Brady is the best according to NY Daily News

[Deus Irae]

On Flacco, I never put him there. Just asked.

I understand. I was just trying to explain my placement of him. If it seemed like anything else, I posted poorly and I apologize.

 

[Rob0729]

On Brees, I certainly agree that Brees belongs up there right after Tommy, Peyton and Ben (would put him ahead of Ben except for that annoying matter of his two rings), but you make the point yourself that Giants fans would make in reply: great QB's don't have "December swoons." I think he belongs above Eli, but saying so in a NY paper today is another matter. That's all I was implying.

I agree re McNabb and said so several posts ago, but disagree re Rivers; no matter how much we might not like it, Eli delivered in 07/08 when it counted. Rivers has yet to do so.

So the Giants fans would argue that Brees isn't a great QB because he has December swoons like Eli? Eli in December last year had 2 TDs total in four games. He didn't throw for over 200 yards in a game during that stretch. His first and only playoff game last year he got 169 yards, 0 TDs, and 2 INTs. By comparison, Brees had 10 TDs and threw for over 350 yards twice in the month of December. He had a swoon by his comparisons, but his swoon would have major improvement for Eli on his season numbers. Championships really is only a fair comparisons when you compare two QBs of a similiar level or a multiple winner like Big Ben.

Brees' swoon was enough to knock him out of MVP contention, but was still better than most of the QBs in the league. Eli's swoon made him pretty mediocre.

As for Rivers, he is better than Eli by a wide margin. You put Rivers on that Giants Super Bowl team and they might have won by two TDs. Rivers hasn't delivered in part because he played without an ACL in the AFC Championships and last year because the Chargers' defense fell apart. People put far too much emphasis on championships. By that logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

So the Giants fans would argue that Brees isn't a great QB because he has December swoons like Eli? Eli in December last year had 2 TDs total in four games. He didn't throw for over 200 yards in a game during that stretch. His first and only playoff game last year he got 169 yards, 0 TDs, and 2 INTs. By comparison, Brees had 10 TDs and threw for over 350 yards twice in the month of December. He had a swoon by his comparisons, but his swoon would have major improvement for Eli on his season numbers. Championships really is only a fair comparisons when you compare two QBs of a similiar level or a multiple winner like Big Ben.

Brees' swoon was enough to knock him out of MVP contention, but was still better than most of the QBs in the league. Eli's swoon made him pretty mediocre.

As for Rivers, he is better than Eli by a wide margin. You put Rivers on that Giants Super Bowl team and they might have won by two TDs. Rivers hasn't delivered in part because he played without an ACL in the AFC Championships and last year because the Chargers' defense fell apart. People put far too much emphasis on championships. By that logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino.

Did you read what I wrote? I accepted and agreed that Brees belongs ahead of Eli and agree with what you write. I wasn't defending the Giants' fans hypothetical view, only stating it. I was making the point that Giants fans would use his "swoon" to argue otherwise and that, therefore, Gary was going against the grain in New York to do what he did. That's all I said. Cheesh. Brees is a vastly superior QB to Eli Manning. There. Is that clear enough? That said, Brees still has to deliver the goods. I keep him among the elite on my list because I think he deserves to be there and a few bad weeks don't change that; however, any more late season "swoons" and I start to question that.

As for Rivers, I do just plain disagree. Your defense of Rivers reads, to me, like a series of excuses; QB's who need that many excuses made for them are not superior to QB's who did what Manning did that year until they prove otherwise either by a body of stats over time or by winning a championship, neither of which Rivers can show. Rivers' 3-3 record is just OK in the post season. Like it or not, Eli put together a terrific run at the end of the 07 season and into the playoffs. He got it done. Rivers, so far, hasn't. We're just not going to agree on that one.

As for your Dilfer zinger, give me a break. Dilfer, as I said to Deus, is the QED of mediocre QB's winning SB's. In addition, he had six seasons after winning that SB to prove it wasn't a fluke and, obviously, failed to do so. So, the comparison with Marino is rhetorical and gratuitous, given Dan's body of work over a long career.

 

[Deus Irae]

As for your Dilfer zinger, give me a break. Dilfer, as I said to Deus, is the QED of mediocre QB's winning SB's. In addition, he had six seasons after winning that SB to prove it wasn't a fluke and, obviously, failed to do so. So, the comparison with Marino is rhetorical and gratuitous, given Dan's body of work over a long career.

Other than the Super Bowl run, Manning's been a below average QB for the vast majority of his career. Manning IS Dilfer, to date.

