you decry the lack of "talent" at the coordinator position - that's a whole other argument. Charlie and RAC grew up in these systems and owe whatever success they have achieved in life to hard work and a guy willing to promote candidates from within to implement and run his systems. Same deal for Josh, Scott, Dimetroff and even Mangidiot (who has failed to achieve his own career aspirations, but like RAC and Charlie amassed a bank account that will mitigate personal disappointment somewhat).

The players have it right. Hard work and continuing to work on execution is the only avenue open to this team at this time. They can't replace or upgrade talent. It may not work and if so they will have to deal with that in the coming offseason. I hope for once they really do evaluate their talent across the board and in particular focus on both sides of the trenches. That would be the best way to ensure we have the capacity to utilize TE's and lean on the running game. Blockers and a pass rush. An OL that can block 3 and 4 rushers and a DL that can generate pressure with 3 and 4. Brady can do more with less again once he has that, and the OC here will again look like a genius.
 
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I don't understand your position. You point out how Indy had talent deficiencies and solved them NOT THOUGH ACQUIRING MORE TALENT but in working with what they had. Manning did indeed work the entire offseason with the weak wide receiver talent that was brought in. And, for many years, the colts have relied on the contributions of 5th and higher round draft choices. Also, their game plans take advantage of their strengths and hide their weaknesses. Somehow, I think a lot of this adaptation to conditions has to do with the coaching. If the whole reason for the 2009 success of indy is the greatness of Manning and how hard he personally works, then say so, but I think the coaches are an integral part to the success of Indy despite talent and injury issues (the same kind that everyone has to deal with). This was so much true that many predicted that indy wouldn't even make the playoffs when it was thought that the OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR would lose some of his responsiibilites.

I think that if our offensive COACHES and OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR did as good a job
as that of Indy, then we would have more success this year.

The bottom line is that, of course, we should be able to improve by devoting more and more resources to the offense (at the cost of less for the defense). Of course, we could choose better players (that is always easier in hindsight). For me, the real trick to success is to do the best with what you have. I don't think the coaching staff has done that with our offense. Apparently, you have a higher regard to what they have done.



Given you at least admit you don't know what the best option for an offensive game plan is from week to week, I cannot understand how you come to the conclusion O'Brien and the entire staff he collaborates with doesn't. That game plan changes somewhat from week to week depending on an opponents strengths and weaknesses and available personnel. It also changes depending on our own strengths and weaknesses and available personnel. More often than not we have faced opponents who can bring pressure, ergo the TE's are held in to block. Brady seldom has the time to find an open man beyond 5 yards, let alone a TE who is almost always being asked to at least chip someone on his way out. That his first two reads are generally his two elite receivers is not a shock. If they weren't that would be the real head scratcher. When they cannot get to Moss deep it's because of pressure and coverage, and to counter that they bring him into play by running him across the middle - but that is not his forte. Unfortunately absent a legitimate #3 to at least draw safety attention the deep game has become little more than a decoy that Brady takes a shot at two or three times a game hoping against hope Moss can make a big play in coverage be it a reception or PI or fending off a pick. He has to take that shot or the ruse is up alltogether.

I don't get the reluctance to admit that there is a talent gap here that is impacting this team's ability to execute efficiently. The don't run the ball (or rush opposing passers) well enough to rely on the run. They don't pass block well enough to beat coverage. As a unit their receiving corps don't run routes or read defenses well enough to get open consistently (Welker being the exception) or shift focus off Moss and Welker. Our 3rd and 4th receiver options are a couple of TE's coached primarily to block, two QB conversion projects who are also rookies to the league or this team - one battling a broken arm for several weeks after being pressed into service when the pro bowler he vaguely resembles went down and the other fresh off the PS where his focus was scout team QB before being pressed into service when nothing else was panning out, and a ST'er who is clearly little more than a decent 5th WR at best. As someone else observed, the problem isn't that these guys have no place on the team, it's that they have been pushed too far up the depth chart too fast.

The best any of the armchair geniuses here can apparently come up with is since we're not winning frequently or convincingly enough the OC is obviously incompetent... Apparently there is a little NEM in most of you. These players simply aren't collectively good enough. Whether they lack talent or experience or drive or their focus is intermittent, some of which they may develop over or correct in time, it's not there at this time and hasn't been there consistently at any point this season.

As an example, the Colts knew what they were up against heading into this season. They began working out the kinks in a plan to mitigate it in the spring. Manning worked extensively with two rookie receivers to complement Wayne and Clark. They added a second 1st round running back and beefed up their DL. They reshuffled an OL with a disappointing LT draftee. And they've been able to grind out 14 wins against fairly tepid competition while building a revamped foundation on offense on the fly.

