MMQB on Moss and Brady

[emoney_33]

I am a big Brady defender, and I think Moss hot-dogged it yesterday and was not into the game.

That being said, Brady saw the pressure and floated that throw. It was on Brady.

Yes that is what I said. FAR from Randy's fault, since the poster I replied to said Randy caused 2 turnovers.

 

[emoney_33]

Seriously did we watch the same play? Moss was in position to make the ball. Gamble said that Moss made the break too slow. Even being double covered, Moss was in position to make the play or break it up before any defender could get to it. That INT was on Moss, the one the week before in the endzone against Miami was all Brady though.

Actually I will actually be fair. It was a miscommunication between Moss and Brady. So it could have been Brady's fault or it could be Moss' fault (only Moss and Brady know for sure), but from everything I have seen I think it was Moss'. Moss is still at fault since he didn't even try to break it up eventhough it was in range.

You WANT it to be on Moss, but it wasn't. Plain and simple. Yet you rather take Gamble's word over Brady's. Please do not use player's comments as proof if you are going to be subjective about which comments to use as proof.

 

[emoney_33]

Stats in the NFL are deceiving. Not even Brady's mother would say he is having a great year. He has been brilliant at times, but others he has been part of the problem like last week.

Fact is he's having a better year than 01, 02, 03, 04, 05 and 06. I don't care how you want to spin it, there's no way around it.

Also did you know that Wes Welker had the same statistical year in 08 that he had in 07? Even going from Brady to Cassel, can you guess what didn't change?

And if Moss was a Jets' player and having the same exact season, you wouldn't be laughing about how he is dogging it. Sorry, but you seem to let your fandom of Moss cloud your judgement of the guy.

Well yea I hate the Jets and don't follow them closely and wouldn't go out of my way to get into a discussion about a Jets player, negatively or positively. That has NOTHING to do with this conversation.

 

[Rob0729]

I am a big Brady defender, and I think Moss hot-dogged it yesterday and was not into the game.

That being said, Brady saw the pressure and floated that throw. It was on Brady.

But there was a miscommunication. Moss was not where Brady thought he would be. Chris Gamble said Moss was slow out of his break on that play. Now that has nothing to do with the floating and Moss was in front of the defenders.

The reason that ball was INT was because Moss was not in the place Brady thought he would be not because it floated. Because if Moss was where Brady thought he would be, the best Gamble could have done was broken up the pass since Moss would have been between him and the ball. Now that miscommunication could be on Brady, but the evidence points to Moss.

 

[Synovia]

Seriously did we watch the same play? Moss was in position to make the ball. Gamble said that Moss made the break too slow. Even being double covered, Moss was in position to make the play or break it up before any defender could get to it. That INT was on Moss, the one the week before in the endzone against Miami was all Brady though.

Yeah, I did watch it. Moss wasn't in position to make the ball. It looked to me like it was just a terrible throw. Moss looked like he was expecting the ball to be in a completely different place.

Considering how consistently terrible brady has been the last couple weeks, I think it was just a bad throw.

 

[Rob0729]

You WANT it to be on Moss, but it wasn't. Plain and simple. Yet you rather take Gamble's word over Brady's. Please do not use player's comments as proof if you are going to be subjective about which comments to use as proof.

I don't want it to be on Moss. I am not one one who points fingers at any one player. I have even said it could be Brady since it is a miscommunication and that could be either the receiver or the QB.

Ok, I won't use players comments as proof, I will use Brady's. Brady's isn't a player, he is Patriots player. I'm sorry, but I used my eyes supported by what Gamble said.

Believe me. I don't want Moss to be part of the problem, but the evidence is there that he dogged it yesterday. I am not a blind yahoo homer who refuses to admit that one of the star players on this team dogs it. I am not one of those guys who comes here and bashes the team when they lose a game or don't play a perfect 4 quarters. You got me confused with someone else.

 

[Synovia]

Also did you know that Wes Welker had the same statistical year in 08 that he had in 07? Even going from Brady to Cassel, can you guess what didn't change?

Everything but Brady.

 

[emoney_33]

I don't want it to be on Moss. I am not one one who points fingers at any one player. I have even said it could be Brady since it is a miscommunication and that could be either the receiver or the QB.

