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MMQB on Moss and Brady

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MoLewisrocks, Dec 14, 2009.

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  1. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Saints chase perfection; Colts plan to rest starters; more NFL - Peter King - SI.com
  2. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ben Watson certainly isn't "useless as a receiver". He's under used if anything.
  3. Mark.

    Mark. Rookie

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    Totally agree-He was huge in the first Buffalo game. Don't know why we haven't used him more.
  4. Willie55

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    He had a good game yesterday too, including a touchdown catch.
  5. emoney_33

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    Welker would struggle to get 3 receptions passed the LOS if you take Moss out of this lineup. This is a pile of trash piece. His teammates voted him as captain because he's a baby right? Good grief, you all can say it as many times as you want, it's not going to make it true. They are not coddling or babying Moss to prevent him from "quitting" or "tanking". But the naysayers need an out, when he inevitably breaks out for another big game they can point to the "coddling" as bringing him off the "edge". It's so ridiculous, setting up the tired failed argument of Moss being a quitter.
  6. swheeler23

    swheeler23 Rookie

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  7. Tunescribe

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    Moss doesn't seem to respond to positive reinforcement. He seems to get worse with negative reinforcement. He doesn't seem to perform consistently in very cold weather. What's a coach to do? Maybe BB should bring in a spiritual mentor for the players like Jim Brown, or that Dr. Harry whatshisname who works with the 49ers players. Maybe Randy is injured, depressed, lonely -- who knows? What an odd predicament.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2009
  8. KontradictioN

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    I disagree on the points about Watson. He's very effective as a receiver when he's allowed to run routes, which is what we're going to need him to do in the last quarter of the season and in the playoffs. Disagree with Moss being "totally useless in the line-up". At this point, he's the best wide receiver we have and, even if he isn't catching the ball, he's a great decoy. Without him, defenses shut Welker down.

    As for the parts I agree with, I agree with his stance about Stallworth and Gaffney over Aiken and Edelman. I really wish those two were still with us. It's still a completely mystery to me, to this day, why they supplanted Stallworth with Gaffney in the starting line-up in 2007 when Stallworth was more effective at drawing double coverage than Gaffney was. But eh, that's over with. Also agree that, if Fewell is smart, he doubles both Welker and Moss and makes the other guys beat him. As much as it hurts this offense, I actually hope teams do that more to force Brady to spread the ball around to guys like Edelman, Stanback, Aiken, and Watson if they are open. While we're hurting for a respectable (that is, a guy that can draw double coverage over Welker) third receiver that make make defenses pay deep, these guys are not all bad options. Edelman is an effective slot receiver, Watson is a good tight end when used correctly, and Aiken and Stanback are capable of getting open in the intermediate routes.
  9. Willie55

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  10. swheeler23

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    i have been losing respect for king a lot. Moss was useless yesterday catching the ball but take him out of the lineup yesterday and we wouldve seen how much attention welker and faulk receive. king doesnt seem to have much more football knowledge than any other armchair analyst. Moss is the goat of the week even though the pats won the game. how about the kicker for the cowboys ? Easy to pile on moss because a) his history b)he doesnt respond in the media.
  12. Synovia

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    This is the problem with people who don't actually understand modern football.


    Randy Moss demands double coverage on every play. As long as he demands consistent double coverage, he is helping the offense, whether or not he gets the ball thrown to him. The Panthers doubled him all day, and that left welker, faulk and Watson all in single coverage, and sometimes in no coverage.


    I'll believe Moss is "dogging it" or playing poorly when teams start leaving him uncovered, like they routinely do with Welker.


    That INT was a terrible terrible throw.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2009
  13. KontradictioN

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    Agreed. I think Brady forced that ball into double coverage because he was trying too hard to get Moss involved in the game. Though interceptions like that are typically the fault of the wide receiver, I never blamed Moss for that yesterday. Moss did dog it out there (alligator arms), but that wasn't his fault. Brady even admitted as much yesterday.
  14. Rob0729

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    I disagree with a lot of this. Yes, if Moss left with this receiving corp (either Aiken or Edelman being the #2 WR behind Welker), I say that Welker would struggle to get 3 catches. But if they had a decent starting WR, Welker would be just fine. Remember that Brady has done very well with receivers like Branch, Givens, and Troy Brown and none were as good as Wes.

