Brady is the best according to NY Daily News

[RobertWeathers]

Would you agree that that is an EXAMPLE of leadership? That a poor leader who plays injured does not automatically become a good leader?
Would you further agree that consistently underachieving teams have poor leadership?

I'm not trying to diminish him playing hurt, I'm just saying it is being overstated.
Surely it endeared him to his teammates. But if he is disliked to begin with, it doesnt make him a leader.
My impression of Rivers is that he is a spoiled brat, and not a team player. That was the consensus on him before he played with that injury.
What I am saying is if that is correct, he is not a leader that his teammates look up to because of that game. Being a leader is an every day thing, and it is much harder to earn if you start without the respect.

I am not inside the Charger lockerroom, but if his teammates didnt respect him prior to that game (and it was because of a correct perception) then they still don't. If they doubted him, that may have won them over, if they already respected him, it cemented it.

I think where we disagree is I think they didn't respect him before that and you seem to feel it was one of the other 2 scenarios.

Would you agree that that is an EXAMPLE of leadership? - yes- for TB and PR

That a poor leader who plays injured does not automatically become a good leader?- yes. Only if he has not demonstrated in the past the ability to succeed and perform at his job (TDs, Win games, comeback games, win playoff games, etc.)

Would you further agree that consistently underachieving teams have poor leadership?- For the most part. If the team has zippo for talent, it doesnt matter.

IMO the Chargers wouldnt want to have rivers over to meet the family, but would want to got to war with him on Sunday..

 

[Deus Irae]

First of all, the game was not over if Brown didnt strip the ball. Look at the tape or gamebook.
AFTER the Pats scored AND got the ball back they had plenty of time to score again.

Are you truly saying that completing 43.8% of your passes and having a 55.5 rating when your team wins is 'proof' you can win the big one? Isn't it proof your team preventing you from losing it?

Secondly, I don't consider winning a playoff game, then losing another to be 'winning the big game'. A resume built on winning early round playoff games and never advancing beyond a conference championship is not the resume of a proven winner. At least by my definition. I guess there are many winners in your book.

Great he beat the Colts. Every year but one someone has.

Yes, the game was over, despite your claim. The rest of your post just doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yes, the game was over, despite your claim. The rest of your post just doesn't make any sense at all.

Over in every traditional sense. 2 more 1st downs by the Chargers and g'nite.

 

[Deus Irae]

Over in every traditional sense. 2 more 1st downs by the Chargers and g'nite.

Yep. There seems to be a recent "but there was time" argument being used by more and more people who can't just admit the obvious. I even heard people saying that the Chargers didn't get hosed by Hoculi because they still could have stopped the Broncos.

Anyone watching that Patriots game knew that New England was dead as a result of that pick, right until Troy saved the day.

 

[Ring 6]

Would you agree that that is an EXAMPLE of leadership? - yes- for TB and PR

That a poor leader who plays injured does not automatically become a good leader?- yes. Only if he has not demonstrated in the past the ability to succeed and perform at his job (TDs, Win games, comeback games, win playoff games, etc.)

Would you further agree that consistently underachieving teams have poor leadership?- For the most part. If the team has zippo for talent, it doesnt matter.

IMO the Chargers wouldnt want to have rivers over to meet the family, but would want to got to war with him on Sunday..

Yeah, thats kind of been my point.
I think leadership isn't measured in actions, and frankly isnt measured in ability. I think its an all the time thing.
It also doesnt mean a jerk cant be a leader either, because pushing people when they dont want to be pushed is part of it. (I think immaturity conflicts with leadership, too, which is my issue with Rivers in this area)
That is why I question how him playing that day really is pertinent to a discussion of is he a better QB than ______________, unless of course, _________________ won't play hurt.

 

[Ring 6]

Yep. There seems to be a recent "but there was time" argument being used by more and more people who can't just admit the obvious. I even heard people saying that the Chargers didn't get hosed by Hoculi because they still could have stopped the Broncos.