 

[swheeler23]

Coming back from the knee injury Brady could have an adjustment period. I hope the Patriots win those games so people give Brady a chance to settle in.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady
Manning
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Brees
McNabb
Warner
Palmer

Personally, I don't think there's any real question that all 8 of those quarterbacks are better than Manning. That makes Manning #9 before you even get into debates. I'd personally put Hasselbeck there, too, but he was injured a lot of last season, so I could see where people would debate the issue. So, that puts Manning somewhere in the mix with:

Hasselbeck
Ryan
Cutler
Pennington
Schaub
Cassel
Rodgers
Romo
Ryan

which means that Manning could be reasonably be slotted anywhere from 9-19, depending upon how someone's internal debates break down.

Edwards
Clemens/Sanchez
Flacco
Quinn/Anderson
Collins/Young
Garrard
Orton
Russell/Garcia
Campbell
Rosenfels
Stafford
Delhomme
Bucs QB
Niners QB
Bulger

That would be the list to clearly put below Manning, IMO. Yes, Eli won a Super Bowl because fortune favored him, but we're talking about a career 76.1 passer rating and a 98/74 TD/INT ratio.

At this point shouldnt Eli and SB be compared to Dilfer and SB rather than the greats who have won them?
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I still view the Giants SB run being despite, not because of, Eli.

 

[Ring 6]

So the Giants fans would argue that Brees isn't a great QB because he has December swoons like Eli? Eli in December last year had 2 TDs total in four games. He didn't throw for over 200 yards in a game during that stretch. His first and only playoff game last year he got 169 yards, 0 TDs, and 2 INTs. By comparison, Brees had 10 TDs and threw for over 350 yards twice in the month of December. He had a swoon by his comparisons, but his swoon would have major improvement for Eli on his season numbers. Championships really is only a fair comparisons when you compare two QBs of a similiar level or a multiple winner like Big Ben.

Brees' swoon was enough to knock him out of MVP contention, but was still better than most of the QBs in the league. Eli's swoon made him pretty mediocre.

As for Rivers, he is better than Eli by a wide margin. You put Rivers on that Giants Super Bowl team and they might have won by two TDs. Rivers hasn't delivered in part because he played without an ACL in the AFC Championships and last year because the Chargers' defense fell apart. People put far too much emphasis on championships. By that logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino.

Rivers had his shot at the 2007 Patriots and lost, with better talent around him. I dont know how you can make a statement like you did.

 

[Rob0729]

Did you read what I wrote? I accepted and agreed that Brees belongs ahead of Eli and agree with what you write. I wasn't defending the Giants' fans hypothetical view, only stating it. I was making the point that Giants fans would use his "swoon" to argue otherwise and that, therefore, Gary was going against the grain in New York to do what he did. That's all I said. Cheesh. Brees is a vastly superior QB to Eli Manning. There. Is that clear enough? That said, Brees still has to deliver the goods. I keep him among the elite on my list because I think he deserves to be there and a few bad weeks don't change that; however, any more late season "swoons" and I start to question that.

As for Rivers, I do just plain disagree. Your defense of Rivers reads, to me, like a series of excuses; QB's who need that many excuses made for them are not superior to QB's who did what Manning did that year until they prove otherwise either by a body of stats over time or by winning a championship, neither of which Rivers can show. Rivers' 3-3 record is just OK in the post season. Like it or not, Eli put together a terrific run at the end of the 07 season and into the playoffs. He got it done. Rivers, so far, hasn't. We're just not going to agree on that one.

As for your Dilfer zinger, give me a break. Dilfer, as I said to Deus, is the QED of mediocre QB's winning SB's. In addition, he had six seasons after winning that SB to prove it wasn't a fluke and, obviously, failed to do so. So, the comparison with Marino is rhetorical and gratuitous, given Dan's body of work over a long career.

And did you read my post? Only a moron fan would argue what you stated because Brees' swoon which brought him from an elite QB caliber to a top 5 QB caliber was better than Eli did at his best last year. So you are arguing that since Brees went from considerably better than Eli to just a decent amount better than Eli in December, that a Giants fan could argue that Eli was better. Sorry, I believe your point was wrong whether you agreed with the argument or not.

I disagree with your point about Rivers. Peyton Manning broke several single season records in 2004, but hadn't won a Super Bowl at that point. It didn't change the fact he wasn't one of the best of all time or better than many of the other top QBs who have won Super Bowls in the past, but clearly weren't better. I argue that talentwise Eli isn't close to Rivers. The Giants won the Super Bowl against the Patriots (in a season where Eli was mediocre for a large part of it) because the defense shutdown the highest scoring offense of all time, not because Eli played well (because he didn't since he should have been intercepted twice and probably sacked on that game winning drive). When one QB is clearly more talented than the other, one Super Bowl win doesn't then become the deciding factor for who is better.