    Moss does have a history of getting frustrated in games and if you take him out early he does dog it. That is a fact for his career. That is why I was hesitant for the Pats to get him in the first place. Moss dogged it yesterday. There is no defense for that. He has dogged it several times this year. Is he quitting like he did in Oakland? No. But he isn't giving his best effort every game either.
  15. parthasas

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    OK, now did Brady really talk to this Drama Queen over the cell phone after the game ? I never understood why players would call him.

    Assuming this is true, Brady has nothing productive to do while going home :rolleyes:
  16. NSpatsfan

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    Y'know its really hard to believe that a guy who is one of the tops in the league in a number of categories, and playing for a divisonal leading team that is 8-5 would get so much crap. I know that he has had his ups and downs this year but so has Brady, reminds me of the whole "body language" debate about Brady a few years back, maybe we should have dumped Brady then yeesh:rolleyes:
    Its a long season with ups and downs, Moss was a monster in the Indy game, and hauled in a TD pass last weekend, and that is just a taste of how he is done this year, so he had a bad game, so he had two, who elso are you gonna put out there? Someone else mentioned that without him Welker is lucky he gets three passes his way, and I really believe that to be the case. The micoscope this team is under right now is freakin crazy, for those out there that remember, to be leading the division in december is not a right of the New England Patriots. I know that for some you have to criticize, not be happy, because you want more, and I understand that, but wholly hell lay off the man already lets see where we are at at the end of the year, there is still lots of football left!!!
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2009
  17. Tunescribe

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    You're a jerk for that "understand modern football" crap. The issues I posed regarding Moss extend above and beyond what's happening on the field. He has a history of such issues, so don't suggest it's all a matter of between the lines. Everyone knows he draws double coverage on a consistent basis, but this offense has wrinkles designed to put him in favorable matchups (i.e., running him out of the slot, etc.). He should be making more than one or two catches a game, regardless. His short-arming a perfect pass on that slant yesterday is one glaring example of something amiss with the guy. I'm a big fan of Moss, but yesterday he did not play with much effort because he either is playing injured or struggling emotionally, or both. I would never suggest taking Moss out of the lineup, but something needs to be done to light a fire under his butt.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2009
  18. Mark.

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    Drives me nuts-Randy's play is getting more attention than the 13-0 Colts and Saints-Why?
  19. NSpatsfan

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    Haters just hatin.............
  20. emoney_33

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    Brady is doing better this season than he has any other season aside from 2007. I know Brady is amazing and can make do, but let's not fantasize about things. We had plenty of low scoring defensive games with Branch, Givens, Troy etc...

    A fact? Or a media-driven opinion? Funny even with this fact he still puts up monstrous numbers throughout his entire career. According to this fact, all you have to do is double/triple him early and then he'll shut down the rest of the game. Yet he still puts up the numbers he does over his career, funny how that works. Teams focus on him ALL game, the only way not to is with constant pressure on Brady.

    You think he dogged it because the media has branded him as a player that dogs it. Thus you attribute things to him dogging it. Other players could give the same body language and it would be completely ignored by your subconscious. Moss had a bad game, EVERYONE has bad games. Remember the "Brady body language" season, that was just as much rubbish. But people need something to complain about and someone to blame things on.
  21. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    He's not the only talented WR to short arm a pass, and not a single other receiver gets accused of 'dogging' it or quitting or checking out.
  22. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Come on. You can't believe this. Brady is not having a good season, but it has a lot to do with circumstances beyond his control.



    Media driven things like this are based on facts. Yes, Moss has been known to give up in games when he is pressured early. Look at the NFC Championship game in 1999. It isn't that he quits for games on end, but there are individual games where he has been taken out early and dogged it the rest of the game and this has happened many times in his career.



    Don't tell me how I think. I could easily say you think it is a media created falicy that Moss dogs it at times because he is a Patriot and you are a big fan of his. I think there are enough people on this board that will attest that I am not a mindless fan who just regurgertates what the media says. In fact, I have been pretty vocal that overall I think most of the talking heads of the media know less than a lot of the fans (even the former players).
  23. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    He is having a better season than 01, 02, 03, 04, 05 or 06. Are you trying to argue against this? Has 2007 warped your memories that much?