Anyone watching that Patriots game knew that New England was dead as a result of that pick, right until Troy saved the day.

"Anyone watching knew" is not a sound argument.
Look at the gamebook. We scored, we got the ball back, and we could have scored again.
How can you possilby think there wasn't enough time? Because you remember thinking there wasn't?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Then you have to discount Marinos compiling of stats because they built a team that led to him compiling stats, right?
Take a look at his stats in all of those playoff losses.
He played very poorly in almost all of them.

Marino was a very good QB, but he was flawed. The idea that he had no running game or a bad defense is rationalization in my opinion. The defense was handicapped by the pass first approach, and the running game by design. They created an OL that was GREAT pass blocking, had WRs or FBs at TE, and never tried to build a balanced offense.
If I create an offense that is the best pass blocking offense ever (and it wasnt far from that) and play TEs who can catch but can't block, and allow the QB to have every advantage in the passing game, its crazy to say he was handicapped by not having a running game.
Everything about that team was built around putting the ball in Marino's hands. If we give him sole credit (which everyone does) for all the stats that were amassed because of it, how do we not hold him responsible for the fact that the plan to put the ball in his hands failed to win a championship? It can't be both.

Once again, respectfully disagree. There are plenty of examples of SB champions who had a "finesse" offenses (poor to complimenary running games) but had excellent defenses. Here are a few.

81 49ers
87 Skins
89 49ers
94 49ers
96 Pack
maybe 99 Rams but w/ MF rushing not sure..

I still contend that if you give the 'Fins a tough, solid D, they would have won a SB w/ Marino and not feel that he would need to make a 20 yd completion 15 times a game.

 

[Rob0729]

So Turner became good in 2008, and sucked in 2007?
Pretty much everyone who spoke about football considered it a small dropoff to Turner, and you are saying the Pats could just ignore the run. Be real. Turner was a known quantity then.

I'm not asking how an injury affects his ability to play, Im asking what him playing with that injury has to do with discussing his ability as a QB.

When did I say anything was his fault?

I said I don't consider him playing that day as a reason to consider in judging how good a QB he is.

Turner had 316 yards (half of them came in one game vs. Denver) and 1 TD in 2007. LT had 1474 yards and 15 TDs in 2007. If Turner wore a visor you wouldn't have even known that LT was out of the game. I mean 316 yards is only what a yard or two less than 1474. In fact, he had more yards and TDs last year than he had in his first four years combined. You might want to check your football facts before you post a rebuttal. Until last year, Turner was nothing more than a change of pace back who might be able to take the lead role, but not guaranteed.

I agree you shouldn't judge Rivers based on how he is. That is why I don't put Eli ahead of Rivers because he has a Super Bowl ring.

You are wrong on Turner. People thought he had the potential of being a good back, but no one knew how good he was going to be in Atlanta other than people in the front office in Atlanta. Most people thought Atlanta was crazy to give him the contract they did which in hindsight was a great deal for Atlanta.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, the game was over, despite your claim. The rest of your post just doesn't make any sense at all.

The game was over because you want to say it was????????

The rest of the post?
You say Rivers playing that poorly but winning is proof he can win the big one? I don't think even you believe that.
And it is saying winning one playoff game to lose next week does not fit my definition of winning big games. Does it fit yours?

Answer this question. Have the Chargers underachieved since Philip Rivers has been their QB?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah, thats kind of been my point.
I think leadership isn't measured in actions, and frankly isnt measured in ability. I think its an all the time thing.
It also doesnt mean a jerk cant be a leader either, because pushing people when they dont want to be pushed is part of it. (I think immaturity conflicts with leadership, too, which is my issue with Rivers in this area)
That is why I question how him playing that day really is pertinent to a discussion of is he a better QB than ______________, unless of course, _________________ won't play hurt.