Ok, I won't use players comments as proof, I will use Brady's. Brady's isn't a player, he is Patriots player. I'm sorry, but I used my eyes supported by what Gamble said.

Believe me. I don't want Moss to be part of the problem, but the evidence is there that he dogged it yesterday. I am not a blind yahoo homer who refuses to admit that one of the star players on this team dogs it. I am not one of those guys who comes here and bashes the team when they lose a game or don't play a perfect 4 quarters. You got me confused with someone else.

You have said two things in this thread that I would like to point out. First you note Brady has at times played poorly this season. Then you say the evidence supports it was Moss' fault. The evidence actually is in favor of it being Brady's fault. He is the one that missed an entire year and has at times this season looked a little rusty.

What could be the reason that Brady is having statistically the 2nd best year of his career while notably playing poorly after having missed the year with injury? Could one major factor be Moss?

 

[Rob0729]

Fact is he's having a better year than 01, 02, 03, 04, 05 and 06. I don't care how you want to spin it, there's no way around it.

Also did you know that Wes Welker had the same statistical year in 08 that he had in 07? Even going from Brady to Cassel, can you guess what didn't change?

Statistically, yes he is having a better year. Unfortunately, statistic and production on the field are not the same thing. I'm sorry, but we have seen this offense struggle mightily in the red zone and on third downs this year which is uncharacteristic (other than 2003) for a Brady run defense. Brady has thrown far too many illadvised passes. The offense has failed to produce in second half of games especially in losses.

Some of Brady's best years have been statistically his worst or at least not near his best. Statistics can be overrated for a QB (hence why the media loves Jay Culter so much for his statistically great, but actually average 2008 season). Brady has been off far a decent part of the year.

Ummm... If Welker is doing the same with Brady as he did with Cassel, doesn't that defeat your argument a bit that Brady is having his second best year other than 2007? Welker had a great year last year because Cassel couldn't throw the deep ball.

Sorry, but just because Brady had some incredible games that have made his stats look impressive, doesn't change the fact he struggled early in the season and the last three weeks. In the last three weeks, the guy has had 2 TDs and 5 picks. Now not all the problems with Brady this year is in his control (injuries, poor play calling, dropped passes, etc.), but you can look at the stats board to judge Brady. I will look at his play on the field.

Brady had a five week stretch where he got over 300 yards (1705 yards in total) each game and had 14 of his 23 TDs. The other eight games he had 2125 yards and 9 TDs. So in the five game stretch he averaged 341 yards and 2.6 TDs per game. In the other 8 games, he averaged 265 yards and 1.1 TDs a game. See how stats can be deceiving.

Well yea I hate the Jets and don't follow them closely and wouldn't go out of my way to get into a discussion about a Jets player, negatively or positively. That has NOTHING to do with this conversation.

And the media opinion on Moss doesn't either at least when discussing my opinions, but you keep bring this up.

But you love the Pats and Moss and accusing him of dogging it even if it is true is sacriledge.

 

[emoney_33]

Rob, you are arguing my point more for me. Brady is PRODUCING better while struggling with Moss/Welker on the team than he was while at the top of his game WITHOUT them. The entire point is Moss is not dogging it and is GOOD for the team.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

You WANT it to be on Moss, but it wasn't. Plain and simple. Yet you rather take Gamble's word over Brady's. Please do not use player's comments as proof if you are going to be subjective about which comments to use as proof.

Brady himself said he is throwing to a spot in that situation based on the coverage. He thoughtfully allowed that Randy apparently saw something else and was in a different spot...

If some here don't want to aknowledge what happened yesterday, so be it. Just quit making Brady the scapegoat because we all trust him to handle it.

This team is in a tough spot. On the heels of what has transpired with AD, they are now caught in the difficult position of supporting their talented player/teamate/captain in hopes he can still do what the rest of them are doing in being mentally and physically tough and battling through all manner of insult or injury...while not sending the wrong message to less gifted players that talent does in fact warrant special treatment.

Randy asked for and was given permission to stay in Miami and not fly back with his teamates after the Miami game. Not sure if he asked before or after the crushing loss, but on the heels of back to back road losses that was pretty lame. Then to be late on his first day back...