    OK and BB is a scumbag as well then. Let's not pick and choose what we want to believe from the media here. BB is not a good person, rather he's an ego-drive mad man and a cheater! Every receiver has bad games, but for Moss the only way he can have a bad game is when he doesn't try right?





    You could say that true, but AdT is a Patriot and very talented. I want him off the team ASAP. What exactly in Moss' career makes you believe he dogs it, and I do not think body language is a valid argument. Otherwise that means Brady quit on the team some years back
  24. Rob0729

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    Are you serious? Many receivers get called out for dogging it when they do stuff like that. Many of them don't have the name recognition of Moss though so it doesn't become as big of a deal.

    Hey Moss may be injured. That would be a legitimate excuse for his play yesterday, but if not, he was clearly dogging it.
  25. emoney_33

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    They are human too ya know. But we all know Moss is not a physical receiver from the get go, that doesn't make him less valuable than a Givens type of receiver. Sure there are specific plays in a game that you may rather the toughness than the finesse talent of Moss, but overall you want Moss as a whole package over just about every other WR in the game.

    Every single receiver has strengths and weaknesses, Moss' strengths are incredible and far outweigh his weaknesses. That doesn't mean it is right for us to expect perfection, or expect him to have no weaknesses. He had a bad game for whatever reason, the amount of attention and accusing him of dogging it is ridiculous though.

    His mere presence as a decoy yesterday was more valuable than what many other receivers could have given us. 1 catch for Moss is not a useless day, especially when you see the days Welker and Watson were able to have. I'm just saying give the guy a break, enjoy what he brings to the team because once he's done it's likely we'll never see a receiver of his calibur on the team again
  26. SVN

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    i findit hard why moss would dog it suddenly . he certainly is not less motivated. people say the saints game frustated him but try and watch his postgame
    NFL Videos: Patriots postgame press conference
    at the 1:30 mark .
    Does this look like a guy who isnt motivated to play ? 4quarters later suddenly he is being called a quitter and all that ? just unbelievable.
  27. emoney_33

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    BTW other receivers don't get called out for dogging it like Moss. They may get criticized for the specific play, but they do not get accused of checking out, quitting on the team, need babying etc...
  28. alvinnf

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    Anybody ever think Moss is hurt. He tweaked his back earlier in the year. What if he is nursing a bad back. I can't do anything if my back is tweaked. When I watch him play, I see a guy who doesn't seem comfortable in his own body, not a guy who's pouting and quit.......
  29. Rob0729

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    Have you watched the games? He has made many uncharacteristically bad decisions that have helped directly in several of the losses. Again, I don't put all the blame on Brady for that, but there is a lot more to evaluating a QB than his stats line.







    Again, I am going on my own eyes, not the media. I am able to make my own judgments.

    Besides, publically, Belichick is a scumbag. He is a sore loser. He is testy with the media. He did cheat (although the media blew the infraction from jaywalking to mass murder). If I wasn't a Pats fan, I would blast Belichick more for not shaking opposing coaches' hands in many of the losses and the way he handles the press conferences.






    Would you feel the same way about Adalius Thomas if he had 9 to 10 sacks right now, but was a near non-factor the last three weeks? Comparing AD to Moss is a little silly. You can accuse Moss of dogging it for a few games this season, but he is still near the top in most of the receiving categories and has had some All Pro games. Thomas, on the other hand, has been a complete non-factor all year in an area that is significantly lacking for this team (pass rush) and has been talking crap about Belichick this year. I don't know how you can compare the two.
  30. Rob0729

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    Moss has earned a reputation unlike many other receivers. He publically admitted that he was giving up on the Raiders, he walked off the field with a live ball when the ball was intercepted in his direction rather than trying to make the tackle for Minnesotta, he walked back to the dressing room with time left in a game in another game, and against the Giants in the NFC Championship game there were multiple times the camera showing him not even trying to fake running the route when the ball wasn't going in his direction. There is plenty of reasons why the media jumps on him more than another receiver who does it once.
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