I look at Steve Grogan in a similar way. Statistically, ave career. Wins? Not many significant ones. Leadership: My perception was that the players loved playing with him- neck brace and. all b/c he put the team before his health. Not 100% sure Chargers players appreciated him before the AFCCC, but withthe kind of statement he made, IMO they do now.

You chose to discount that. I dont. Thats cool.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, the game was over, despite your claim. The rest of your post just doesn't make any sense at all.

So, with 6:25 left in the game and an 8 point deficit, a game is over?
Thats what it was.

After that play, we drove to the TD, and tied the game, with STILL 441 left
The Chargers got the ball, and used 1:11 on the clock before punting. We got the ball with 3:30. (Would be 5:14 if you dont count the rest of our drive after Brown stripped the ball)

We drove 8 plays, 72 yards, 2:20 drive to the go ahead FG.
The Chargers STILL had over a minute left.

So what you are saying is that 6:25 isnt enough time for a stop and a drive.
That the FIVE drives that came after that would have only been 1.
That the Chargers would have milked away the entire 6:25 with an 8 point lead, even though they couldnt get a first down with the game tied.

The game wasnt over becuase you were ready to give up hope. There was plenty of time left.

You know you are wrong here. Will you admit it?




(6:25) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle intended for T.Brown INTERCEPTED by M.McCree at SD 31. M.McCree to SD 34
for 3 yards (T.Brown). FUMBLES (T.Brown), RECOVERED by NE-R.Caldwell at SD 32.
Play Challenged by SD and Upheld. (Timeout #1 by SD at 06:16.)
New England Patriots at 6:16
1-10-SD 32 (6:16) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short right to J.Gaffney to SD 25 for 7 yards (Q.Jammer).
2-3-SD 25 (5:35) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to B.Watson.
3-3-SD 25 (5:31) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to J.Gaffney to SD 13 for 12 yards (A.Cromartie). P15
1-10-SD 13 (4:46) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to B.Watson pushed ob at SD 4 for 9 yards (T.Kiel).
2-1-SD 4 (4:41) T.Brady pass short left to R.Caldwell for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P16
TWO-POINT CONVERSION ATTEMPT. K.Faulk rushes up the middle. ATTEMPT SUCCEEDS.
NE 21 SD 21, 5 plays, 32 yards, 1:40 drive, 10:24 elapsed
S.Gostkowski kicks 56 yards from NE 30 to SD 14. A.Cromartie to SD 29 for 15 yards (E.Alexander).
San Diego Chargers at 4:36, (1st play from scrimmage 4:30)
1-10-SD 29 (4:30) L.Tomlinson right tackle to SD 34 for 5 yards (T.Bruschi).
2-5-SD 34 (3:53) P.Rivers pass incomplete short left to V.Jackson (E.Hobbs).
Timeout #2 by SD at 03:46.
3-5-SD 34 (3:46) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to E.Parker (A.Samuel).
4-5-SD 34 (3:42) M.Scifres punts 51 yards to NE 15, Center-D.Binn. K.Faulk pushed ob at NE 15 for no gain (K.Osgood).
New England Patriots at 3:30
1-10-NE 15 (3:30) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep middle to D.Graham to NE 34 for 19 yards (T.Kiel). P17
1-10-NE 34 (2:52) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to D.Graham (R.Godfrey).
2-10-NE 34 (2:45) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to K.Faulk [S.Cooper].
Timeout #2 by NE at 02:42.
3-10-NE 34 (2:42) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep right to R.Caldwell ran ob at SD 17 for 49 yards. P18
1-10-SD 17 (2:31) C.Dillon left end to SD 15 for 2 yards (M.McCree).
Timeout #3 by SD at 02:18.
2-8-SD 15 (2:18) C.Dillon right tackle to SD 12 for 3 yards (C.Polk).
Two-Minute Warning
3-5-SD 12 (2:00) C.Dillon up the middle to SD 13 for -1 yards (L.Castillo, S.Cooper).
Timeout #3 by NE at 01:14.
4-6-SD 13 (1:14) S.Gostkowski 31 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-M.Cassel.
NE 24 SD 21, 8 plays, 72 yards, 2:20 drive, 13:50 elapsed
S.Gostkowski kicks 69 yards from NE 30 to SD 1. M.Turner to SD 25 for 24 yards (E.Alexander).
San Diego Chargers at 1:10, (1st play from scrimmage 1:05)
1-10-SD 25 (1:05) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass short middle to A.Gates to SD 39 for 14 yards (C.Scott). P20
1-10-SD 39 40) P.Rivers pass short right to A.Gates to SD 43 for 4 yards (C.Scott).
2-6-SD 43 24) P.Rivers spiked the ball to stop the clock.
3-6-SD 43 24) P.Rivers pass deep middle to E.Parker to NE 36 for 21 yards (A.Hawkins). P21
1-10-NE 36 24) P.Rivers spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-NE 36 08) N.Kaeding 54 yard field goal is No Good, Short, Center-D.Binn, Holder-M.Scifres.