If his feelings are hurt or his back is hurting or he's embarassed or feeling disrespected...whatever. Fight through it like your QB and your slot WR and your beleagured RB and your closest friend and the HC who gave you a shot.

Holley is just telling us he knows for a fact that Brady called Moss out in practice about a month ago and it didn't go over well at the time and has caused a bit of a problem between them. Moss called Tom later that evening and told him he'd hurt his feelings...

So again, what are his teamates and coaches to do...

 

[Rob0729]

Yeah, I did watch it. Moss wasn't in position to make the ball. It looked to me like it was just a terrible throw. Moss looked like he was expecting the ball to be in a completely different place.

Considering how consistently terrible brady has been the last couple weeks, I think it was just a bad throw.

But you are making an assumption (which I am admitting I am too). The thing is that the ball was thrown to the sideline and usually an out play like that is too the sidelines, not two yards in. I could be wrong, but based on that, Gamble's comments, and how Moss dogged it for most of the game; I am willing to stand behind my assumptions.

I have blamed Brady for many of the bad passes he has thrown especially in recent weeks, but that one appeared to be on Moss to me. At the very least, he didn't make any effort to break up the play.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Gotta love the "I used my eyes!" defense. What did your eyes see, exactly? Saying that you used your eyes and leaving it at that is an outright admission that you have a subjective and arbitrary opinion that can't be supported in any meaningful way.

Which is about what I'd expect from anyone who's sharpening their pitchforks and preparing their torches after one bad game from Moss

 

[BradyFTW!]

But you are making an assumption (which I am admitting I am too). The thing is that the ball was thrown to the sideline and usually an out play like that is too the sidelines, not two yards in. I could be wrong, but based on that, Gamble's comments, and how Moss dogged it for most of the game; I am willing to stand behind my assumptions.

I have blamed Brady for many of the bad passes he has thrown especially in recent weeks, but that one appeared to be on Moss to me. At the very least, he didn't make any effort to break up the play.

Brady outright stated that Moss was in position to make the catch for where he was anticipating that the ball would be thrown. If Brady can admit that the interception wasn't on Randy, I don't see why you can't.

 

[Rob0729]

Brady himself said he is throwing to a spot in that situation based on the coverage. He thoughtfully allowed that Randy apparently saw something else and was in a different spot...

If some here don't want to aknowledge what happened yesterday, so be it. Just quit making Brady the scapegoat because we all trust him to handle it.

This team is in a tough spot. On the heels of what has transpired with AD, they are now caught in the difficult position of supporting their talented player/teamate/captain in hopes he can still do what the rest of them are doing in being mentally and physically tough and battling through all manner of insult or injury...while not sending the wrong message to less gifted players that talent does in fact warrant special treatment.

Randy asked for and was given permission to stay in Miami and not fly back with his teamates after the Miami game. Not sure if he asked before or after the crushing loss, but on the heels of back to back road losses that was pretty lame. Then to be late on his first day back...

If his feelings are hurt or his back is hurting or he's embarassed or feeling disrespected...whatever. Fight through it like your QB and your slot WR and your beleagured RB and your closest friend and the HC who gave you a shot.

Holley is just telling us he knows for a fact that Brady called Moss out in practice about a month ago and it didn't go over well at the time and has caused a bit of a problem between them. Moss called Tom later that evening and told him he'd hurt his feelings...

So again, what are his teamates and coaches to do...

Thanks for stating it better than me. I agree it was a miscommunication between Moss and Brady. And as you said, Brady saw the coverage one way and Moss obviously saw the coverage the other. I will trust Brady over anyone else in the league in reading coverages.

I didn't hear the Brady calling out Moss thing. It did seem clear Brady was trying to give Moss some instructions on the sidelines and Moss not really taking it well whether he outright ignored him or not.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Gotta love the "I used my eyes!" defense. What did your eyes see, exactly? Saying that you used your eyes and leaving it at that is an outright admission that you have a subjective and arbitrary opinion that can't be supported in any meaningful way.