As for the Dilfer reference, I was using a hyperbole to prove my point. If Dilfer was a fluke, how do we know that Eli isn't? Eli played like crap and the Giants were spanked last year in the playoffs. Since Eli came to the Giants, the Giants have gone to the playoffs in four seasons and been one and done in three of the four playoffs. Sounds kinda flukey to me. Let's see Eli get to the NFC Championships again before we say that he deserves any more credit than Dilfer for winning a Super Bowl. The team needed him to step up last year in the playoffs and he skunk up the joint.

Let's face it. The year that the Giants won the Super Bowl, if Rivers had his ACL they might have won the Super Bowl instead of the Giants. I have confidence that the Pats still would have won, but who knows. To say that Eli is better than Rivers just because the Giants defense shut down Brady and the offense and won one game vs. a competitor that the Chargers lost to with Rivers playing after he had his ACL removed is a little silly. If the Giants were consistently going deep into the playoffs under Eli, I could agree with you. But Eli is 0-3 in the playoffs if you take away the Super Bowl run.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Other than the Super Bowl run, Manning's been a below average QB for the vast majority of his career. Manning IS Dilfer, to date.

In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.

 

[Rob0729]

Rivers had his shot at the 2007 Patriots and lost, with better talent around him. I dont know how you can make a statement like you did.

He only had one ACL in that game. Let's see Eli play with one ACL. So are you not going to give Rivers a little bit of credit of playing with an incredible injury and having the biggest baby RB in the league. Also, Merriman's knee was already shreaded at that point too. Or you going to say that if a QB has his ACL removed just days before a game that he is clearly playing at 100%.

Also, I would argue that Eli had a more talent anyway. LT took himself out of the game in the first series. So the running game was virtually gone for the Chargers. The Giants arguably had a better defense especially in the front four. I don't think Rivers had better talent around him with LT out of the game and Merriman playing at far less than 100%. At that point in the playoffs, I would have taken the Giants' talent over the Chargers due to injuries and the Giants being better equipped to stop Brady with their front four.

Edit: Also Gates was less than 100% in the game with a toe injury.

 

[Deus Irae]

In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.

Now you're equating individual talent with team talent, something you were arguing against with Warner.

 

[RobertWeathers]

In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.

I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.

Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.

my .02$

 

[Ring 6]

In a 13 year career, Dilfer only took a team to the playoffs twice, threw more INT's than TD's and ended up with a Pass Rating just a little above room temperature, at 70.1. I can't believe that I've boxed myself into the corner of defending Eli (whom I don't even like), but in four seasons as a starter, Manning has taken his team to the Playoffs every year and won an SB. He's no Brady/Peyton/Ben but he's not Trent Dilfer either.

He is, however, closer to Dilfer, as a QB who happened to be on a SB Champ than to Brady, Montana, etc, great QBs who led their teams to Championships.
Frankly, Eli has a lot more career in front of him than behind him. IMO, if his play doesnt improve, he wont see another title, and will go down as a mediocre QB. He certainly has the chance to BUILD ON that championship, but it alone doesnt separate him, IMO, from other QBs who play better but havent been on a champion as of yet.
Part of crediting QBs with the success of the team is having that success be sustained and not a one shot deal, which is usually despite the QB. He has a Manning-esque 0-3 playoff record outside of that 2007 season.
If Eli's last name was Washington, he'd be considered a high draft pick who has yet to prove himself.

 

[Rob0729]

I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.

Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.

my .02$

Eli isn't Dilfer, but his Super Bowl win could be a fluke like Dilfer's was. I wouldn't be shocked if Eli never sees another NFC Championship game.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, Rivers threw for 4009 yards and 34 TDs vs. 11 INTs last year (his best year). Eli's best year was 2005 when he threw for 3762 yards, 28 TDs, and 17 INTs. Eli's production has been declining ever since (although last year he did cut down significantly on the INTs at least until the playoffs). I think five years from now, it will be a joke to even consider Eli in the same class as Rivers. And I hate Rivers and his smugness with a passion. I just think he is a superior QB to Eli.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.

Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.

my .02$

Career numbers:

Manning: 42-29 (.592)
Rivers: 33-15 (.688)

Manning: 4.3 TD%
Rivers: 5.5

Manning: 3.2 INT%
Rivers: 2.5

Manning: 98/74 TD/INT ratio
Rivers: 78/36

Manning: 76.1 passer rating
Rivers: 92.9

It's not even close. Statistically speaking, Manning can't hold Rivers' jock.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree. Eli (as much as it pains me to say it) blows Trent Dilfer out of the water. Hes 42-29 as a starter, 4 -straight 3k yd 20td seasons and a SB.
We'll see how well he does this year, but all in all he has had a pretty decent career so far.