 

[Ring 6]

I look at Steve Grogan in a similar way. Statistically, ave career. Wins? Not many significant ones. Leadership: My perception was that the players loved playing with him- neck brace and. all b/c he put the team before his health. Not 100% sure Chargers players appreciated him before the AFCCC, but withthe kind of statement he made, IMO they do now.

You chose to discount that. I dont. Thats cool.

I'm simply saying it is a piece of the puzzle not the whole story.
I would assume almost every starting NFL QB has taken enough of a beating and still played that he has earned his teammates respect with toughness. I just dont think Rivers is different because the extent of what he was playing through was public. (ie Brady and the sportshernia for example)

 

[Deus Irae]

"Anyone watching knew" is not a sound argument.
Look at the gamebook. We scored, we got the ball back, and we could have scored again.
How can you possilby think there wasn't enough time? Because you remember thinking there wasn't?

The argument is fine. You, as a homer, are arguing against it. Me, as one who tries to be more realistic, accept it. I can't talk about momentum and game changing plays when referring to Patriots losses against the Broncos and Colts without admitting to the same when the situation is reversed.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So, with 6:25 left in the game and an 8 point deficit, a game is over?
Thats what it was.

After that play, we drove to the TD, and tied the game, with STILL 441 left
The Chargers got the ball, and used 1:11 on the clock before punting. We got the ball with 3:30. (Would be 5:14 if you dont count the rest of our drive after Brown stripped the ball)

We drove 8 plays, 72 yards, 2:20 drive to the go ahead FG.
The Chargers STILL had over a minute left.

So what you are saying is that 6:25 isnt enough time for a stop and a drive.
That the FIVE drives that came after that would have only been 1.
That the Chargers would have milked away the entire 6:25 with an 8 point lead, even though they couldnt get a first down with the game tied.

The game wasnt over becuase you were ready to give up hope. There was plenty of time left.

You know you are wrong here. Will you admit it?