Which is about what I'd expect from anyone who's sharpening their pitchforks and preparing their torches after one bad game from Moss

It's not one bad game, but other than that...nice try. Brady confirmed it in not so many words when asked about that play last night and again this AM.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Brady himself said he is throwing to a spot in that situation based on the coverage. He thoughtfully allowed that Randy apparently saw something else and was in a different spot...

If some here don't want to aknowledge what happened yesterday, so be it. Just quit making Brady the scapegoat because we all trust him to handle it.

This team is in a tough spot. On the heels of what has transpired with AD, they are now caught in the difficult position of supporting their talented player/teamate/captain in hopes he can still do what the rest of them are doing in being mentally and physically tough and battling through all manner of insult or injury...while not sending the wrong message to less gifted players that talent does in fact warrant special treatment.

Randy asked for and was given permission to stay in Miami and not fly back with his teamates after the Miami game. Not sure if he asked before or after the crushing loss, but on the heels of back to back road losses that was pretty lame. Then to be late on his first day back...

If his feelings are hurt or his back is hurting or he's embarassed or feeling disrespected...whatever. Fight through it like your QB and your slot WR and your beleagured RB and your closest friend and the HC who gave you a shot.

Holley is just telling us he knows for a fact that Brady called Moss out in practice about a month ago and it didn't go over well at the time and has caused a bit of a problem between them. Moss called Tom later that evening and told him he'd hurt his feelings...

So again, what are his teamates and coaches to do...

After thinking this through, there has to be more to Randy's plight. So Moss goes in the tank for 4 games b/c TB hurt his feelings? I mean, I know everyone can get embarassed or hurt if they feel are betrayed in some way letting that effect on-the-field performance is unprofessional.

 

[Rob0729]

Gotta love the "I used my eyes!" defense. What did your eyes see, exactly? Saying that you used your eyes and leaving it at that is an outright admission that you have a subjective and arbitrary opinion that can't be supported in any meaningful way.

Which is about what I'd expect from anyone who's sharpening their pitchforks and preparing their torches after one bad game from Moss

LOL! You're too cute. Sharpening my pitchfork?!? Precious. I have never sharpened the pitch forks for anyone.

I think Moss dogged it yesterday. I think he has dogged it several other times this season. I think if he continues, then I will want blood. At this point, I just want an attitude adjustment from him.

I'm sorry that I didn't use my keen sense of smell to flush out that the guy was dogging it yesterday, my eyes were the only senses I could use to get it. Yes, Moss dogged it yesterday. Yes, it was my opinion that he was responsible for the INT and it is supported by a lot of evidence. I have never believed what Brady says to the media and never will. Whether it was Brady's fault or not, he was going to take credit for it. That is how Brady works.

No one other than Randy and Tom and the coaching staff will ever know who really is as fault. As MoLewis better stated than I, it was a miscommunication between Moss and Brady. One had one presnap read and the other had a different one. I will side with Brady on these types of things.

I have never been a huge Moss fan, but I appreciate what he has done for this team. He has been a huge contributor to many of the wins this year, but he has also contribute to the losses. I don't think he should be cut. I don't want him burned at the stakes. I want him to care more and try harder though like Welker does.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

After thinking this through, there has to be more to Randy's plight. So Moss goes in the tank for 4 games b/c TB hurt his feelings? I mean, I know everyone can get embarassed or hurt if they feel are betrayed in some way letting that effect on-the-field performance is unprofessional.

I believe that is the behavior Chris Carter was referring to when he said he thought Randy was past that.

 

[Rob0729]

After thinking this through, there has to be more to Randy's plight. So Moss goes in the tank for 4 games b/c TB hurt his feelings? I mean, I know everyone can get embarassed or hurt if they feel are betrayed in some way letting that effect on-the-field performance is unprofessional.

I don't know if I buy Moss going in the tank because of what Brady said to him in one practice, but it wouldn't shock me considering how much so many WRs can be egotistical head cases. That would send TO and others into the tank (and no Moss is nothing like TO, just giving the extreme). I would like to believe that alone wouldn't send Moss into the tank.

I would assume it would take more than that or Belichick would never have sent him home on Wednesday. Granted if yesterday's performance was a direct result of that punishment, I blame Belichick for making a bad situation worse and not knowing the temperment of his star WR. I couldn't care less how that affected AD, but he can't aford to send Randy into a spiral.