Is he better than Rivers? Statistically speaking they are close. But IMO Rivers is a better QB - even though he doesnt have a SB, but he is 33-15 as a starter and playing hurt in the 07 playoffs impressed the hell out of me.

my .02$

3000 yards and 20 TDs only means you were the starter.
If you throw out the 1-6 rookie year, thats an average of 10.5 and 5.5. The question is when the QB completes only 56% of his passes, and has a rating in the 70s, is that record because of or inspite of him?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

And did you read my post? Only a moron fan would argue what you stated because Brees' swoon which brought him from an elite QB caliber to a top 5 QB caliber was better than Eli did at his best last year. So you are arguing that since Brees went from considerably better than Eli to just a decent amount better than Eli in December, that a Giants fan could argue that Eli was better. Sorry, I believe your point was wrong whether you agreed with the argument or not.

I disagree with your point about Rivers. Peyton Manning broke several single season records in 2004, but hadn't won a Super Bowl at that point. It didn't change the fact he wasn't one of the best of all time or better than many of the other top QBs who have won Super Bowls in the past, but clearly weren't better. I argue that talentwise Eli isn't close to Rivers. The Giants won the Super Bowl against the Patriots (in a season where Eli was mediocre for a large part of it) because the defense shutdown the highest scoring offense of all time, not because Eli played well (because he didn't since he should have been intercepted twice and probably sacked on that game winning drive). When one QB is clearly more talented than the other, one Super Bowl win doesn't then become the deciding factor for who is better.

As for the Dilfer reference, I was using a hyperbole to prove my point. If Dilfer was a fluke, how do we know that Eli isn't? Eli played like crap and the Giants were spanked last year in the playoffs. Since Eli came to the Giants, the Giants have gone to the playoffs in four seasons and been one and done in three of the four playoffs. Sounds kinda flukey to me. Let's see Eli get to the NFC Championships again before we say that he deserves any more credit than Dilfer for winning a Super Bowl. The team needed him to step up last year in the playoffs and he skunk up the joint.

Let's face it. The year that the Giants won the Super Bowl, if Rivers had his ACL they might have won the Super Bowl instead of the Giants. I have confidence that the Pats still would have won, but who knows. To say that Eli is better than Rivers just because the Giants defense shut down Brady and the offense and won one game vs. a competitor that the Chargers lost to with Rivers playing after he had his ACL removed is a little silly. If the Giants were consistently going deep into the playoffs under Eli, I could agree with you. But Eli is 0-3 in the playoffs if you take away the Super Bowl run.

I stick by what I said about Brees, both positive and wondering. As for the kind of fan who would make the referenced argument, I've heard a lot of positions articulated that I otherwise can't fathom when folks talk about their teams, so I'll stick by what I wrote in that regard as well.

I just disagree on Rivers. To me, your argument still reads like a list of excuses and there's nothing you say that alters the view I put forward in my other post. Where we really disagree here is on the precedence that "winning" takes over "if's," "might's" and "would have's." But, this horse is beat dead and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I take your point that you were exercising hyperbole re Dilfer and Marino.

 

[Rob0729]

Career numbers:

Manning: 42-29 (.592)
Rivers: 33-15 (.688)

Manning: 4.3 TD%
Rivers: 5.5

Manning: 3.2 INT%
Rivers: 2.5

Manning: 98/74 TD/INT ratio
Rivers: 78/36

Manning: 76.1 passer rating
Rivers: 92.9

It's not even close. Statistically speaking, Manning can't hold Rivers' jock.

I agree. The ONLY thing Eli has over Rivers is the Super Bowl ring. And he got that ring in a game where he didn't actually play well and his defense shutdown the best offense arguably ever for most of the game. As much as I hate to admit it, Rivers is clearly the better QB. I don't hate Eli. I would rather be able to say that he is better QB.

 

[Ring 6]

Career numbers:

Manning: 42-29 (.592)
Rivers: 33-15 (.688)

Manning: 4.3 TD%
Rivers: 5.5

Manning: 3.2 INT%
Rivers: 2.5

Manning: 98/74 TD/INT ratio
Rivers: 78/36

Manning: 76.1 passer rating
Rivers: 92.9

It's not even close. Statistically speaking, Manning can't hold Rivers' jock.

I agree with the regular season conclusion.
I still have a nagging feeling about Rivers that he will always fail in the big game. He hasn't had enough chances to prove that yet, and frankly Manning is in the same boat, but for his 2007 defense.