(6:25) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle intended for T.Brown INTERCEPTED by M.McCree at SD 31. M.McCree to SD 34
for 3 yards (T.Brown). FUMBLES (T.Brown), RECOVERED by NE-R.Caldwell at SD 32.
Play Challenged by SD and Upheld. (Timeout #1 by SD at 06:16.)
New England Patriots at 6:16
1-10-SD 32 (6:16) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short right to J.Gaffney to SD 25 for 7 yards (Q.Jammer).
2-3-SD 25 (5:35) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short right to B.Watson.
3-3-SD 25 (5:31) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to J.Gaffney to SD 13 for 12 yards (A.Cromartie). P15
1-10-SD 13 (4:46) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to B.Watson pushed ob at SD 4 for 9 yards (T.Kiel).
2-1-SD 4 (4:41) T.Brady pass short left to R.Caldwell for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P16
TWO-POINT CONVERSION ATTEMPT. K.Faulk rushes up the middle. ATTEMPT SUCCEEDS.
NE 21 SD 21, 5 plays, 32 yards, 1:40 drive, 10:24 elapsed
S.Gostkowski kicks 56 yards from NE 30 to SD 14. A.Cromartie to SD 29 for 15 yards (E.Alexander).
San Diego Chargers at 4:36, (1st play from scrimmage 4:30)
1-10-SD 29 (4:30) L.Tomlinson right tackle to SD 34 for 5 yards (T.Bruschi).
2-5-SD 34 (3:53) P.Rivers pass incomplete short left to V.Jackson (E.Hobbs).
Timeout #2 by SD at 03:46.
3-5-SD 34 (3:46) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass incomplete short right to E.Parker (A.Samuel).
4-5-SD 34 (3:42) M.Scifres punts 51 yards to NE 15, Center-D.Binn. K.Faulk pushed ob at NE 15 for no gain (K.Osgood).
New England Patriots at 3:30
1-10-NE 15 (3:30) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep middle to D.Graham to NE 34 for 19 yards (T.Kiel). P17
1-10-NE 34 (2:52) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to D.Graham (R.Godfrey).
2-10-NE 34 (2:45) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to K.Faulk [S.Cooper].
Timeout #2 by NE at 02:42.
3-10-NE 34 (2:42) (Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep right to R.Caldwell ran ob at SD 17 for 49 yards. P18
1-10-SD 17 (2:31) C.Dillon left end to SD 15 for 2 yards (M.McCree).
Timeout #3 by SD at 02:18.
2-8-SD 15 (2:18) C.Dillon right tackle to SD 12 for 3 yards (C.Polk).
Two-Minute Warning
3-5-SD 12 (2:00) C.Dillon up the middle to SD 13 for -1 yards (L.Castillo, S.Cooper).
Timeout #3 by NE at 01:14.
4-6-SD 13 (1:14) S.Gostkowski 31 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-M.Cassel.
NE 24 SD 21, 8 plays, 72 yards, 2:20 drive, 13:50 elapsed
S.Gostkowski kicks 69 yards from NE 30 to SD 1. M.Turner to SD 25 for 24 yards (E.Alexander).
San Diego Chargers at 1:10, (1st play from scrimmage 1:05)
1-10-SD 25 (1:05) (Shotgun) P.Rivers pass short middle to A.Gates to SD 39 for 14 yards (C.Scott). P20
1-10-SD 39 40) P.Rivers pass short right to A.Gates to SD 43 for 4 yards (C.Scott).
2-6-SD 43 24) P.Rivers spiked the ball to stop the clock.
3-6-SD 43 24) P.Rivers pass deep middle to E.Parker to NE 36 for 21 yards (A.Hawkins). P21
1-10-NE 36 24) P.Rivers spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2-10-NE 36 08) N.Kaeding 54 yard field goal is No Good, Short, Center-D.Binn, Holder-M.Scifres.

Look at the scenario w/o Troy saving the day. 6;25 left. pats have 3 TOs remaining. Chargers have the ball on their 34. Tomlinson had been running up and down all day. Figure BB will see what happens on the 1st set of downs. 45 sec clock x 4 downs = 2min. down to 425 left best case. either chargers punt or get a newset of downs= 2 more min. 225.

Is it possible? I admit, yes. is it likely. No.

 

[Ring 6]

Once again, respectfully disagree. There are plenty of examples of SB champions who had a "finesse" offenses (poor to complimenary running games) but had excellent defenses. Here are a few.

81 49ers
87 Skins
89 49ers
94 49ers
96 Pack
maybe 99 Rams but w/ MF rushing not sure..

I still contend that if you give the 'Fins a tough, solid D, they would have won a SB w/ Marino and not feel that he would need to make a 20 yd completion 15 times a game.