NE approached this season believing getting Brady back would cure all. They ignored the nagging deficiencies on their OL under cover of Cassel. They added another aging RB with injury concerns and that bit them in the ass out of the gate. They replaced their established #3 WR whom they let walk over half a million with two veterans who had no experience in a read and react offense and watched them wash out in this system. That left them filling those roster spots with 2 QB conversion projects who most here felt were PS longshots at WR at best. Guys who had few if any reps with Brady throughout camp and pre season because he was focused on trying to build rapore with the veteran washouts. Oh, and Bill was focused on turning over the defense on the fly concurrently.

Yeah, it's got to be the inexperience of the OC at work...:rolleyes:

FO Bill and his staff made some mistakes this season. They have every season. It's the nature of the job. What some here want them to do would only exacerbate that and luckily they know better than to. Bringing in a recognized NFL OC who was only available because he failed somewhere else (often repeatedly) who has no experience running this well established offense would be adding fuel to the fire. The beauty of system football is while talent comes and goes the system endures. We saw that result in 11 wins last season with a QB who hadn't started a football game since HS. The same people who want a more experienced OC wanted a more experienced backup QB, too. What they failed to recognize is there was no more system experienced backup on the planet. Ditto OC candidates - none better equipped to run this offense than those systematically groomed to.

Now, if you want to change the offense or the defense, if that's what you're really calling for when you decry the lack of "talent" at the coordinator position - that's a whole other argument. Charlie and RAC grew up in these systems and owe whatever success they have achieved in life to hard work and a guy willing to promote candidates from within to implement and run his systems. Same deal for Josh, Scott, Dimetroff and even Mangidiot (who has failed to achieve his own career aspirations, but like RAC and Charlie amassed a bank account that will mitigate personal disappointment somewhat).

The players have it right. Hard work and continuing to work on execution is the only avenue open to this team at this time. They can't replace or upgrade talent. It may not work and if so they will have to deal with that in the coming offseason. I hope for once they really do evaluate their talent across the board and in particular focus on both sides of the trenches. That would be the best way to ensure we have the capacity to utilize TE's and lean on the running game. Blockers and a pass rush. An OL that can block 3 and 4 rushers and a DL that can generate pressure with 3 and 4. Brady can do more with less again once he has that, and the OC here will again look like a genius.
 
I don't understand your position. You point out how Indy had talent deficiencies and solved them NOT THOUGH ACQUIRING MORE TALENT but in working with what they had. Manning did indeed work the entire offseason with the weak wide receiver talent that was brought in. And, for many years, the colts have relied on the contributions of 5th and higher round draft choices. Also, their game plans take advantage of their strengths and hide their weaknesses. Somehow, I think a lot of this adaptation to conditions has to do with the coaching. If the whole reason for the 2009 success of indy is the greatness of Manning and how hard he personally works, then say so, but I think the coaches are an integral part to the success of Indy despite talent and injury issues (the same kind that everyone has to deal with). This was so much true that many predicted that indy wouldn't even make the playoffs when it was thought that the OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR would lose some of his responsiibilites.

I think that if our offensive COACHES and OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR did as good a job
as that of Indy, then we would have more success this year.

The bottom line is that, of course, we should be able to improve by devoting more and more resources to the offense (at the cost of less for the defense). Of course, we could choose better players (that is always easier in hindsight). For me, the real trick to success is to do the best with what you have. I don't think the coaching staff has done that with our offense. Apparently, you have a higher regard to what they have done.

Sorry mg but the Colts drafted Gonzalez in the first in 2007 and got him aclimated while Harrison was still productive, then Garcon last season because they anticipated Harrison was aging out and drafted Collie this season as insurance. Both were college wide outs. Manning went to work with those two in May because at least one of them had to gel this season or they were in trouble. Turns out they needed both and they were ready.

Meanwhile Tom was wasting time attempting to teach old dogs who didn't make the roster cuts new tricks all offseason. As a QB conversion project Edleman was basically the 6th receiver in camp and Stanbeck wasn't even here and was added late as a PS QB when they cut Gutz and KOC and Hoyer became the #2 QB. He didn't start taking snaps at WR until they needed someone to due to Edleman's injury and Tate coming off PUP only to land on IR. And that was after Edleman suddenly found himself subbing for a probowler who is arguably the best slot receiver in the league in weeks 2 and 3... That has nothing to do with coaching and game plans. In fact it's a testament to coaching either could even play. The FO miscalculated big time on offense in a year when they needed it to cover for a defense in transition. They let Gaffney walk and swung and missed on two replacements and again waited for a rookie to emerge off PUP which is beyond folly.

BTW Indy has rookie OC's and DC's this season. They didn't get their former coordinators back until camp as consultants. In the meantime those receivers had 4 months and a full season and offseason respectively to learn the Colts offense as Manning runs it which is essentially the same way it's been run for almost a decade. Also not an easy task. But because they had that time they were able to compensate for the loss of Gonzalez since week 2. And while they busted on LT they were able to compensate and that allows their TE to be used as a weapon. And their #1 WR Reggie Wayne somehow manages to either beat double coverage or complete throws tight spaces. Go figure. And that offense as a unit somehow manages to execute better as their games unfold and are on the line.
 
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