None of those offenses really equate to the Dolphins though. The 9ers were not averse to running the ball, and their passing game was a controlled short passing attack.
The 80s were a different era that the mid-late 90s.
The teams you are listing were never built to throw at the expense of anything else. The Dolphins were. And in that era, throwing that much and that aggressively put additional pressure on the defense, (see Chargers). More pertinent to the discussion though, is that the SUCCESS of the Dolphins pass happy offense created success for the opposing offenses, thereby diminishing the STATISTICAL rating of the Miami defense.
In other words, the Dolphin defenses didnt suck, their style of offense made their stats look worse.

See its the opposite, IMO. The team was built around Marino NEEDING to throw like he did the team was built around them WANTING him to do that, and everyone else had to adjust to it.

 

[Ring 6]

The argument is fine. You, as a homer, are arguing against it. Me, as one who tries to be more realistic, accept it. I can't talk about momentum and game changing plays when referring to Patriots losses against the Broncos and Colts without admitting to the same when the situation is reversed.

The fact that you decide to throw in an insult where it ha no place (how can whether the game was over with or without a play have anything to do with being a homer) shows you know you are wrong.
You are telling me that one play determines momentum and that momentum means there is absolutely no chance a team can come back from an 8 point deficit with 6:25 left?
No chance that we stop them and get the ball back? No chance we force a turnover? No chance after a 3 and out we get a big return? No chance they eat 4 1/2 minutes and Brady drives us to a TD in the last 2? None of those could possibly happen right?
You know you are wrong. It will be interesting to see if you are capable of admitting it.
PS...Its fine to say you didnt realize there were 6:25 left, and that we not only scored, we got a 3 and out, and still had 4 1/2 on the clock and drove ANOTHER 72 yards to the go ahead FG., if it makes you feel better.

 

[Ring 6]

Look at the scenario w/o Troy saving the day. 6;25 left. pats have 3 TOs remaining. Chargers have the ball on their 34. Tomlinson had been running up and down all day. Figure BB will see what happens on the 1st set of downs. 45 sec clock x 4 downs = 2min. down to 425 left best case. either chargers punt or get a newset of downs= 2 more min. 225.

Is it possible? I admit, yes. is it likely. No.

Of course it is, in fact, it pretty much happened. AFTER we scored we stopped them and got the ball back and drove 72 yards for a FG.
If your argument is that the Chargers didnt try to make first downs when the game was tied, and would have with an 8 point lead, its a pretty weak argument.

 

[Ring 6]

The argument is fine. You, as a homer, are arguing against it. Me, as one who tries to be more realistic, accept it. I can't talk about momentum and game changing plays when referring to Patriots losses against the Broncos and Colts without admitting to the same when the situation is reversed.

And the argument is abysmal because you take a memory of what 'everyone thought' and present it as fact.
I didnt think that, so your fact is invalidated because I am part of everyone. You know thats a terrible argument. Will you admit it?

 

[Deus Irae]

And the argument is abysmal because you take a memory of what 'everyone thought' and present it as fact.
I didnt think that, so your fact is invalidated because I am part of everyone. You know thats a terrible argument. Will you admit it?

No, because I don't agree with you. Using your logic, Brady's turned into a crap ass quarterback in the playoffs who's screwed the pooch 3 consecutive times. Again, as one who tries to be more realistic, I can't apply different standards the way you are. However, I'm not going to waste my time on this any further. It's taken a pretty good thread and turned it into a Twilight Zone episode.

 

[Ring 6]

No, because I don't agree with you. Using your logic, Brady's turned into a crap ass quarterback in the playoffs who's screwed the pooch 3 consecutive times. Again, as one who tries to be more realistic, I can't apply different standards the way you are. However, I'm not going to waste my time on this any further. It's taken a pretty good thread and turned it into a Twilight Zone episode.

You dont agree that with 6:25 left we could have still won the game? Who is making up standards to support their argument now?